1929 Plymouth Timing Issue/Motor Tear Down

All:

I recently posted on another site that deals with early Plymouths (28Q29U) and thought I would post hear as well to possibly get some more thoughts, opinions and advice. To make a very long story short, I have been having timing issues for the last several months after the car left me stranded. It just cut out, popping and backfiring...I had to be towed home. I was actually able to get the car going again after static timing and took it to another show. Made it there and then the car died again on the way home. Another tow. Took a break from it for a while, static timed again and then went a mile up the road and the timing slowly retarded and the car shut off. I flooded the carb as it was slowing down to keep it moving to no avail. The car has good vacuum when it runs and I believe, based on thoughts from others, that it could possibly be the cam gear...the teeth looked good the last time I checked, but it was suggested that the center of the gear - bakelite - could be the culprit and the timing is again slipping.

The post below is my most recent post on the site mentioned above; just want to get some other thoughts before I (possibly) tear into the motor, which will be another project if it comes to it. Any thoughts, comments, etc., would be appreciated.

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Most of my previous posts over the last few months have dealt with my timing issues that I've been having for a while, and it appears that I may have to get into the motor to check the timing gear. To sum it all up, the car was running yesterday, looked good on the vacuum gauge, etc. I've been fighting this on and off now for a few months. Each time, I can eventually get the car timed and running. Recently, I thought the carb may be the issue...I'm sure it could be taken apart and cleaned anyway. I started her up yesterday and listened to her run for several minutes and things looked good. Then, the idle went down and she started idling rough and the vacuum gauge was going crazy. I shut her off for a few minutes; carb was wet with gas so I thought that was the problem and need to take it off and rebuild now. I didn't. I attempted to start the car and she wouldn't. Heard a couple pops and I knew the timing was screwed up again. Since I made some marks on the distributor and crank pulley for reference the other day after she was running good, I went to check that out first.

Once my marks were lined up, I pulled off the distributor cap to inspect the rotor. The rotor was definitely off the mark and looked to be almost 180° out from where it should be. I've had the distributor out before and the gear was fine. So now, going to put the carb on the back burner. I think I've been in denial about the gear since I've always been able to get the car running again. How could I keep getting it running if the gear was bad???

I'm quite sure I've got to get into it to check the cam gear to see if that's the problem. It's either that or the distributor, whatever is throwing the rotor off and changing the timing.

This is disappointing since my Dad had the motor rebuilt in the '80's and you know there aren't that many miles on the car. I found hand written receipts and notes from the build and it looks like an engine kit was purchased from Egge, but there is nothing specific regarding the cam or gear.

Anyway, I've never had to do something major on this car before, so I'll need tons of advice regarding tear down of hood, radiator and anything else to get this apart. Trust me, I don't want to do this if I don't have to, but I don't know what else it could be at this point. I would hate to tear it down only to find out I didn't need to.

I would be suspicious of the distributor, Could the rotor be slipping?

Does the Spark Advance lever on the dash do anything positive or negative when this problem starts happening? If you pulled the advance lever out, do you get a little more correct timing for a little while, or would that not even make a difference at the point where the timing is failing? Just thinking if you can postpone or lessen the effect by advancing the timing with the spark advance lever, maybe this would prove that it is definitely distributor-related? I'm no expert, but just a thought.

Thanks for the replies. I'll check out the rotor, but recently changed it and the cap out for the one that was on before to see if any difference. It didn't really matter since the symptoms were the same. It's like it slips out of time then shuts down each time.

The spark control really doesn't make a difference and its all the way in at full advance like it's supposed to be when running. If I pulled it out when running, I would only retard the timing so it wouldn't help the problem. If it is the gear, it just doesn't make sense how I can get it going again each time.

Does your engine still have its original pot metal/Mazak distributor mounting block? I know that my one is not very good and one time when away on a trip some years ago we had a similar problem. I felt that the distributor had jumped and shifted in the housing. The cause of the problem was that the distributor cap that was on it then had a hole in it (don't know why) and we ran into a thunderstorm which caused water to get into the cap, which caused backfiring, enough I reckon to make the distributor to go out of time. I recall at the time we simply could not get it to run so towed it home (nearly 200 miles) behind our modern car and took it apart at home. The car has done several trips since (fitted with a new cap!) and not given any trouble, though I am always aware that it is only a matter of time before that mount will need replacing.

Just had a thought.( I've been following your fault over the last year.) If the bakelite timing gear is the problem it should be only a matter of marking the mating line between the metal insert and the bakelite outer gear. Take a cold chisel and punch a mark on the mating line so that the mark straddles the line. Run the engine with or without driving the car,goose the throttle to stress the gear and see if you can make chisel mark move apart. Also using this method on other parts may help track down what is slipping every time once everything is lined up again and the engine run again. (Your distributor base does not look like it is the problem. I can't see how the rotor would walk around the drive post. I think you would have seen this already.)

