Wiring a starter for a 267 small block

I'm a newby and I'm stuck. I have a '52 F1 with a 1980-ish Chevy 267 small

block and Chevy transmission. The starter was clicking 20 or 30 times before

the engine would fire up. I replaced the battery which did not help.

So, I bought a replacement starter. Advance Auto parts said I needed a

Tough1one P3502S, so I put that in.

The wiring is the problem. I wired it the same as the old one: On the

solenoid: battery cable and a heavy gauge red wire and a lighter gauge black

wire to the big main terminal, no wires to the 2 small terminals below the

main. Then a small black wire to the back of the starter where there is 1 small

terminal.

Nothing happens when I turn the key. I tried moving wires on the solenoid to

several combinations on the three posts, always leaving the battery cable on the

large post. Nothing worked.

Anybody know what to do? Now I'm not sure if this even the right

starter.

Thanks in advance.

Are the connections on the new starter the same as the old one? Post a picture of the solenoid and connections especially the one on the back. Then we can see what you have.

I hope this picture makes sense. This is the new starter solenoid, the red engine block to the right and the starter motor below. The old starter went to Advance Auto Parts. At the top is the gold colored large post. Like the old one, I attached the same three wires to the big post. I attached no wires to either small silver post. You can see them left and right of the big gold post. At the bottom you can see that copper colored post with the blue paint on the top and a flat curved piece of copper, that connects to the starter. I didn't mess with that. Not shown is a wire going to the rear of the starter where there is one small post. All this, I wired exactly like the old starter.

Seems to me if Advance Auto sold the solenoid they should be able to tell you what the terminals are for. My experiance has been when I go to Advance or Auto Zone I'm usually waited on by a person that knows little more than punching computer keys. When I go to my local NAPA store that's owned by the original owners son's they not only know how to find the correct part but can give me correct answers to any questions. A little late in your case but for the future you may want to seek out a store like mine. ................Bob

Most old GM starters used the small post to the right to energize the starter. I don't know about the connector on the back. Would like to see a picture of it. Put power to the small post on the right and see if it cranks.

Seems to me if Advance Auto sold the solenoid they should be able to tell you what the terminals are for.

Stop it! You're killing me!

Seriously, to the O.P.:

The small "S" terminal on the solenoid (the one closest to the block in your photo) is connected to the START wire from the ignition switch. The other small terminal (the "R" terminal) is the bypass terminal that bypasses the ignition resistor and applies full 13.8 volts to the coil for starting. If you jump the S terminal to the large terminal with the battery cable, the starter should energize. Be sure you have a proper ground cable to the block, also.

Now you'll here my ignorance about this. I'm having trouble tracing where the wires come from. Other than the battery cable, I have a red wire that is pretty heavy gauge, and a black wire that's a smaller gauge. I'm thinking you mean the heavy red wire goes to "S" terminal, the lighter black wire to the "R" terminal, and a jumper from "S" to large terminal with battery cable. Sound right?

On the ground wire, I'm trying to learn: I read somewhere the starter being bolted to the block provides the ground. Wrong Info? Could the terminal on the back of the starter motor, pictured below, be used for the ground?

What gauge wire should I use as jumper?

Both wires I need to connect to the S and R terminals have ring connector loops larger than the nuts on the terminals. When I use a washer above and below the loop, they connect fine. Is that acceptable or should I change the ends to smaller loops?

Greatly appreciate your advice!

Now you'll here my ignorance about this. I'm having trouble tracing where the wires come from. Other than the battery cable, I have a red wire that is pretty heavy gauge, and a black wire that's a smaller gauge. I'm thinking you mean the heavy red wire goes to "S" terminal, the lighter black wire to the "R" terminal, and a jumper from "S" to large terminal with battery cable. Sound right?

On the ground wire, I'm trying to learn: I read somewhere the starter being bolted to the block provides the ground. Wrong Info? Could the terminal on the back of the starter motor, pictured below, be used for the ground?

What gauge wire should I use as jumper?

Both wires I need to connect to the S and R terminals have ring connector loops larger than the nuts on the terminals. When I use a washer above and below the loop, they connect fine. Is that acceptable or should I change the ends to smaller loops?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]295511[/ATTACH]

Greatly appreciate your advice!

