How to make Artillery Wheels

I have repeatedly tried searching without luck, for videos, papers or tutorials on how to make Artillery Wheels. There are a couple of videos on making carriage wheels on YouTube, however they are of no use since the carriage wheels go together differently and their load-bearing principle is different from that of the artillery wheel.

Could anyone post a link to any video/instruction or paper on how to make Artillery Wheels ? Are there any books on the subject ?

What style/year are you looking to reproduce?

The only video I know of that shows making artillery wheels, is a film shot in the Ford plant showing the manufacture of Model Ts. A few seconds of the film show a man assembling the spokes into a wheel on a big press. If you look around Youtube you should find it.

I am looking for a quite substantial discourse on the subject. For example

- What should the diameter of the felloe wood be in relation to the felloe band, i.e. how much shrink fit.

- Standard / recommended dishing angles

- Setup for turning/copying spokes with oval / non-round profiles

- Should spokes center end be resting on the hub center, or should the just be wedged against each other with a gap to the center ?

- Spoke center end wedge forming - all hand fitted or recommended setup/jigs for precision routing/sawing

- Dowelling between felloe parts ?

- etc....

What would the Chinese do? Cut one apart and reverse engineer (copy) it. For different sizes scale up/down................Bob

There are a few wheelwrights around who make artillery wheels for early cars and horse drawn carriages. They could supply all the info you need. Why reinvent the wheel so to speak.

Well, reinventing the wheel is exactly what I am trying to avoid by asking here for pointers to information. I know no wheelwrights around my place who deal in artillery wheels. I think there are some doing carriage wheels, however, as I said above, they are different, and I don't think that the building methods for those are relevant to artillery wheels.

Might help if we knew where you are located...............Bob

Oslo, Norway :cool:

Are there any horse people in the country,,up north

If there any shops tending to the needs of carriages // wagons

The Severns style wheel hub is somewhat similar to the auto hub,,,

The crew on the 1908 trip-Race-- around the world,built a wheel

in Turkey I think,,

The info is hiding there somewhere,,,

Seems like I recall a paperback book,,a series,,,

Bodies,,,Tops,,Upholstry,,,Wheels,,and so on

Cheers,,Ben

Oh boy............. If you do have carriage wheel wrights within visiting distance I would think they could offer some valuable insights on fabrication methods if you could show them an artillery wheel. I would be surprised if some did not already have some experiance with them................Bob

This article may help a little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_wheel

If you can find a wheelwright who makes carriage wheels he will probably know how to make artillery wheels or know someone who does. Then all you need to do is arrange an apprenticeship.

Is this all in theory ,or do we have a make and model to refer to??

There are lots of details different here,,

Mr Calimer seasons his wood,,makes the wheel,,but you cant have it til its up

to room humidity,,,,,in say 4-6 months,,,his wheels are tight,,tight....

Its his grandfathers business,,as run by his father,,living museum,really,,

Cheers ,Ben and no he does not have much new tools....

Years ago we had a set of artillery wheels made for a 1920 Overland by the wheelwright at Colonial Williamsburg. Very little difference between wagon wheels and auto wheels other than size and shape. Given a pattern I would think any wheelwright could produce a set.

The crew on the 1908 trip-Race-- around the world,built a wheel

in Turkey I think,,

Russia... the wheel was made in central Russia by a peasant wheelwright who, very oddly, spoke and read Latin.

There is a guy on the Willys Overland forum who made wheels for his 1930 Whippet. Looks like he did some really nice work. If you check out WOKR.org, follow the link to the forum then search for "Whippet Wheels", the gentleman uses the handle "Eagle". He has some pictures posted and a little bit about his method. I bet he could steer you in the right direction for more information.

Hope this can be of some help.

Greg H.

Here's a link to his post on WOKR.

http://www.wokr.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=612&highlight=Whippet+Wheels

The WOKR forum post seems the most promising so far. I will register on that forum and try to contact the guy.

Thanks !!

Interesting,never thought about the oval spokes.The round spokes I think I could do.

I think the spokes are turned on a Blanchard lathe,,the

one that turns/shapes gun stocks,,but it could be

by hand for just four,,

Panhard-Levassor DISHED the wheel arterillery

style,,the rear axle spindles were NOT in the same plane!!