All:

Checking the base was something I was going to check as well. Unless there is something visibly wrong with it or broken (I don't think I will find anything for some reason), I've got to believe it's something internal. My guess is the Bakelite, or the entire gear is slipping around the cam somehow. I am not a mechanic (I've done some light mechanic work), but I really don't know what else it could be.

Like I've mentioned, I can get her going, but a load seems to create the issue.

Any other thoughts or advice would be appreciated and any tricks or tips for removing the radiator, hood, crank pulley, etc. would also help!

Thanks again...

Also, has anyone here had this problem before involving the gear? Or, experience removing and replacing the year?

I had a cam gear slip on an old Chevy six before but there was no getting it going again.

Here is an update and any thoughts would be appreciated. I removed the distributor and distributor housing off the motor. It looks like the housing may have been previously repaired (see "ring" with roll ping and other "pin heads" in the ring). This ring is a little loose. There is also some play (in and out) with the housing shaft. Apparently, someone added a Zerk/grease fitting to the housing. I need to go back and see how much play there is with the distributor when it's installed in the housing.

I'm not sure if this is the cause of my issue, but if it was and I didn't have to get into the motor and check out the cam gear, that would be great.

Here are a couple videos:

http://vid947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/Car%20Stuff/VIDEO0029_zps6db3mz19.mp4

http://vid947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/racertb/Car%20Stuff/VIDEO0028_zpsplm7qqtp.mp4

Here is the latest after a closer inspection of the distributor housing and distributor. Please let me know your thoughts on the play/sloppiness, if it's too much or is it set up right. This is from what I posted today on another site:

I'm starting to think the play in the housing shaft might be an issue like you suggested. After contacting Jeff Buton via email, he also suggested I concentrate on the housing and distributor alignment and check for sloppiness (or if it's too tight, which it is not) and while turning the housing shaft and distributor, see if it's sloppy and if gear slips.

So I did this earlier today and took some time with it. What I found was that if the slack is taken out of the shaft (I was pulling out on the shaft as if I added shims and got rid of the slack) the shaft with the distributor engaged and turned smoothly, again no excessive play.

I then did the same thing but this time I was pushing in (as if to take the slack and play out of it) on the shaft all the way while turning the distributor. This time, the shaft would turn freely for about half to three quarters of a turn and then stop, as if locked up. I had to pull out on the shaft to get the shaft and distributor to turn again.

At this point, I feel like this COULD be an issue, if not the issue. This play in the shaft and the play in the distributor shaft have me concerned, although I feel the housing shaft is the bigger problem. I could add some thin shims to correct this and take up the slack, but want to make sure I wouldn't do too much and then somehow screw up the housing itself. I don't know how I could as long as the shaft turns freely. But, who knows how much slack there should be?

A couple other things...both the distributor gear and housing shaft gear are good and are not slipping, they are on tight. Also, when then housing shaft is pulled out to take up slack (and turns the distributor freely), you can look down in the housing at the gear and it appears perfectly centered on where it would align with the distributor gear. When pushed in, the gear is ever so slightly off (pushed back) so it wouldn't be perfectly aligned with the distributor.

So, did I find the problem? I have no idea, but these are my observations with the housing and distributor.

I can't help with this problem as I don't know how much play is "allowed", but I'm interested to find out what the solution is at the end of this, as it looks like you're chasing it down ther correct way. I'll also offer encouragement and let you know that we are interested in your posts. This will probably help some of us out in the long run.

I appreciate all the support I can get! If fixing this "play" fixes the problem, that would be great. Right now, that is the question... I'd like to somehow get an answer to this if possible before I go any further. It's a real mystery to me!

I guess the play you are referring to translates to the walking up and down between the cam and distributer gears.

I must admit that I didn't reread the initial complaint but I remember that the car would die.

I doubt that this bit of timing variance would kill the engine. I am thinking that this play would come and go every time you stepped on the gas and released the same. I couldn't see the timing varying more than a couple of degrees.

I don't want to rain on your parade here but I don't think this is your problem. Unless of coarse it is. LOL

Thanks Jack...I'm open to anything at this point. If this was the problem, I would assume the distributor gear is slipping out or off the drive gear, causing the timing to jump and eventually cut off/out and shut down. So, once it's off, it's off and that's that. I woudn't think it would go back and forth with acceleration and deceleration. Unless someone out there really knows the answer as to this issue, or how much play is too much play, then I'll have to experiment and figure it out myself.

Should be easy enough to see if its jumping teeth. Make a couple of marks on the gears and when it screws up see if they are still where you put them.

Had a bakelite cam gear slip on its hub in a 2.5 4cyl s10 pickup years ago, it just quit running.

I knew I had found the problem when I compared the new cam gear with the old ,when I put a straight edge across the new gear in line with the keyway the timing mark was 4 teeth away, when I made this measurement on the old gear it was 12 teeth away.

I am betting on ignition timing or bad condensor, weak coil, high resistance coil wire etc.