Brake Accumulator Alternatives

I just checked with a man who recharges accumulators to see if he could do accumulators for the Buick Reatta. He said he was already working with another member so I won't pursue it farther. It's good to know something is in the works to recharge them.

Dave, got your email, I will get back to you as soon as they arrive. I've put you on the waiting list.

For what it's worth, our accumulators do not look like factory. They have the outward appearance of the Hydac accumulators. But clearly they aren't the same if for no other reason that I've been running one myself with no issues with rupturing. This is due to us sending the manufacturer the specs we needed.

I also can assure you that they are not the same Hydac accumulators because they cost us much more each than the $150. They're right around the old GM list price for accumulators.

Being that they are larger, we include washers to lift the strut brace enough so that it doesn't ride on it. When it does, the pump becomes much louder than usual inside the cabin.

Washers, of course. I was concerned about similar issues, but it looks like Marck was one step (ok, about ten steps) ahead of the game.

I just checked with a man who recharges accumulators to see if he could do accumulators for the Buick Reatta. He said he was already working with another member so I won't pursue it farther. It's good to know something is in the works to recharge them.

In theory, if the diaphragm is not ruptured, recharging one shouldn't be an issue. We know a used one hasn't exploded, and if it lasts half as long on the recharge as it did new we're doing all right.

I am still disappointed about the HYDAC. I have hope in what Kingsley and Jim Finn have to say about it though, I suspect there May be differences between the Spinning Wheels unit and the NAPA unit. That's just a gut feeling, so take it for what it's worth.

I too am now quite interested to see what Kingsley and Jim determine. If the results are the same as the Hydac accumulators sourced from NAPA, the seller would be wise to immediately stop selling these as a suitable replacment, as it becomes a safety issue and in turn a potential liability. I wouldn't want to be in the position of marketing a part that fails on a safety critical system, when the claim was made that it would work (and then didn't despite such claims).

I am operating from the presumption that Hydac makes accumulators of different specifications, so maybe there is one that will work. If this one being sold as a suitable sub for other vehicles using Teves mk II (particularly Cadillac and other Buicks of the same era as the Reatta) does not stand up to the pressure on our cars, then logically it shouldn't work on the others mentioned above as they are the same system. So, right now, something seems amiss until we get confirmation from Jim or Kingsley that it works (or doesn't).

Marck- I am curious if the manufacturer you have procured from has given an indication of their long term willingness or ability to continue supplying these, assuming you are willing to go on selling them based upon rate of sales and profitiability. Given your first lot has sold out, I take that as a positive sign of good demand. These are an expensive item to sit on, so from a purely business standpoint they need to turn over fairly quickly for you not to be warehousing "boat anchors" to your fiscal detriment.

I do wonder about the longer term, and whether they will continue to support this part, and if you have been given any assurance to that end. I guess my thinking is this: do we stockpile now, or assume that we will have the opportunity to get these for another few years still. I've no aversion to stockpiling parts (just ask Dave about that) but prefer not to strain my budget to do so unless absolutely neccessary.

For that matter, do you (or anyone else reading this) know with certainty if the decision to drop the factory accumulator was a Delco decision (and ATE still can/would make these parts for an interested vendor) or was it forced on Delco by virtue of ATE dropping the part? Are you sourcing these from ATE, or some other manufacture; assuming you are willing to say?

So far, I've not seen anyone clarify if Delco simply decided not to contract for any more to be supplied, or if ATE shut down production on these, thereby forcing Delco to discontinue the part. Would be interested to know who actually made the call to kill support for the accumulator.

Lots of questions, very few answers.

KDirk

"I am operating from the presumption that Hydac makes accumulators of different specifications, so maybe there is one that will work."

Seeing several different HYDAC accumulators around the shop running excess of 2000 lb line pressure, ranging in size from smaller than ours to bowling ball, was what made me think there may be other suitable applications in the first place. The machine that ran one that looked just like ours is gone now, no way to get model no. off it.

I sawed open the prior hydac and Reatta accumulators. Maybe the problem with the hydac accumulator bladder is not compatible with Dot 3 brake fluid. The Reatta bladder was normal looking rubber. The Hydac was MUSH.

Hey Marck, how about a picture of your new accumilator installed? Interested in the "look" with washers installed and clearance.