I'm no Ford wiring expert, so you need to check to see if the heavy red wire only gets +12V when the key is in the START position. The black wire from the R terminal should go to the + terminal of the coil. As for the temporary jumper, I usually use a screwdriver.

When I connect the heavy red wire to the "S" terminal, there is no power to anything, no lights, no nothing.

Part of your problem is you have a 12 volt, neg ground, Chevy engine of unknown age in a 6 volt, pos ground, ford with no idea where the wiring harness came from or what may have been changed. Trying to identify wires by color in your mash up of parts is just plain silly. Randomly connecting wires to random terminals just to see what will happen is a good way to let the smoke out of something. You need to understand how and why your starting system works and then find the proper circuit to get it to do so.............Bob

Why in the wide world of sports would anyone in a sane state of mind swap a 267 ci (metric) SBC into anything? I had an 82 El Camino with this engine and it had a top speed of about 60 MPH on level ground with its maximum rated load of 1/2 ton. With no load it might make 80 with a good tail wind. Worst V8 engine ever.

Go buy a 350 or 400 CI SBC with a TH350 trans for $300 or less and pay someone that has some basic mechanical and simple electric knowledge to make the engine swap and straighten out the wiring mess. The engine is a bolt in. Take the 267 to the scrap dealer where it can get a dignified death in a Chinese blast furnace.

If it was me and the 52 F1 is in good shape, has no major damage or rust problem and the original front and rear suspension and steering, I would find a good 49 thru 53 Mercury flathead V8 (255 CI) and return it to stock configuration. This would cost a few shekels but would be worth it to me. I would pay more for a stock F1 than for one butchered with a SBC engine.

Bob, you've got me wondering. My engine is stronger that what you're describing in your 267. I have relied on the # on the block, which is 471511, a 267 from 1979 to 1982. But the numbers are worn and could be 4715111, which is a 305 from 1980. Is there any way to know for sure?

There is a reason the 267 metric was short lived and GM 86'ed it in 82. If it has enough power pull the hat off a p_ss ant it's not a 267. I don't know much about Chevy engine serial and casting numbers but do know that the blocks are the same casting but one is finished metric and one finished SAE could be same casting number. The stamped numbers on the machined pad on the front of the block tell the tale. It is coded to date, use (car, truck) HP, assembly plant, etc. If you have the numbers you can find the codes over on the Chevy forum or links found there.

Back to the original question. The positive cable from the battery goes to the big terminal at the top of the solenoid. I believe the heavy (10 guage) wire with the large ring connector should go to the alternator. I may be wrong about the 10 guage but I think that is how the alternator charges the battery. The S post on the solenoid should go to the start terminal of the ignition switch with a 20 gauge wire. The R terminal on the solenoid should go to the plus terminal on the coil with a 20 gauge wire. The bottom large terminal on the solenoid should be connected to the starter by a solid copper connecter coming out of the starter. There should NOT be any other wires connected to the starter or solenoid. The negative cable from the battery should be connected to the engine block or head.

To check the ignition switch, jump the battery terminal to the start terminal on the solenoid and the starter should engage and run. Remove the jumper and try to start with the switch, if the starter does not engage the problem is either the switch or the wire from the switch to the solenoid. Is the truck set up to start by turning the ignition key or by the original push button in the instrument panel?

A new wiring harness was put in 3 years ago, but that guy had to go back to Afghanistan. He calibrates night vision for fighters and Abrams. Smart cookie. But I can't ask him. So, it does start with a key. I wired it the way you describe and went to the ignition switch and get nothing. Is there a fuse for the ignition that may have blown?

My point in my last post was that without knowing the wiring in the truck for certain, I'd start testing using either a voltmeter or a test light. With the 10 gauge wire not connected, test the voltage on it with the key off, in RUN, and in START. If there is only voltage in the START position, that wire should be connected to the S terminal on the starter.

As for the starter not working, time for a little basic troubleshooting. With the starter out of the truck, use jumper cables to connect the starter case to the negative terminal of the batter and the large threaded stud to the positive terminal. Use a heavy wire or screwdriver to briefly short the S terminal to the large threaded post. The starter should spin and the bendix drive should kick out. If that works, the starter should be good and the problem is elsewhere.

