1963 Buick Electra 225 4-door hardtop with leather bucket seat interior

This car is not mine, but appears to be a stunning original example and desirably optioned.

I'd love to see this beauty in the care and custody of a BCA member!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Electra-SPORT-SEDAN-BUCKETS-30K-MILES-RARE-BUCKET-SEAT-SPORT-SEDAN-1963-BUICK-ELECTRA-225-/141506296403?forcerrptr=true&hash=item20f26eba53&item=141506296403&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

What a beauty!!

It is a beauty, but I don't believe it is original paint and chrome.

It is a beauty, but I don't believe it is original paint and chrome.

I wouldn't want to make that assumption unless I was able to see the car in person. There does seem to be a fair amount of orange peel, though. What brings you to the conclusion that it isn't original?

Looking back over at the car in all the door, hood, and trunk jambs, I can't see any evidence of repaint. Seeing the car in person may change my opinion, but I'm not in the hunt for this car.

The orange peel is quite evident on some panels but not on others; would not expect to see on original paint.

The chrome looks too nice to be original---just my opinion.

John, I regularly work on a 66 wildcat with 5000 original miles, a 72 Electra with 11k and even my old 69 original Electras paint would be in the same condition and appearance as this Electra's and chrome is every bit as much brightness of the chrome on the Electra, there is no reason original chrome and paint can't look Like that. Orange peel? Have you seen some of the terrible paint jobs that came from the factory?

Like I said, just my opinion; and I've seen many issues with original chrome as well as with paint, but not so much with orange peel on mid-60's GM. Hopefully the buyer will do an inspection.

By the way, Keith, your '69 Electra convertible

looks great! It's good to see a convertible that

isn't the everyday red or white.

Very nice car, I am watching it on e-bay myself. The dealer has two nice 4 door Buick's and both are listed in Hemming's. But here is my issue, the seller states " This car is the nicest 1960's Buicks we have had in seven years..." on both cars! I think they are very nice, but I tend to not believe everything when the same description is used on both cars. We had a classic car dealer in the Seattle area that would by a nice car to resell, then it had a different history with glamorous descriptions he would fabricate himself.

Anyway I hope the car is as good as it looks, the paint does look way to shinny for original the metallic color cars didn't have the same depth in the paint when new. Looks like he wants $23.5k for the car. I hope the bottom is just as good as the top, looks like the trunk is full of water in the pictures - possible leaking rear window?

Brian, you are correct, stunning car. Lets see if it gets a new owner in the states.

Steve, I noticed that the seller made the same statement about both cars! The other one is beautiful also, but the engine compartment is certainly less pristine and it lacks some of the desirability that this '63 has.

Here's the '66 Electra:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141506327668?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

"We had a classic car dealer in the Seattle area that would by a nice car to resell, then it had a different history with glamorous descriptions he would fabricate himself."

I know exactly which dealer you are talking about Steve, and Sean is still very active in his story telling, and sells under two different ebay id's. :>(

Nice Electra's!

OK Buick People: As far as determining the overall condition of any old car I certainly agree with Adam in the fact that ya gotta see'um in da flesh.

I can say this with out a doubt. If that 63 Electra had original paint, that color, it would not have anywhere close to the gloss it seems to have in the pictures. It does look like a very nice piece. That seller seems to have a really nice inventory and....his presentation is also nice. Mitch

You can quickly and easily make any car appear shinier with just a little editing. These pictures are obviously enhanced which make a stunning car even more stunning. Also as any good photographer can tell you, time a day makes a world of difference, a lot of people take pictures of their cars in the sunshine but to get the best wetlook shine you don't want to take it when it's bright sun

You can quickly and easily make any car appear shinier with just a little editing. These pictures are obviously enhanced.......

That never occurred to me, but one more reason to do or get a thorough pre-purchase inspection.

I would appreciate plenty of input regarding what a fair price for this '63 4-door Electra would be? The seller wants $21,500 which I think is too much. My research indicates a reasonable price would be $16,000. Before I jump into the deep end of the negotiation pool with this dealer, I'd like to get some feedback from BCA members or anyone else. If this car winds up in my garage, I would rejoin the BCA. Hope to get lots of replies.

Have you seen tge car in oerson? If so do the pictures given a true depiction ofthe car?

Have you seen tge car in oerson? If so do the pictures given a true depiction ofthe car?

Nope. Only talked to the dealer over the phone.

I saw this one at the Raleigh Classic Auction in December, 2013, and it was again listed in their 2014 brochure, which I didn't attend. Don't know if it sold either time, or was just re-run by the owner. Looking it over, it was very nice except it seemed to have a repaint. Maybe, or maybe I'd just never seen a well-kept Bronze Mist original. I think the question of paint is the reason I didn't take a picture, but it's definitely worth further investigation for a serious buyer.

The only way I'd be comfortable doing so would be to go to the car and inspect it in person.