I like accumulators so well I installed one on my house. The house stops much better now. It's been installed for over 10 years with no problems.

"I like accumulators so well I installed one on my house. The house stops much better now. It's been installed for over 10 years with no problems.

"

Now that's funny!! This one made me laugh!! How to go, Ronnie...

I suspect the pressure and volume are stamped on it somewhere. Want at least 2.1 bar pressure/.25 liter volume

I suspect the pressure and volume are stamped on it somewhere. Want at least 2.1 bar pressure/.25 liter volume

Do you mean 210 bar?

With respect to the HYDAC accumulaors - there are considerations over and beyond one test series that must be resolved before it should be endorsed. Not going to "legalese" but there is certain basic information needed, beyond what is imprinted on the side of it, that can come only from the vendor in this case or the manufacturer.

This is being addressed but am not sure the responses will be immediate but I will post again as things progress.

Kingsley

www.reattaspecialtyparts.com

Wow. Lots of emotion coupled with a few facts. The max and volume specs are on every Teves accumulator I have, stamped near the bottom (posted earlier, think it is 210 bar (~3000 psi) - I stand corrected - and .25 liters. Published figures for the nitrogen charge sounds about right at 1000 psi. All of this was in the Hyrac .pdf.

The "other" hydroelectic sysem in use by GM at the time was the Powermaster. No ABS and ran at about half the Teves working pressure. Was designed for diesel engines and GNs used it because the vaccuum was too low for a conventional power brake. GM passenger car diesels of the early 80's mostly used a seperate belt driven vaccuum pump and normal brakes. Now a Powermaster accumulator looks very similar to the Teves so have to be careful not to mix (my Vixen had a Powermaster).

So bottom line, I would be surprised if something did not already exist in the same form/fit/function as ours. The thread might not be common in the US, believe it is metric. Just a matter of finding. Now if something special was needed then there might be a minimum lot size needed and/or a setup fee.

Now the nice thing is that accomulators are spin on/spin off so for a 400 point show someone might keep an original for show and a replacement that worked for driving.. And I would not be surprised if there was a market for stickers.

From what I have seen the Teves Mk II was used by nearly every GM division, Ford, SAAB, FIAT, and BMW and possibly some others. Europe went diesel much earlier than the US. Pontiac first used the Teves Mk II in the 1986 6000 STE.

Accumulators are used for many things from curing water hammer in homes to providing oil in racing cars. Nothing new or unusual. Hudraulic systems use accumulators at much higher pressures than the Teves so that is not an issue. I would not be surprised it it was an off the shelf item, just a matter of knowing how to spec the order.

Edited January 19, 2015 by padgett (see edit history)

I'm anxious to see if Kingsley gets the same result of the badder rupturing when he installs the Spinning Wheels accumulator that I was assured would work.

The Hydac unit performed well in an initial short test drive - pedal is fine and no rupture of the bladder. It is being used in a daily driver driver and do not expect any problems.

The Hydac is slightly larger than the OE part and the change in reservoir drop - 1/2" for the OE and 11/16" for the Hydac - reflects this higher fluid flow through the unit and note the following based on 25 pumps to clear:

OE HYDAC

Empty accumulator to red light off - in seconds 26 45 Empty accumulator to pump off - in seconds 41 65

Pumps to red light 7 7

Key Off - pumps to relieve pressure/empty all accumulator fluid 16 26

A washer(s) is required for proper clearance under the cowl cross bar.

A 15/16"/24MM hex nut at the bottom assists in the install and removal of the part.

All of this info is furnished solely for your evaluation of the Hydac unit as it relates to the OE part. I have no financial interest in the sale or use of this product.

Kingsley

Kingsley,

Thanks for the update. Interesting that the larger size/capacity of the Hydac requires more time to charge and more pumps to discharge at key off, but renders the same amount of brake pedal applications before pump on when in operation if I am reading your numbers correctly.

I suppose this Hydac unit is a different spec than the one upthread that failed immediately. All the same, please keep us updated if there is a change in the performance or reliability with this unit, as I would not be comfortable with this part unless and until it proves worthy in longer term testing. Is Jim planning to run long term viability testing on this?

