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NOTICE! Buy/Sell Posting Changes!


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http://forums.aaca.org/f119/buy-sell-forum-suggestions-buyers-sellers-202656.html

Please review the posting rules linked above. We have changed the rules about posting "pricing" from "must" to "strongly suggested". Also please make note that we DO NOT challenge a poster's asking price. You may think its nowhere near correct, he may think it is correct. It's up to the purchaser to barter the best deal.

Thank you,

Wayne

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Thanks for the notice, Wayne. Can you explain what the thoughts

were, behind the new posting policy?

I always felt that the (former) requirement of putting a price

in the ad was a good one:

---It didn't waste buyers' time inquiring about a car.

(Some people fail to put in e-mail or phone or location,

and are therefore "unknowns" hard to reach.)

And it didn't waste sellers' time answering inquiries

from people who couldn't afford a car.

---Its transparency helps ensure honesty and helps eliminate fraud.

Remember, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!"

A bunch of ads without prices would be nothing but frustrating.

Would you shop for a new car with a a dealer who

didn't have the required sticker listing prices?

AACA has members from dogcatchers to billionaires, so nothing

is beyond our buyers' range. That closed-car Packard may be more

affordable than you think!

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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Thanks for the notice, Wayne. Can you explain what the thoughts

were, behind the new posting policy?

I always felt that the (former) requirement of putting a price

in the ad was a good one:

---It didn't waste buyers' time inquiring about a car.

(Some people fail to put in e-mail or phone or location,

and are therefore "unknowns" hard to reach.)

And it didn't waste sellers' time answering inquiries

from people who couldn't afford a car.

---Its transparency helps ensure honesty and helps eliminate fraud.

Remember, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!"

A bunch of ads without prices would be nothing but frustrating.

Would you shop for a new car with a a dealer who

didn't have the required sticker listing prices?

AACA has members from dogcatchers to billionaires, so nothing

is beyond our buyers' range. That closed-car Packard may be more

affordable than you think!

I agree 100 percent. If a seller doesn't know how much he wants for his items, he should research this before he decides to advertise it. If a seller is "fishing" for a price, he should market his items through an auction. In my 30 years in dealing with vintage vehicles, I have never advertised an item without an asking price. I also buy a lot of cars and parts and never respond to ads that do not have a quoted price.

Edited by motoringicons (see edit history)
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You guys did not read the original Buy/Sell rules, which state...... "It is NOT okay for forum users to make negative comments on a seller's listing, nor is it okay to question its asking price."

This particular statement was posted from day one on this "buy/sell" forum. You notice that I did not say "discussion" forum. We have been letting this slide for some time now, but discussing what someone wants for their for-sale item or making negative remarks about their items has gotten us to where we are today. If there are any questions, either pm the poster or e-mail them if an e-mail address is posted. If you get no answer from your request you can "tag" the post, and a moderator will help out.

Wayne

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..... I also buy a lot of cars and parts and never respond to ads that do not have a quoted price.

And, that would how I would handle it, Motoring, not respond. As antique car lovers we all do our best to guide others, but if they do not, or will not post prices, you are left to "contacting" them and offering a price. They can take it or leave it.

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---Its transparency helps ensure honesty and helps eliminate fraud.

Remember, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!"

A bunch of ads without prices would be nothing but frustrating.

Would you shop for a new car with a a dealer who

didn't have the required sticker listing prices?

I just did that John, on a new SUV. The list price meant nothing. I knocked $10,000 off that price, then another dealer I was working with got mad because I didn't come back to him, for what he said could have saved me another $1000.00.

In the end pricing, whether on "stickers" or on for-sale sites, mean nothing until the "dealing" gets done. After all it's just a guide.

Got to go back to work guys...later!

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Wayne, I'm still not sure my question was answered,

as far as the thoughts behind the change. Either that,

or I didn't understand. Were you saying that pricing is

now optional, because people were critiquing asking prices?

Or are you saying some "list prices meant nothing,"

so why bother to list a price?

I'm sure most frequent users HAVE read the buy/sell suggestions.

In fact, we've helpfully referred newcomers to them.

I hope sellers will continue to list prices. Prices make the

forum much more relevant!

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That's why I suggested a couple of times that For Sale posts should be locked, no comments whatsoever can be posted if it's in the FS category, if you have a question about something for sale, then email or PM the original listing person.

That way, people don't get offended, people don't make comments based on partial or incomplete listings, and so forth. The ONLY person who should be able to add anything to a For Sale post is the original poster....

