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55 Buick - how to renew the flywheel rope seal at the crankshaft?


buick55

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does anyone know how and/or has good tips to renew the rope seal from the crankshaft which sits behind the flywheel?

maybe a explosion view of the engine would be also very nice.

to see something makes it much easier to understand how it works.

from my last cars i only know only normal oil seals (easy to renew), never saw or change such rope seals :)

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puhhh i dont understand all you have written there, also not why this heating cable.

maybe my english is to bad... :(

so i only need to renew the lower rope seal?

and that would be easy only in the crankshaft housing which is mounted there, right?

does anyone has an explosion view of the engine. that would really help much...

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That's apparently a make-do style of temporary repair. He inserts the wire in the upper half of the rope seal apparently to cause it to swell and so to seal more tightly.

The proper repair is of course to replace top and bottom seals with the crank removed from the engine. You didn't say whether the engine is out or still in the car. We'll assume that it is in, or at least not disassembled. It can be done with the crank in but it is difficult and less reliable. There are a variety of specialty tools available for this purpose. One tool is used to remove the old upper seal and another tool is used to pull the new seal into place. Here are a couple of examples:

This one has a clip on the end of the puller cable to grab the new seal.

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-27000-Sneaky-Pete-Tool/dp/B0002SRCJW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416876823&sr=8-1

This one uses a wire "Chinese finger trap" style gripper to hold the seal for pulling.

http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-492-Seal-Remover-Installer/dp/B0002SRF58/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

It goes easier if you can loosen all the main bearing caps a little bit and let the crankshaft drop away from the block a couple mm to give more room above.

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ahh sorry and thanks, the engine is out of the car and also partial in parts to paint it in the next weeks.

it was completely overhauled by the preowner 7-8 years ago but was driven only 2000 mls until then.

i mentioned a huge oil leak when i drove it into the garage and also when the car stands in the garage.

but could not see if its maybe from the rope seal or only the oil pan itself. so now its out and i want to renew all gaskets/seals.

dont know if it make sense to change the rope seal if its ok.

or is it possible just to check the rope seal if its ok by disassembling only the main bearing cap where bottom parts sits in?

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There is a bit of craftsmanship needed to do a proper rope seal installation. It is not something easily conveyed in text. There are many ways to get it wrong. I imagine that in the days when these were being originally used the person installing one would have had hands-on training in the technique and correct fit from an experienced mentor.

Edited by Wheelnut (see edit history)
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yeah i understand what you mean, but here in germany its difficult to find someone, so i have to to do it by myself and better more information than less ;)

i build many engines in the past, but this is the first time with a rope seal.

for the timing cover rope seal i have a oil seal replacement part from best gaskets.

first of all i just want to remove the bearing cap und check the rope seal there.

when its all ok then i will do nothing, or maybe only change the bottom part.

like i mentioned before overhauling (incl new bearing, pistons, rockers, cam, ...) from the engine was 7-8 years in the past, but the car only drives 2000 mls then.

and thats why i want to check and here its good to know how it works and is assembled. the explosion view shows me every part there, thats nice.

i drove the car a few hundred meters before restoration begun, and i lost oil behind the engine (maybe oil pan, pan screw or rope seal), also when the car sits in the garage.

but the engine was dirty underneath, so difficult to check from which position the oil exactly leaks there.

otherwise engine idles fine, runs smooth, starts perfect.

difficult to explain this in english for me... :)

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If you have the taken engine apart

You might think about a replacement neoprene seal instead of the original type rope seal.

Tom Telesco has neoprene seals for our 1955 Buicks

the best way to contact Tom is by telephone

Tom Telesco

Classic and Muscle Automotive

465 Glenbrook Rd

Stamford, CT 06906-1820

Day Phone 203-324-6045 ET

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Go to nailheadbuick on the web-Russ Martins website.He has tech section that tells how to replace.He as tom telesco are the nailhead gooroos.If they make a neoprene seal he'll have it.Great guy to talk to.Just put the neoprene in my 425-very simple.Goodluck.T.Nugent roa 12969...

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Don't even think of considering that neoprene seal unless someone gives you the part number they used and instructions on installation in an early nailhead. I have never seen or heard of a successful installation in a 322 or 264...but I have seen and heard of many failures! My method will salvage a leaking rope seal and also how to install correctly in the first place. I have 4 early nailheads...they are all dry.

As noted, Telesco and Martin sell parts and often their advise is geared to selling. There are plenty of us here who know which parts will work, but even then ask them if this is first hand knowledge or second hand from an advertisement.

Leaking from the rear of the engine could be engine oil or transmission fluid. Engine oil could be from of course the rear main seal, valve covers, oil filter, and rarely oil galley plugs at the rear of the engine.

Willie

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As a "point of reference", rope seals were "the norm" for almost every '50s-era engine . . . many well into the 1960s, too. When they were in use, almost everybody knew how to replace them as there were NO "rubber seals" for that part of the engine, back then.