I will say that as of right now, I personally would still buy an OE spec unit if needed (preferably one of Marck's units or a NOS Delco should one pop up for a deal of a price) as opposed to the Hydac accumulator as I know the former two parts are right.

The Hydac part, once proven over a longer time frame, could be an attractive alternative for those on a tight budget and unconcerned about originality for judging purposes. We will need more data from the field before I'm comfortable making a recommendation to use this.

Of course, all of this is easy for me to spout on because I have not invested any time or money into testing the Hydac unit, so my opinion regarding it is worth about as much as I have in this discussion. All thanks and credit towards this end goes to you and Jim for taking the risk. I'm just the verbose bystander here and talk is cheap.

I have done a bit of reading on recharging accumulators, and appears to be a routine procedure for many pieces of industrial gear that use hydraulic accumulators. I know there is at least one guy online doing this for brake system accumulators and apparently many shops that specialize in repair and maintenance of hydraulic systems offer this sort of service. As the precharge specs are known for the Teves OE part, I wonder if I can have a local shop do one. I have a failed accumulator on a complete Teves unit I took off a parts car. I may examine that and see where it leads. Seems it is typically under $100 to recharge one based on information gleaned in various posts I've read elsewhere. Age of the bladder does concern me though, nothing rubber lasts forever. Point being it may not make sense to recharge a 25 year old accumulator even if it can be done.

KDirk

The Hydac unit performed well in an initial short test drive - pedal is fine and no rupture of the bladder. It is being used in a daily driver driver and do not expect any problems.

The Hydac is slightly larger than the OE part and the change in reservoir drop - 1/2" for the OE and 11/16" for the Hydac - reflects this higher fluid flow through the unit and note the following based on 25 pumps to clear:

Note the following comparison:

OE: Empty accumulator to red light off - in seconds: 26

Empty accumulator to pump off - in seconds: 41

Pumps to red light: 7

Key off - pumps to relieve pressure/empty all accumulator fluid: 16

HYDAC:

Empty accumulator to red light off - in seconds: 45

Empty accumulator to pump off - in seconds: 65

Pumpts to red light: 7

Key off - pumps to relieve pressure/empty all accumulagor fluid: 26

A washer(s) is required for proper clearance under the cowl cross bar.

A 15/16"/24MM hex nut at the bottom assists in the install and removal of the part.

All of this info is furnished solely for your evaluation of the Hydac unit as it relates to the OE part. I have no financial interest in the sale or use of this product.

Kingsley

NOTE: Initial format of the post has been modified - no change in figures, just format

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kingsley (see edit history)

Seems the HYDAC unit is probably spec'ed at 0.33 liter vs DELCO 0.25 liter internal volume. I would expect increased performance on all of the charge / discharge parameters between the two to mirror this difference as well, but it is not reflected in your data quite that way.

Without a measure of the true pre-charge pressure of the two before testing started it will be hard to make firm conclusions of performance differences.

How about some dimensional measurements of the HYDAC unit, photos or transcriptions of the markings on it as well, and adding the results of brake test #5 (number of pedal pumps till pump runs) to your reporting.

We all pretty much know even with an unused NOS Delco unit we are down to 1 pedal pump till run which will translate into how much wear and tear our pumps are being subjected to as we our enjoying the Reatta experiance.

Thanks for undertaking this effort.

Seems the HYDAC unit is probably spec'ed at 0.33 liter vs DELCO 0.25 liter internal volume. I would expect increased performance on all of the charge / discharge parameters between the two to mirror this difference as well, but it is not reflected in your data quite that way.

Without a measure of the true pre-charge pressure of the two before testing started it will be hard to make firm conclusions of performance differences.

How about some dimensional measurements of the HYDAC unit, photos or transcriptions of the markings on it as well, and adding the results of brake test #5 (number of pedal pumps till pump runs) to your reporting.

We all pretty much know even with an unused NOS Delco unit we are down to 1 pedal pump till run which will translate into how much wear and tear our pumps are being subjected to as we our enjoying the Reatta experiance.

Thanks for undertaking this effort.

McReatta - glad to respond with what I have immediately at hand.

Yellow Label attached "Precharged dry nitrogen gas 1000 PSI"

Imprinted in body of the accumulator:

MAWP 3000 PSI at 200 degree F.