I've always felt strongly that would-be sellers should post a price, and not just go "fishing" for an offer....but everyone has their own way of doing things...

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Interesting idea, Trimacar, though I'd very much contend

against locking For-Sale and Wanted ads against any replies.

Questions (not critiques) about for-sale ads are extremely

important, and can save AACA members thousands of dollars.

I recall one car listed which, it turned out, had title problems;

another one, a former AACA President noticed, had several

things incorrect.

Such things must, of course, be done courteously and tactfully:

"Mr. Seller, is that upholstery a style that Chevrolet offered in 1958?"

That's not a criticism that would offend anyone.

"Do you have a clear title to the car?"

"Is that the same car that was for sale in Hershey?"

Seeing others' questions and answers are important,

and they can even sift out fraud. Just as light dispels darkness,

criminals flee from the light of Truth--or come not to the light,

lest their deeds be reproved.

The HCCA's website (allowing no other postings) is excellent,

but AACA's format has been very helpful in a different way.

If AACA allowed no responses, it would be no better than

any of the myriad car-for-sale sites on the internet, most

of which have far more cars for sale.

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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David, as I moderate firmly on the issue of 'No discussion related to pricing or condition of for sale items' in the Buick forum, I agree that could be a fix (albeit a bit extreme in my opinion) for the problem. However in the Buick forums there are a lot of "For Sale-Not mine" referral postings of cars and parts from other media such as eBay, CL, Hemmings etc. These posts are typically of good deals on cars/parts which is of benefit to folks looking for such but also generate interesting discussions about often times some rare cars or hard to find parts. And since these are "referrals" of non forum members cars, discussion of prices is allowed therefore again generating more interesting discussions.

Since I followed suit in making the "Price not required" change to buy sale guidelines in the Buick forum, there is similar discussion of this change there. There as here, I am seeing the general consensus being that users prefer Pricing be a requirement and they have offered some good supporting commentary for same.

I am wondering if the Buy/Sell page could be reconfigured to include a space in the Subject line for "Price" that would require filling out in order for the Ad to be posted.

I have seen some of the downright rude responses some users have made to often time innocent new users posting items for sale that leave that poster with a bad impression of the forum culture here. There are also numerous Reports from users about ads without Pricing that the mods have to deal with daily. (Reports is what happens when you want to report an infraction to the rules and click on the ! In the triangle at the bottom of each post and it goes to the mods for fixing) So I appreciate that there is indeed a problem that needs to be dealt with but just not sure the appropriate fix has been arrived at.

Thanks to all for the thoughtful viewpoints and opinions

Edited by MrEarl
Deleted text regarding adding a Referral prefix (see edit history)
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Guest AlCapone

Wayne. One of the significant advantages of this site is availing ourselves of the significant knowledge possessed by others. Especially in the very old and rare categories the experts on the site can provide guidance to those of us that are less knowledgable. That was evident in the last couple of days. Not allowing them to critique a car or price works to the disadvantage of all members. I know that I personally appreciated their assistance and I am sure many others did also.

Wayne

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I think that people who've dealt with old cars for a while don't mind the criticism, but as mentioned, it's the "newbies" that will get a bad impression of old car people when they post a car for sale and the comments are in the "Are you crazy?" category.

I have a 1910 Hudson project that's for sale, $9000 by the way just to keep with posting a price thought, and one day surfing the web ran across another forum discussing my advertisement. They basically were saying that I was nuts advertising a car "with no body" for such a price. I just laughed it off. While it's true that you couldn't sell a '66 Mustang "with no body", a brass car is a different matter. Someone can fabricate a body, make a speedster, or even use a period body that's laying around (and they are available, I was just offered an Elmore body!).

Let the comments remain, then.....but everyone should try to keep comments friendly of course...

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One GREAT thing I appreciate about the AACA's forum

is that postings are kept for years and years. You can

look back to see what cars were for sale 1 or 2 or more

years ago; and if you didn't like a price then, very likely

that car is still for sale. Its price is likely more flexible,

and the owner, too, is probably thrilled that someone called!

For instance, I once called about a Stutz that was for sale

in Hemmings' magazine a year before; it was still available.

(I went to see it; it was reasonable; but I bought something else.)

One dealer had a 1935 Buick victoria coupe for sale for

at least 4 years.

The typical car-for-sale site on the internet has ads that

expire, so any mining of the archives is impossible.

In that respect, keep up the good work, AACA!

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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If for-sale listings were locked, the A.A.C.A. site would be little different from

www.cars-for-sale.com, www.autotraderclassics, etc.