TG

Agreed. I would definitely want to see it and drive for myself before forking over the cash. But, I'm about a 17-hour drive (or an annoying flight) away. So, I would first hire an appraiser/inspector to look at it first as a preliminary step.

According to the dealer, this car did indeed sell at an auction in the Carolina area to a well-healed buyer with a large collection which is who this dealer bought it from about a year later. I'd love to know how much this car sold for at the auction.

So, no one wants to offer any opinion as to what this car is worth? And please, refrain from the the worn out and overly used adage of "it's worth what somebody is willing to pay". I appraise commercial real estate for a living and for some reason, my clients wouldn't accept that as a value conclusion. LOL!

It just closed on ebay for the 2nd time without meeting reserve; first time was $10,000 with 4 bids, and now $10,880 with 2 bids. Not saying 2 times on ebay at this time of year is indicative of true value--just pointing out the limited interest.

I would value it somewhere $12,000 - $15,000.

Yes, you'd think the two ebay listings would be a good gauge of value. However, the dealer (who loves to drone on endlessly as to how successful he is) will quickly point out he sells few cars on ebay. Rather, he uses ebay simply as a method for advertising and that he sells most of his cars thru phone calls. According to my phone conversation with him, his price is $21,500 . . . . period. Not sure how he's attained the level of success he claims when his rigid price structure appears to be well in excess of the market. He must sell some cars on ebay because he has good feedback from several buyers. He must also have a knack for finding over-capitalized buyers who routinely open up their wallets and say "here's my money, take as much as you want". Hats off to him if that's been his business plan.

His listings are notoriously hi, i would think the $15k range would be justfied, the right time if year and could be a little more.

Assuming 100% profit would imply the dealer paid nearly $11,000 for it, which sounds about right. The main appeal this 4-door Electra holds for me is because it's a sports roof (no post hardtop) design. If this was a sedan with a B-pillar, it wouldn't even be on my radar.

99% of the admirers would be in the BCA.

100% correct

I have to say, the bucket seats do nothing for me. I'm sure they're a rarity, but there's a reason for that . . . . they're not as comfortable as a bench seat. Sporty? Yes. But, comfort trumped sporty to a buyer of a 4-door Electra in '63. So? For this car, where's the line between "stupid money" and a reasonable purchase price??????

I have to say, the bucket seats do nothing for me. I'm sure they're a rarity, but there's a reason for that . . . . they're not as comfortable as a bench seat. Sporty? Yes. But, comfort trumped sporty to a buyer of a 4-door Electra in '63. So? For this car, where's the line between "stupid money" and a reasonable purchase price??????

You wouldn't say that if you had a 5 foot tall grandmother that you used to have to ride with with your knees plastered against the dash LOL

Good point. Of course, in 1963 I was little/short myself so seat travel wouldn't have been an issue for me then. Haaa!

The seller is a dealer, which means all hope for rational thinking and market value is abandoned.

I think that many dealers (thankfully, not all)

try for 100% mark-up. After all, they may be

car lovers--we hope--but their prime object is

making a living. Money, not the good of the hobby,

often seems to be their focus. Sometimes it seems

like greed.

Have you noticed that dealers keep the same high

price month after month after month, rarely or never

lowering it? After several months, you'll sometimes see a

dealer's car sell on Ebay, and the realized price is nowhere near

what they had been asking.

I very much doubt that those high-markup dealers sell many cars

close to their asking prices, but I'll bet they like to perpetuate

the myth that the cars are really worth that.

Are there any myths associated cars with low asking prices?

Bernie

John S - to pick up on your thoughts: Yes, it's unrealistic to believe the sale price of many cars in a dealer's inventory actually sell for anything close to their asking prices. And, that's to be expected to some degree. When placing a classified ad, most people will include an asking price that's somewhat greater than what they will actually accept. But, many (most . . . all?) dealers put ridiculously high asking prices on their cars and, when you talk to them, they'll regale you with tales as to:

1. the high volume of cars they sell

2. how they know the market better than anyone else

3. how they don't pay attention to well-established value guides (like Hagerty's as an example)

4. even if they recognize the existence of market-based sale data, naturally, the car they're offering is exponentially superior to those in the data pool

In the negotiations I have had with dealers, they'll treat you like you're an absolute, wet-behind-the-ears newcomer to the collector car market and assume you know absolutely nothing. Sometimes, it's been the other way around. Hey, I don't mind paying somewhat of a premium to cover a dealer's advertising and overhead. But, I'm not prone to paying an excessive amount for that. It'll be interesting to see how long this Electra remains on this dealer's website.

I've seen dealer's cars roll across an auction (like Mecum) that sell for waaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than what they were asking for. One car in particular sold for less at auction than what I offered the dealer a few months before. Some folks just have more money than sense and dealers are usually near the top of that list. The top spot is reserved for that one in a million buyer who'll agree to a dealer's outrageously high price . . . . . . only to be horribly burned beyond recognition when they eventually go to sell it.