MIDMT -40 degrees F

Made In Germany 10/14

Hydac 03055720/664/069

Volume 20 cu in PO 1000 PSI

SN 1479212

Stamped In Large numbers near bottom: S2 4554

Stamped in large numbers on top: S@4579

While most of this speaks for itself, I am in contact with the manufacturer through their New Orleans rep to confirm, among other things, compatibility with SAE DOT 3 brake fluid. I think it will take a number of days before everything works up and down the chain.

Dimensions and pictures will follow.

Kingsley

The numbers on my two DEAD Hydac accumulators are the same as yours'----EXCEPT the date code. The one from Prior is dated: 06/00. The other is: 08/00. The death of the Prior accumulator was talked to death on this form {by Howard and Betty Jo Kinard} many years ago.

I'm still having trouble understanding why the older 2 HYDAC units failed. It isn't like DOT3 is terribly corrosive.

brake fluid will eat the paint off your car.

If I were to guess, they probably lost their pre-charge (or enough of it) that the bladder over expanded under hydraulic pressure until it made contact internally with a metal surface which nicked or cut the bladder leading to catastrophic failure of same.

The potential for damage to the bladder under loss of precharge is a warning present in several things I've read recently on accumulators and their proper use and maintenance (i.e. checking the precharge level and recharging) as they relate to industrial machinery. Many accumulators require recertification (testing precharge and recharging or replacing as needed) on a regular interval as a matter of safety procedure.

Knowing what I do now, I'm kind of surprised the ones used on the Teves brake system weren't a reccomended dealer check item (remove, test and reinstall or replace as appropriate) during standard maintenance intervals, at least while under factory warranty. Then again, the Teves units have typically demonstrated a remarkable life span (many originals seem still to be on the road and functional; both my 88's appear to have factory original accumulators installed.

Granted, both were low mileage cars, but I have to think age is also a factor irrespective of cumulative miles/hours of use/number of applications of brake pedal.

So, perhaps the design of the Hydac is not quite as robust in maintaining pre-charge over time, or maybe it was a fluke. A sample of two failed units is not statistically adequate to establish a pattern, disconcerting though it may be.

Kingsley, good call in asking the rep to verify compatibility with DOT 3 fluid. That is yet another variable that may be in play here. All angles need to be covered and nothing left to chance before anyone can say with confidence that this is a genuinely good part for our needs.

KDirk

PD210 (and everyone else who is looking for an accumulator)

I don't fully understand your last post. It seems to be directed at me in a negative way but it doesn't matter. I think my last post was misunderstood but that is Ok too.

Maybe I'm blunt but I'm also known to be a problem solver. I have been tracking the price of accumulators for years. I posted alerts in the Buy/Sell forum when the prices dropped so people could take advantage of it. I was researching the accumulator problem before this thread was started. I was going to keep my findings quiet until I had one of the accumulators I found in hand so I could test it on my car to make sure it would work. Now that you have started this thread and you appear to be serious and willing to spend some money, I don't want to see you buy something that won't work. That is why I have decided to post this now.

Here is what I found. HYDAC ACCUMULATOR BALLS

It is a alternative to the factory accumulator that should work. And best of all it is affordable. It isn't a duplicate of the original but it is very similar. It has been tried and tested on Lincolns and Fords with the Teves Mark II Antilock Brake System like ours for a couple of years.

I have contacted the seller and he assures me that these accumulators will fit a Buick Reatta. He says they are currently out of stock but a shipment from Germany is already in the U.S. and is on it's way to him by truck. He is going to notify me when they arrive. Don't be surprised if someone throws a wrench in this deal and he jacks up the price when he finds out what others are asking for them.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone who is in need of an accumulator.

The link above will give a good picture of the HYDAC accumulator. Also note the initial comments in the product description., "Finally.......The brand new 2010 Hydac accumulator ball".

I will respond later with confirmation of dimensions - I have notes reflecting a diameter of 3.75" and an overall length of 4.75" with the length figure subject to later confirmation.

Kingsley

I looked at a 1994 Farrari 355 coupe yesterday and it has Teves brakes. Without having Reatta parts with me for comparison, the pump assembly and accumulator look identical.

The high pressure line from the pump to the booster has banjo fittings like the 1988 Reatta. I will check into the parts interchangability.