Not sure who else did this,,,The Panhard also had 14spoke

wheels on the rear,,

Has the problem of rim hardware been addressed??

Cheers,,Ben

The absolutely, extremely, important questions are all about what kind of wheel you need to make? The year, make, model, maybe even body style and certainly weight requirements along with desired quality for finishing and even how fast the vehicle is expected to be driven. We must know the dimensions of the hub, diameter of the felly, size of spokes including their diameter, length for each part of the spokes overall length, are the fellies wood or are they steel, what are the dimensions of that felly, what kind of end of the spoke fits into what kind of hole in the felly?

Are you wanting to make a single wheel or a full set for one car? Or are you wanting to set up a shop to make wheels for maybe hundreds of cars?

All of these things need to be known in order to give proper answers.

A 1910 model T wheel is absolutely nothing like a 1929 Cadillac wood wheel. How they are put together is very different. There are spoke designs that would amaze you how they are assembled.

The Model T Ford Club of America discusses wheel repair and restoration on its forum quite often, With a well worded google search, you should be able to find a couple dozen threads on the subject. A lot of the information will be model T specific. But a lot of it also would be good for similar wheels of any car or continent.

http://www.mtfca.com/

We even have some regular contributors from your corner of the world. They may be able to help you with sources and supplies or maybe even shops to get work done.

Wood is also very important. Generally speaking, Oak should NOT be used. But there are exceptions where it is recommended. Hickory wood, proper growth (if I recall correctly, I believe it is "second growth" Hickory that is best?), and properly seasoned (aged) is generally considered the overall best wood choice for wheel spokes.

Good luck in your quest!

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I see what you have written, but I don't understand that the points that are listed is needed to develop general knowledge of the making of artillery wheels. Considerations regarding speed, type of vehicle etc. were (hopefully) taken into consideration back when the wheel that one is working on was designed for the car in question. As to the dimension of spokes, felloes and hubs, that's the easy part - one only has to measure up the dimensions of the old wheel, or if all the wheels on the car are gone, ask someone who has one to measure it up.

I do not think that the mentioned factors influence greatly the basic principles of how the loads are taken in the wheel, and consequently how the preloads in the wheel assembly should work. Nor do I think that it will make much difference in the general tooling required.

As far as I see it, there are two basic felloe designs ; steel, or wood with a steel felloe band, and two basic hub designs : spokes sandwiched between hub halves (most common), or with a steel flange fastened to the spoke ends to make the wheel demountable from the hub like a modern wheel.

The critical questions are as I see it, some of those that I posted in an earlier post :

- Rule of thumb for the diameter of the felloe wood be in relation to the felloe band, i.e. how much shrink fit / preload on the wheel ?

- Should spokes center end be resting on the hub center, or should they just be wedged against each other with a gap to the hub center ?

- If the answer is the former - how can one then ensure sufficient preload wedging the spokes together so that the centers don't come loose ?

- If the answer is the latter - how can one ensure that the wedge surfaces settle against the next spoke exactly such that the wheel is round ?

- Spoke center end wedge forming - all hand fitted or recommended setup/jigs for precision routing/sawing

I think that anyone could copy the basic dimensions of the wheel parts, and make something that to the eye looks like the real thing. However the challenge must be in getting the wheel tight and true, and ensure that it stays that way.

My feeling is that much of the secrets here must lie in the sequence that assembly and fitting operations are performed, alignment tools, and in the minute over/under dimensioning of parts in relation to their nominal, that is needed to give the proper preloads keeping the wheel tight.

Check out www.calimerswheelshop.com. Looks like they know wheels and may be able to answer your questions.

I see what you have written, but I don't understand that the points that are listed is needed to develop general knowledge of the making of artillery wheels. Considerations regarding speed, type of vehicle etc. were (hopefully) taken into consideration back when the wheel that one is working on was designed for the car in question. As to the dimension of spokes, felloes and hubs, that's the easy part - one only has to measure up the dimensions of the old wheel, or if all the wheels on the car are gone, ask someone who has one to measure it up.

I do not think that the mentioned factors influence greatly the basic principles of how the loads are taken in the wheel, and consequently how the preloads in the wheel assembly should work. Nor do I think that it will make much difference in the general tooling required.