I would then tend to use those other car-for-sale websites instead,

since their offerings are much broader.

I gather that the idea is to ensure courtesy on the A.A.C.A. Forum,

though I think one could simply disallow criticism while still mandating prices.

Regardless of how it's done, let's make the A.A.C.A. Forum better and better. Ever upward!

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I think ads should require paid memberships, or at least make those who like to clog the pages with outrageously priced vehicles and bump them "TTT" every few days, pay for their ads. There are some that just post ads and do nothing else. I'm tired that my membership dues give such "users" a free ride.

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I am wondering if the Buy/Sell page could be reconfigured to include a space in the Subject line for "Price" that would require filling out in order for the Ad to be posted.

This is the fix I would prefer to see!

Perhaps it would be appropriate to poll the forum users whether price should be a "must" or "strongly suggested" or "optional" and let the majority rule.

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I think the first question on 99 percent of buyers minds is how much is an item. Nothing more frustrating than having to sit through a half hour sales presentation by the seller only to find out the car is not in your price range. I know I will rarely respond to an ad without a price figuring the seller wants a fortune or atleast well above market.

It would be nice if there was a way to set it up to require that and the location before submitting the ad.

This is a great site and you guys do a great job taking care of it. Thanks.

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I agree on the long sales presentation. I think I've told this story before, through the grapevine I heard about a brass ca I'd been longing for that was for sale. Called the gentleman, I knew the car so wanted to know the price. He wouldn't tell me, and spent almost an hour talking about car and all the things he'd done to and with it, including stories of trips and breakdowns and fixes and people he met and on and on.

He finally told me the price after I insisted, and it was three times what the car was worth at the time. Guess I heard some good stories, but I hung up aggravated and frustrated.

Unless you're a total newbie to the hobby, you have a price in mind for the car, and putting a car out there for offers is an awful practice. I've made offers on cars before, but with the understanding that the offer is good right that second, if not taken offer is no longer good, otherwise the would-be seller will just use your offer as a "bid" and go on to the next guy....

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Auburnseeker, you're right that a car's price is the

first thing on everyone's mind.

Talking to one hobbyist who I know has an 8-figure

annual income (when you get into that $10,000,000-plus

range, your income tends to become public knowledge),

I told him about a car for sale. His first question was,

"What's he asking for it?"

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And as long as the Forum moderators are listening to

recommendations, here is one more to consider:

Please separate the huge lump-sum category into

"Cars for Sale"

"Cars Wanted"

"Parts for Sale"

"Parts Wanted"

Hemmings has long had such break-downs; so does

the excellent Horseless Carriage website, though that

has a different format.

As the single unsorted category currently exists, items go

away down the list in just a day. That encourages

more people to refresh their ads with "BTT" etc.

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Just because you have big money doesn't mean you don't care about it, in fact, that's probably why you have big money in the first place!

I had a friend, now departed, who was quite wealthy, and had a collection of about 50 Full Classic cars, most of them open and all of them beautiful. He'd go to an auction, see a car or cars he wanted, and write down a price. If the bidding went under that, he bought it. If it went $100 over, he'd quit bidding.

Then, too, I had an uncle who went to jail for making big money. It was about a quarter inch too big in either direction......

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And as long as the Forum moderators are listening to

recommendations, here is one more to consider:

Please separate the huge lump-sum category into

"Cars for Sale"

"Cars Wanted"

"Parts for Sale"

"Parts Wanted"

Hemmings has long had such break-downs; so does

the excellent Horseless Carriage website, though that

has a different format.

As the single unsorted category currently exists, items go

away down the list in just a day. That encourages

more people to refresh their ads with "BTT" etc.

One more missed sub category......... What is this worth? For the newbies or the fishermen!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Thoughtful discussion-you will never please everyone, but the forum overall does a pretty good job.....

As has already been stated, no price and no interest on my part, but that is certainly the sellers prerogative.

When it is not priced, 99% of the time it is way overpriced.

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I think the first question on 99 percent of buyers minds is how much is an item. Nothing more frustrating than having to sit through a half hour sales presentation by the seller only to find out the car is not in your price range. I know I will rarely respond to an ad without a price figuring the seller wants a fortune or at least well above market.

It would be nice if there was a way to set it up to require that and the location before submitting the ad.

This is a great site and you guys do a great job taking care of it. Thanks.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

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From what I understand is that the moderators aren't the ones that make these policies. You can't blame them.

I don't like that prices are not required anymore. I may not renew my membership come next year. I don't feel like funding a free lunch for posters who feel they can abuse this site and insult our members.