Oh Barney, don't let people know if the part will fit a Ferrari, prices will quadruple. I had a 80 308 GTS and parts were wicked priced.

Eh, if Jaguar was charging $450 for the same accumulator we were using, Ferrari is probably charging $750. The thing that gets me is how many cars used this part and still it was discontinued.

KDirk

Has anyone checked out this entry to the field yet?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delco-25528382-Compatible-ABS-Brake-Accumulator-Ball-/281567641570?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item418ebd3fe2

Claims it fits 245 different vehicles and that's only GMs and Jags. There's lots more it will work on as we know.

Here's a new use I found for our part and what they are doing about the loss. Finally found out the thread size we need too! Remember a certain British car company that uses our headlight module?

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/46962-alternatives-to-original-accumulator-gm/

It's unreal how many users need this part.

There seems to be two versions that are functionally the same just different sizes. The Ford size part 4.75" tall and 3.75" diam holding 0.33 liters, and the Delco type part coming in around 4.56" tall and 3.3" in diam holding 0.25 liters. Pays your money and takes your choice, but no way should we be having problems with getting these parts based on the total sales volume or Reattas alone.

I looked at a 1994 Farrari 355 coupe yesterday and it has Teves brakes. Without having Reatta parts with me for comparison, the pump assembly and accumulator look identical.

The high pressure line from the pump to the booster has banjo fittings like the 1988 Reatta. I will check into the parts interchangability.

Yes, several Ferraris used the Teves Mk II. Here's what was posted on a Ferrari forum back in 2005:

456 brake booster

Thanks guys. In fact I believe the 456 hydraulic accumulator and pressure switch are interchangable with parts supplied by AC Delco (#25528382 - accumulator) and #25533700

pressure switch) which are the parts most prone to failure.

Saab, Jaguar, VW, Ferrari and Ford owners figured out years ago that they could use our DELCO accumulators on their cars and save a ton of money by doing so. Don't ask me why we are so late to the party. Bet it has something to do with the number of cars produced using the Teves. I'd guess probably only Ferrari might have fewer than we do. The Ford balls are physically bigger than the DELCOs but other than that are interchangeable.

Here's a link to the Jag part, look familiar? http://www.hdrogers.com/jaguarparts/JLM1907.html I doubt this is a true "new" part rather NOS.

Here's links to the Saab part. They learned the our DELCO ball was a direct replacement some time ago too.

http://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/62608/Brake-Accumulator-4002267G/?gclid=CjwKEAiA_4emBRCxi8_f2cWWjFcSJAB-v1qywb2m-5kn2gi3HWn4dM9UfuFOWEwyD3KNfMnE8pDbqRoCqyHw_wcB

http://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/4577/Brake-Accumulator-4002267/

Last time I saw a Ferrari accumulator was some time ago on eBay and the asking price was over $1,000.

Lessee 20 cu in = .325 liter, real close to .33 and wonder why not metric.

One thing I noticed in the Hydrac catalog was a selection of different bladder materials. I suspect one is best for DOT 3 and it may well eat others.

Now we know why Delco ran out - too many Ferrari and Jag owners buying. GM has a habit when they stop using something of making one big buy they figure will last for 20 years and then selling the tooling off.

From the research I've uncovered looks like Ford was the first cars to debut the Teves MkII in 1985 Lincolns. So they probably set the bar with the 0.33 liter size. GM followed a year later, and just because, maybe due to space limitations, came up with the smaller 0.25 liter size. So all the other cars using the Teves spec'ed one or the other and issued them their own unique PN. Actually, Ford had two versions of the accumulator. The first units had a longer threaded portion where it screws into the pump assembly. A while later a design change came about, and the threaded nipple was shortened a bit to what we both use now. As the shorter version could be used on all the systems, but the original one could only be used on the earliest Teves, it went away. I wonder if that was the same time as the change from the rubber to the metal pressure line was introduced.

All of the years the Teves was sold only DOT 3 brake fluid was in widespread use so no difference there. Only exception I found was a system developed by Citroën and used in a few exotic cars like the Maserati which used a green mineral oil fluid. (LHM)

I have a feeling that because of Delco's conditions levied on their suppliers, it may not be possible to obtain an exact duplicate of our accumulators from the OEM. That said, there are quite a few manufacturers of accumulators out there, and there is nothing unique involved in the accumulators, so with the total number of potential users out there, one of them might see fit to make them available at a more reasonable price than they seem to be offering now. Certainly, Reatta won't be the marketing leader in this regard though.