The MOTOR Engine manuals of the time told how to, with pictures, of how to change the rope seal in an engine AND do it well. The 1966 edition I have is graphic in this area. ONE of the key things, as I recall, is to ensure the rope is completely seated in the groove, but not completely flush with the top of the groove (unless some compensation needs to be made for when oil contacts it, via swelling).

"The wire" can be used to help push the rope out of the upper groove (with the crankshaft still in the motor!) as the new one is inserted into the same space. To use it to expand the existing seal might be very tricky, unless it might serve as a spacer to space the existing rope a little out of the groove (for tighter contact against the crankshaft) a little.

Typically, many shops just replaced the lower part in the rear main bearing cap unless examination of that part of the seal indicated that the upper half also might need replacement.

ONE thing about the rubber rear main seals, is that many have knurlings on the surface which contacts the crankshaft. These are there to help re-direct oil back INTO THE CRANKCASE. IF the seal might get installed backwards, with the knurlings pointing the wrong direction, then they can act as an "oil pump" to facilitate the travel of crankcase oil OUT of the engine (oil that might contact the seal, get past the inner lip, that is). I learned about that in an article in "Popular Science" (or "Popular Mechanics") magazine regarding a "failed installation" of a neoprene rear main oil seal in an engine.

When introduced, the neoprene (rubber) rear main seal was an advance. In later years, many have produced neoprene seals to replace rope seals, whether in later versions of the same engine families (i.e., small block Chevy) or in re-designs in later years. As mentioned, though, there are still some things which can go wrong with these installations!

As mentioned, a "properly-installed" rope seal will deliver MANY tens of thousands of miles of "dry" service before they might need attention. They worked fine back then and still can, but probably not quite to 100K miles as the neoprene seals might.

In "turning" or machining crankshaft journals, the rear main/thrust area is usually NOT machined in the same manner or amount. Bearing surfaces are usually all that's done, or the equipment is set up to do. A rope seal might wear the entire surface it seals against, even with the "friction-reducer" impregnated into the rope. But then, too, the variability of installation of the rope seal can compensate for that, I suspect.

When using a "lip seal" type of seal, the wear surface is much thinner, which can result in slight "groove" in that particular contact area. Many replacement ( NOT new-old-stock, but "replacement" seals from other makers than the car manufacturers) lip seals (some classed as "problem solvers) will move that contact area slightly, so the new seal contacts "un-worn" metal immediately adjacent to the original lip seal's lip location. This allows for a more consistent seal contact area on the crankshaft, possibly about .035" next to the original "possibly worn" area of the metal, for example. Same with rear axle shaft oil seals, too.

The other thing is that I somewhat suspect the rear rope seal might not be the real culprit in your case. As mentioned, there ARE correct methods to install rear main rope seals. ALL usually came with instructions, just in case the installer might not know how to do it . . . THEN or NOW. NO rocket science, either! But having "a feel" for what is going on might be an advantage. Still, though, just following instructions can be important . . . the correct height of the seal in the groove PLUS the sealer on each end of the rope.

I realize you're in Germany, so conversion of the stated service manual torque figures would need to be converted to metric numbers. BUT if you might have a torque wrench calibrated to English/non-metric numbers, that might help rather than relying on conversion factors.

As common as rope seals were, I would suspect there might be an engine builder in Europe that might help provide you with some tips on how to best make it work. If done correctly, they'll provide many tens of thousands of miles of credible service before needing any attention. Depending on how much you might drive the car . . . many YEARS of service. A little "seepage" might be evident, but I would consider that "normal" as long as it didn't get to the magnitude of "an overnight oil leak" on the pavement. In general, though, there are OTHER areas of that vintage Buick drivetrain which are more prone to oil leakage than a rear main rope seal.

Just some thoughts . . .

Please keep us posted on your progress or the need for further information.

NTX5467

The "rope" is not just a normal piece of rope (as used in equine or agricultural areas), but a specialized rope with special coatings to allow it to "rub" the crankshaft lightly and keep oil in the oil pan. Once installed, it must be "trimmed for length" with a razor blade and "sealed" with a particular seal for things to work correctly.

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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thanks for all your advices.

i checked it today, rope seal seems to be ok. i let the old one in the engine, its only 2000 mls old (but in 7 years).

one leak i found at the oil pan, there was a small hair crack at the screw.

difficult to see, but today i stripped the oil pan to bare metal for painting, then i saw the small crack. no problem to fix it.

i think that was the main problem of my oil leak.

@willie

now i understand your solution with the heater cable :)

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yes, hope that its now all ok :)

i have no problem when the car sits 1 or 2 weeks and a very little oil drip is under the car.

but i have had after 2 weeks a 20 inch big oil drip under the car :)

my beetle engine was also fully overhauled and drips a bit, thats old stuff.

like my grandpa said, if an old engine dont drips a bit, there is no oil in it :D

i think its the same with the dynaflow trans...

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