It's back........... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Electra-SPORT-SEDAN-BUCKETS-30K-MILES-/141521248447?vxp=mtr

Very well said. My problem is that I'm only 54 and not a mechanic. So, I have the collector car yearnings you so eloquently presented, but I can't yet smash open my retirement piggy bank. So, silly me, I only want to buy cars that don't need much work, but are priced below the "abandon all rational thinking" threshold.

The guy that said "You get what you pay for." left out part of it; "The most you get is what you pay for."

Bernie

This is a great discussion with some very good comments I must say; right on. Recently I saw an old Buick on Ebay that was being sold by the prior owner's child. While very nice, it was priced about 50% above where I think it will eventually sell. Since I have seen many times people unfamiliar with the market overprice cars, I sent the seller a message just giving them my opinion of where I think the selling price might be, in case they wanted to sell it more quickly. If it was a dealer I never would have wasted my time, but I was trying to be helpful thinking someone might welcome an opinion; after all it wasn't like they were forced to agree with it. I wasn't rude or condescending in any way and was just trying to give an educated opinion, but the seller was very offended and wrote me back a scathing and nasty message. So, I guess I'll mind my own business in the future and let the market do it's job; I'll just be entertained by it henceforth.

Here's some documentation on some dealers' high mark-ups:

---1935 Buick Series 50 victoria coupe, advertised in the Buick Bugle

by a private owner around 2007 for $40,000. Supposedly a near-400

point total restoration. He couldn't sell it; it went down to $37,500 and

then $35,000 in subsequent issues. A dealer bought it (probably for the

low 30's), and immediately the dealer's asking price was about $62,000.

Four years later, the dealer still had it, and the price had come down to

just a smidgen below $50,000. I wonder if that dealer still has it, having

just taken it off the market for a while.

---1958 Buick Super 2-door hardtop, advertised in the Buick Bugle maybe

5 years ago for $18,000. Car seemed to be in nice #3 condition.

A dealer bought it and immediately raised the price to $28,000.

Why are middlemen even needed in those cases? A collector may have

been able to afford the $18,000, but not the $28,000. If those dealers

want to make money in the car hobby, how about reproducing hard-to-find parts,

and actually HELP the hobby!

5 years ago there were A LOT of bargains to be had in the collector car world, as many watched their retirement account dry up or lost their job. At that time, I imagine there were some speculators who bought bargains just to hold until the market came back, so that may be one explanation.

Doing that in times like these, though, seems a bit whacky.

I know Mike, I bought few cars from him. The difference from the other dealers (and his added value) is, he really works on his cars and fix almost everything before sale. I know, he even fix not working clocks and such small things. And at the end you have really nice car with no work needed, which is more expensive then other in market. So it`s up to the buyer, what is his expectation from classic car. If you ask for reference, I would not hesitate to recommed him. If you find something wrong with the car, he works with you.

Very well said. My problem is that I'm only 54 and not a mechanic. So, I have the collector car yearnings you so eloquently presented, but I can't yet smash open my retirement piggy bank. So, silly me, I only want to buy cars that don't need much work, but are priced below the "abandon all rational thinking" threshold.

Yes, Mike will be happy to tell you he sells more luxury (Buicks, Olds, Cadillac, etc.) collector cars than anyone in the world (his words, not mine) which may be correct, but how do you prove that? And, he'll drone on endlessly that his cars need nothing when they sell. Once again, easy to say. But, the previous post does support that claim. So, in Mike's mind, his high prices are justified and in the context his cars may be well sorted-out at his expense, then I'm willing to cut him some slack. But, perhaps the biggest turnoff I can personally speak to is that on the phone he was sooooo cocky. He talked non-stop about how great he was. He would talk continuously for an eternity! I literally could not get a word in edge-wise. On the rare occasion he took a pause, I actually had to say, "Okay, is it my turn to talk now?". He would give me the floor for about 30 seconds so I could offer my opinion on something, then interrupt to tell me I was wrong and off he'd go again. Haven't heard someone talk so much since my mother. I felt I could've put the phone down and walked away for 5 minutes and he'd never know the difference. Not trying to bash the guy, his cars appear very nice. But, his sales technique is terrible. A conversation is supposed to be a 2-way exchange, but his ruthless non-stop approach means the other party is relegated to being the designated listener. I could have possibly warmed up to paying his premium given his car's quality. But, in the final analysis, I found his, "I know everything about everything" dance to be so annoying, I finally had to take my ball and go home. He talked his way out of my pocket. He reminds me of the old joke, "Gee, what an orator, I could've listened to Mike talk all day long . . . . and for a while, I thought I was going to have to".

I don't know this dealer. Maybe he's a great guy.

A car with all problems fixed (as I know another dealer does)

is certainly worth some premium, though not 100%.

But some general observations on human nature:

I've found that people who talk endlessly,

and seem to the layman to know a lot, occasionally

get on a topic that YOU know well. Then, they

often demonstrate that they really don't know what

they're talking about!

"Better to keep quiet and appear ignorant,

than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"