With a known good starter, install it on the engine. Ensure the battery cables are in good condition, with the ground properly connected to the block. Use a starter switch or other temporary means to again short the S terminal to +12V. This should make the engine turn over. If not, your battery or cables or ground are bad. If this works, now you just need to trace the starter wire from the ignition switch.

Ok, Based on things said in all of the above posts the thing that needs to be done is the wiring needs to be traced out before anything really useful can be determined. With that said... Based on a statement in one of the above posts, the large red wire appears to be the feed wire to the electrical system (stated above: with the red wire disconected 'nothing' works, no lights etc...). Based on this, I think the red wire needs to be connected with the battery cable to the large post, make this connection. Now for the other wires... leave all of the other wires disconected (including the one on the back of the starter). With this done you should be able to switch the key to on/run and get gauges etc (assuming electric gauges). Also, the lights should work. If this is right then proceed, if not you are going to need to trace out all of the wiring. I think it will be OK.... Next step, Jump with a test wire/screwdriver whatever, the S terminal to the battery terminal (big terminal), the started should engauge and crank, BE SURE THE RIG IS OUT OF GEAR. If it cranks proceed, if not check battery, battery cables and ground to block, frame and battery. When you get it to crank with the jumper, proceed. Next, with a test light or volt meter have a helper hold the key in the start position and check the wires left loose in step one for voltage referenced to ground (engine block). One or more should have power. Release the key and leave the key in the run position. One of the wires (or wire) that had power in the start position should now NOT have power. Confirm that this wire has power in start and not in run. This wire connects to the 'S' terminal on the starter, connect it now. If you cannot find a wire that switches power with the key in the start position, you probably have a blown fuse or other problem which you will need to trace out, this is beyond my ability to describe here, sorry. If all is good as above the engine will crank with the key. Now this leaves two wires disconected. If one has power with the key switched between off and run it will most likely be the 'R' terminal. The other one ?????? Now another possibility based only on what has been described above, is that the wire you connected tot he back of the starter may be the 'start' wire and it blew a fuse on the first try as it might have been connected to a rear ground terminal, who knows. I am suspicious about the wires with the large ring terminals as they seem to be wanting to go to the large battery terminal on the starter. This is a common place for people to snag power for add-on stuff... Anyway, this is a basic simple way to go after this problem with basic tools and test equipment. Good Luck and keep us posted.

R

Some of those old Fords have a post on the solenoid that needs to go to a ground to crank. The ground would be provided by a neutral safety switch.

So make sure its in neutral.

Robin, THANKS for the step by step. I'll know tonight, weather permitting.

Here's what happened: First, I was able to trace the small black/brown wire that was connected to the terminal on the back of the starter motor and it goes to what I guess is a neutral safety switch. It sits on top of the transmission and has linkage to the transmission. The other wire plugged into the neutral safety switch is purple and I'm pretty sure it goes thru the firewall and up the steering column. Picture:

Test results: With only the battery cable and thick red wire connected to the battery terminal, with the key on, I have power, lights, etc., no starter sound when key moved to start position. With key on, I jumped from battery terminal to "S" terminal and starter activates.

Black/brown wire that goes to the neutral safety switch hanging loose has no current and still none when the key is switched to start.

Black wire, that on the previous starter was connected to the battery terminal, when hanging loose is hot with just the key in the on position. It remains hot when the key is turned to start.

So, since black is always hot, I decided to put it on the starter battery terminal, and remove the thick red wire from the battery terminal so I could test that way. I have power, lights, etc. and the thick red is hot all the time, even with the key off and removed from the ignition switch. It remains hot with key on and key moved to start.