As far as I see it, there are two basic felloe designs ; steel, or wood with a steel felloe band, and two basic hub designs : spokes sandwiched between hub halves (most common), or with a steel flange fastened to the spoke ends to make the wheel demountable from the hub like a modern wheel.

The critical questions are as I see it, some of those that I posted in an earlier post :

- Rule of thumb for the diameter of the felloe wood be in relation to the felloe band, i.e. how much shrink fit / preload on the wheel ?

- Should spokes center end be resting on the hub center, or should they just be wedged against each other with a gap to the hub center ?

- If the answer is the former - how can one then ensure sufficient preload wedging the spokes together so that the centers don't come loose ?

- If the answer is the latter - how can one ensure that the wedge surfaces settle against the next spoke exactly such that the wheel is round ?

- Spoke center end wedge forming - all hand fitted or recommended setup/jigs for precision routing/sawing

I think that anyone could copy the basic dimensions of the wheel parts, and make something that to the eye looks like the real thing. However the challenge must be in getting the wheel tight and true, and ensure that it stays that way.

My feeling is that much of the secrets here must lie in the sequence that assembly and fitting operations are performed, alignment tools, and in the minute over/under dimensioning of parts in relation to their nominal, that is needed to give the proper preloads keeping the wheel tight.

The rule for shrink fitting steel is (in inches and deg F) is the steel tire or band will expand.0000065 inch per degree F times the diameter. Assuming a 30" tire @ 500 deg that would be .0000065 X 500 X 30 = .0975" of expansion.

The following is purely my conjecture.

1. The wood (hickory) should be dried before before working.

2. The spokes should be mechanically preloaded/wedged.

3. The center then bored for a snug/light press fit for the hub.

4. The wedge portion of the spoke machine formed.

As for sequence of operations and tooling/fixtures design you will need to talk to someone who does it although I'm thinking there are more than one way to skin this cat..............Bob

Vern Jensen in NZ makes such wheels, but we might be a bit far away from Norway! There appears to be no web site.

Vern Jensen, at Aotearoa Wooden Wheels, 16 Osborne Tce, Fielding 4702, NZ. Ph +64 6 323 3868

I just asked the internet about making wooden wheels and there were a lot of hits, including drawings and some good photographs of the steps.

An article in our Vintage Car Club magazine "Beaded Wheels" a few years ago mentioned how the author had made the wheels for his 1912 Mitchell on his "shaper at home", which he enjoyed because no two spokes were the same and they were oval to boot.

Thanks for all of your replies.

Found this by a web search :

http://www.29buickphotos.com/Repairs/Wheel-Repair/7841825_WVQ3RP#!i=508177584&k=PpSvtN8

It is very interesting, although it deals with a demountable type of artillery wheel with a center flange, which is somewhat different from the type that is found on most cars with artillery wheels

Wheelwrights use a lot of specialized machinery such as pantagraph spoke duplicators, clamps, etc. This is not to say you couldn't make your own wheels, but it would take a lot of skill to make the spokes exactly the same, plus bend the felloes, heat and press on the tire, etc. I grew up about a mile from Hoopes Brothers & Darlington in West Chester, PA. They made wood wheels for carriages and cars up to the early 1970s. Here is a film made shortly before they closed:

Phil

Pretty interesting Phil, especially the steam bending. I'm wondering if they used hickory only for the spokes because I'd bet the farm the logs shown are ash............Bob

Yes ash is also used,,but hickory is prefered if its available

Ash is 260$ / cord deliverd/not stacked,,cut 3years,bark 95% off

but still makes nasty tar/soot,,be ok next year,,but i cant wait,,

Cheers,,Ben

Yowza. Dry mixed hardwood around here is about $125-$150 cord delivered. I cut my own so I trade sweat equity for $ savings. I go through 6 cords a year. Ash isn't the best fire wood. Burns hot but fast and leaves a lot behind. .................Bob

Coker Tire Company is now making wood wheels of all types.

So they do. Site has a Good shot of a screw type assembly jig.....................Bob

Yesterday we bought $1000 worth of clear kiln dried ash for bending and body building. $3.30-$3.80/bd ft depending on thickness.

I'm sitting here right now beside the wood stove full of ash scraps. Burns well but fast and yea, leaves a lot of residue. I usually use it for kindling.