If there turns out not to be a difference in the performance factor of the number of pedal pushes to pump start, then then smaller DELCO version could be pushed as the only one needed to be supplied for all Teves cars. If it turns out that the larger unit performs better, that may be the way to go with some spacers added where necessary.

The Lotus manual states that you should get five pedal pushes in before the pump starts to run if the accumulator is performing well. And I assume that's with a DELCO accumulator. Wouldn't it be nice if the Ford one yielded even more.

This link was sent to me recently. I have scanned the article but not enough to tell what might be different on our units (other than the Ford parts numbers)

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/abs-system.html

I sure wish there was a parts supplier that would research this and buy inventory so we wouldn't have to worry about this now and in the future...

I sure wish there was a parts supplier that would research this and buy inventory so we wouldn't have to worry about this now and in the future...

I don't think anyone is complaining about the work Ronnie and Marck have into this. I would have left this topic alone if I knew what Marck was doing.

You missed my point. I have sold all 3 of my NOS accumulators to buy one of Marck's. He is investing in US. We should invest in HIM.

He found a manufactuer, sent them the specifications, bought the required amount to get them made and sent, and is now carrying inventory.

BTW If you were going to leave this topic alone now that Marck has stated he has them, why do you have 16 posts [9 after Marck complained about people trying to buy elsewhere] on this "Brake Accumulator Alternatives" series of posts?

Edited January 25, 2015 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

I sure wish there was a parts supplier that would research this and buy inventory so we wouldn't have to worry about this now and in the future...

You missed my point. I have sold all 3 of my NOS accumulators to buy one of Marck's. He is investing in US. We should invest in HIM.

He found a manufactuer, sent them the specifications, bought the required amount to get them made and sent, and is now carrying inventory.

BTW If you were going to leave this topic alone now that Marck has stated he has them, why do you have 16 posts [9 after Marck complained about people trying to buy elsewhere] on this "Brake Accumulator Alternatives" series of posts?

After opening the can of worms, I thought I might as well see it through. The information within this thread has some value now, otherwise I would certainly remove it. I understand that by opening this topic I upset Marck, and by suggesting I wanted to add something to the ROJ I upset Ronnie and I fully intend on leaving the forum once this topic is seen through. Regards.

Let me expand on this idea a little. I just wanted to compile a resource to help people who started where I started. Not much money but enjoy the car and want to preserve one, not show quality but just for personal enjoyment. I understand now that idea undermines the value of the car and the livings of people who make parts for the collectors, and I will not pursue that avenue any more within this forum. The attitudes of people here toward people who aren't loaded but are really trying to preserve their cars tells me maybe my type isn't welcome here. I understand and respect that.

Edited January 25, 2015 by PontiacDude210 (see edit history)

I believe that researching this topic as completely as possible will be beneficial to all in the long run. I just came across yet another user of this accumulator that I have not seen mentioned as of yet.

Check this link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ABS-Brake-Accumulator-NEW-fits-Chrysler-TC-by-Maserati-and-Buick-Reatta-/181648973095?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a4b1f5d27&vxp=mtr

and see what our sister forum has said in this regard:

http://forums.aaca.org/f144/tc-brake-accumulator-identical-acdelco-part-372234.html

After opening the can of worms, I thought I might as well see it through. The information within this thread has some value now, otherwise I would certainly remove it. ...

I'm happy that you started this thread. We are all going to need accumulators if we keep our Reattas long enough. I view them as wear items just like brake pads. However, I think this thread might not have ever taken place if Marck had made it known earlier that he had found a source for accumulators and had let the forum know he had them for sale. After some research I have no doubt that plentiful replacement accumulators are going to be available in the near future from several sources. They may not be identical to the OE accumulators but the will be functionally the same. There are just too many brands of cars that use the Teves MK II system for them to completely disappear from the market. It will just take some time for supply to catch up with demand. Competition will ultimately set the price of the accumulators.

... I understand that by opening this topic I upset Marck, and by suggesting I wanted to add something to the ROJ I upset Ronnie and I fully intend on leaving the forum once this topic is seen through. Regards.