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Now you have a 1st time and only time poster in the Buy/Sell that wants to sell a street rod named "Gladys" and only provides a link to his self serving ebay auction where he notes the highly customized 1964 Buick LeSabre has "24's" on front and "26's" on the back and has a custom paint job and interior etc and you want the membership to just pass on over it? Just let it be?

Pretty soon, with this policy, the FoSale ads will fill up with non sensical street rod for sale links for the ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE CLUB OF AMERICA.

Does this mean the AACA should start allowing a Modified section on it's show field since it condones the advertising of street machines for profit of 3rd parties that have NO interest in joining an Antique Auto club?

http://forums.aaca.org/f119/introducing-gladys-rare-2-door-1964-a-387571.html

Absolutely not. This ad was not placed because of the rule change.

The rule was changed in an effort to get MORE new advertisers to post a price, because too many were posting without a price.

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Occasionally we hear the suggestion that the Forum's for-sale

ads should allow no comments. A recent case shows why

comments are extremely valuable.

On a recently active thread, a seller was offering a 1942

Chrysler Imperial parade phaeton, reportedly with a Derham body.

Knowledgeable members asked him probing but polite questions

on the Forum and even posted a picture from the Derham files

showing what a parade phaeton looked like.

It became quite clear that there were discrepancies in

the seller's account--which he never answered. People think

that his offering was a chopped sedan.

This discussion could have saved a buyer potentially tens of thousands

of dollars. Imagine a buyer's disappointment

(and substantial loss of money) if the seller's statements

went unquestioned.

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Occasionally we hear the suggestion that the Forum's for-sale

ads should allow no comments. A recent case shows why

comments are extremely valuable.

On a recently active thread, a seller was offering a 1942

Chrysler Imperial parade phaeton, reportedly with a Derham body.

Knowledgeable members asked him probing but polite questions

on the Forum and even posted a picture from the Derham files

showing what a parade phaeton looked like.

It became quite clear that there were discrepancies in

the seller's account--which he never answered. People think

that his offering was a chopped sedan.

This discussion could have saved a buyer potentially tens of thousands

of dollars. Imagine a buyer's disappointment

(and substantial loss of money) if the seller's statements

went unquestioned.

I couldn't agree more. There is also the possibility that a member owned the car previously and has information that a potential buyer should be made aware of by private message or email. If you lock the thread or discourage meaningful questions and comments it may well end up costing one of our members a lot of money needlessly.

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Prices should be questioned on the forum. Some sellers just don't realize they have overpriced by more than 50% of the value and will wonder why they get no contacts. Sometimes a seller will be told he is overpriced and will add more info/photos that justify the higher price, sometimes will just be infuriated that someone has the gall to question his blatant attempt to profiteer at someone elses expense, other times will just pull the post and go to the other sites out there that don't allow comments. Most will just usually add a price or location when they left it out or ask why the poster thinks it is overpriced starting an ongoing post about why this or that commenter thinks the price is fair or not. Education is a wonderful thing but thin skins usually get ripped apart in the process.

Edited by ghostymosty (see edit history)
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  • 1 month later...

Now there's an early Cadillac listed on the forum without

an asking price and only a vague geographical indication

of where this new poster really is from. Three different

respondents have asked the poster for a price.

Are you sure the "price-less" policy is working to the

advantage of members? I hope the AACA does humbly

listen to the ideas in this forum.

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Now there's an early Cadillac listed on the forum without

an asking price and only a vague geographical indication

of where this new poster really is from. Three different

respondents have asked the poster for a price.

Are you sure the "price-less" policy is working to the

advantage of members? I hope the AACA does humbly

listen to the ideas in this forum.

It's sellers like this that pi$$ me off the most that seem to expect us to do all the work for them. I think it's pure arrogance on their part

Do our membership dues support individuals like this? I'd like to see them booted and there listing deleted promptly. Better yet, I think they should be charged for listing based on how little information they post. If they post with all the things we expect to see then it could be no charge.

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If you are counting "votes" I am in favor of making location and price absolutely mandatory. If they want advice on pricing the General Forum would be the place for that question. I am also strongly in favor of allowing members to (politely) comment on pricing levels and especially on questions relevant to authenticity and titling .. those are questions of general interest and could indeed prevent one of our members from making a several thousand dollar mistake.

If it is felt that a member perhaps needs a reminder of just what constitutes "polite" a PM could be sent by the moderator (or moderators to take personalities out of it) explaining the error of their ways and threatening suspension from posting for a period of time - works on other boards.

Just my two cents

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