I'm thinking, this is insane, the starter I'm replacing lasted 11 years and all three wires, +battery, thick red and black all connected to battery terminal. Black/brown hooked to terminal on back of starter motor. That starter had only a battery terminal and an "S" terminal on the solenoid, no "R" terminal. And it had a terminal on the back of the starter motor. Below is a picture of that one. ANY HELP SORTING THIS OUT WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Ok,

The wire that goes to the switch on the transmission is "probably" the 'S' terminal wire. The ignition start circuit has probably been rerouted through the neutral safety switch on the transmission. What you need to do next is check for power on the purple wire on the transmission switch when the key is On/Start. It is possible that the switch is bad or out of adjustment or that there is a fuse that was blown if the black/brown wire was grounded when you tried to start the first time. The most reliable thing to do now is to trace where the purple wire goes. If you can do that and let us know what you find we can offer more help. Will wait to hear....

R

That's not an electrical terminal on the back of the starter. Some starters had a brace to the block that mounted to the back of the starter. The threaded stud is to fasten the brace to the starter. You could use it to fasten a ground to but that's not what it was for.

Thanks all for sticking with me on this, It looks like Saturday I can dive back into getting this right.

Whohoo! Success. Thanks Robin and all contributors. Robin your detailed procedure is greatly appreciated, it found the problem. Apparently a bad neutral safety switch. Neither the Black wire nor the pole from nss had power with switch in start, the purple on the other nss pole did have power in start. Took both wires off nss, connected them, put black on 's' pole, got power and engine fired right up. Maybe I somehow killed the nss. Or, as Robin said, maybe it got out of adjustment. Also, this AM I found and replaced 3 blown fuses: Radio & wipers (i have neither) and fan. I might have caused that too. So I replaced all the fuses. Do these circumstances indicate for certain the nss is bad?

Life is good. Napa had the nss. Fit perfect. Fired right up.

Glad to be able to help. Just pay it forward if someoe asks about something you can help with . Hope you will be enjoying your car soon.

R

Robin, Definitely will pay it forward. I have 1 lingering concern: that black wire that tested hot with the key off. Wouldn't that drain the batter?

It is really hard to tell as the car has had a transplant. My first thought is that it might be power for some add-on or such. The only way to really know is to trace where it goes and how it is connected to the rest of the electrical system. I would expect that the proper connection for this wire would be to the 'R' terminal of the starter, BUT that means that the resistor or resistor wire to the coil is there and correctly wired. I would not assume anything at this point. One thing you might want to check is the coil voltage, as this will tell you if there is a resistor in the coil circuit like there should be. To check this do the following (assuming a point type distributor)... with the key off, remove the distributor cap and make sutr the points are closed. If unsure simply short out the points with a clip or wire. Turn the key ON only, not to the start position. With a DC volt meter measure from a GOOD ground to both sides of the coil. One side will measure 0 volts or very nearly 0. The other terminal will measure somewhere between 6 and 12 (battery) volts. If this voltage is 6-9 volts, then there is a resistor and life is good. If the voltage is close to battery voltage, then there is no resistor and the coil will run hot and points will wear very quickly. If no resistor then you really should investigate upgrading for reliability and long life of the ignition system. There are several ways to do this but really beyond being explained here. In a normal system the ignition resistor is bypassed when starting to provide a hotter spark to aid cold starts. This is provided by the 'R' terminal (resistor) on the starter solonoid when cranking. Let us know what you find...

R

I'm pretty sure my distributor is electronic ignition. I'm going to try and trace the 2 unknown wires from the starter this weekend. I think one goes to the coil and one to the alternator.

Thanks again for all your input.

The one that goes to the coil would normally be the one to go to the 'R' terminal, but I am not absolutely sure in this case. Hopefully someone else here with more knowledge of newer systems will chime in. I really tried to give up on automotive work when they removed the ETHEL gas pumps :cool:.... obviously I failed as both the wife and myself drive fairly modern GMC trrucks...

R

My frkking toner batteries died & they're so weird I had order them off amazon.

I haven't given up on this. Got my toner working all new batteries, but, apparently it's too wimpy. I cant pick up a signal 1 foot away from the contact point. I gotta think of something else to get this done. I get a huge signal at the point of contact but move upn the wire 1 foot, no signal. I think it's a phone man's type toner. I've used to trace phone and cat-5 cable loads of time, no problem.

with the 267 and there factory electronic ignition (if it still remains), there is not an R terminal on the solenoid. The R terminal on the starter you bought it is just making the starter more universal fit. Do not connect anything to it if the engine still has its electronic ignition.

Good luck, Joel