I welcome anyone to contribute to ROJ if they have something that will help Reatta owners. You are no exception. If you will look at the top of the tutorials and other articles on ROJ you will notice that most of them were contributed by members of this forum. I usually modify them slightly for clarity or to make them fit the webpage better but I always try to give credit where it is due. Without this forum there would be no ROJ. ROJ was started because I wanted to save the valuable information that has been posted by members of this forum in a way that makes it easy to understand and easy to find.

I ask you to reconsider your intention to leave this forum. We need people like you who have new ideas and a fresh point of view. I want everyone to feel at home here. If I said anything that would make you want to leave this forum I'm sorry and I hope you will accept my apology. I'm not a collector by any means but I have nothing against collectors. I fall into that group of people who aren't loaded but are really trying to preserve their cars as you describe. I can assure you that you are welcome here.

'Dude: i second Ronnie's opinion about staying around here and the ROJ (and its Forum) as well.

it would be simplistic to say there are only "collectors" and "daily drivers" here, but sometimes it seems that way. personally, i admire the ones that are able to restore/refresh vehicles that others may think should be "parts cars" or go to the crusher!!!

all my vehicles - some listed below - have all been "drivers". some not "daily" and some not in bad weather. my goal was/is that i could get in any of my vehicles and drive it anywhere. currently, i'm working on my '51 Studebaker as health issues allow. mainly doing some "cosmetic" work but it needs valve guides/seals (at least) which i will need to "farm out" as i don't think i have the equipment to perform such a repair. plus, i've never pulled a Flathead 6 before.

sorry for going O.T. - but i hope you stick around!

PD210-

I'd also ask that you not throw in the towel here. So some toes got stepped on, big deal. There will always be disagreements over the handling or direction of attack to a problem in a place like this. Yet, this forum is probably the most accomodating group of people I've belonged to online. Many online clubs and groups end up letting petty spats and pissing matches drive away valuable members, and then the place has no value because there are but a handful of regular posters left and they tend to echo each other. I've abandoned other online forums for that reason and don't want to see that happen here too now. This place (save for a few ongoing threads like this one) has been slow for a few months now. If people bail out because of personality clashes or getting nicked for goring someone's ox (or at least the peception that they have), it will get even slower and then it ceases to be a useful resource.

Anyone offering reproduction parts should rightly get support for their investment, both to make their efforts worthwhile and encourage further development of additional parts. That does not preclude researching alternatives if they exist. No one vendor will ever capture 100% of a market, because if it is that lucrative others will jump in to make a cut. Conversely, if there is no money to be made, then they won't be around long even if they are the sole source.

Besides, there will always be a subset of customers who want to do it cheaper. I miss out on plenty of jobs I bid because there are guys way more desperate to bring in some quick cash, and will undercut my labor rates by half (or even more sometimes). I don't worry about it because I never would have gotten those jobs to begin with; those customers are shopping enitrely on price likely because they have to due to being fiscally stretched themselves. I charge a certain amount because my time and expertise is worth it, and enough people recognize that so I stay busy. That's just how business is done.

As far as the struggle between well funded colllector types and ordinary enthusiasts (and I consider myself among the latter group) this will continue until the collectors either own them all or the car fades in obscurity and the collectors leave us mere mortals to our own devices. Right now, there is plenty of room for both mindsets. I cannot say what the future holds, so I have positioned myself with plenty of cars and parts to satisfy my needs for a long time yet.

KDirk

As I said, I wanted to help people who are in the spot I started in. That's why I was willing to become wrapped up in researching viable alternatives. I don't think there's a lot of resources aimed at that crowd. I didn't realize that my attempts would be seen as trying to undercut Marck or insult the Journal. I feel like a lot of forum members had been friendly toward me, and I worry that now they may see me as that obnoxious young guy nobody can stand. I apologize to anyone I may have insulted.

PD210,

We've all been that obnoxious young guy that nobody can stand. Eventually we grow out of it. I grew up in Queens in the '50's when being an obnoxious young guy kept you alive. I moved to Portland and found out that really is not a way of life.

As anyone can see from the number of views of this post, people are interested.

We know you didn't mean to insult anyone; we're in this together. The more we communicate the better we, and this forum, will be.

Stanley