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Car is back together but still won’t start!


Guest perrymedik

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Guest perrymedik

Got the 49 P-18 all put back together after doing all of that work that you have all helped me with:

- Replaced Generator with Alternator

- Replaced Manifold Thermostat

- Cleaned out oil Pan

- Flushed coolant system

- Primed Fuel System

Here are the symptoms:

- Turn the key, motor makes turning sound, but no attempt to fire. After enough turns, fuel begins to pour out of them over flow hole in the bottom of the Carburetor.

Here is what I do know:

1. New Fuel Pump works because it is flooding the Carb to the point it overflows.

2. The car has been sitting for 3-4 years since the last time I worked on it to get it started. Parts that I installed at that time:

-Reconditioned Carb

-Spark plug wires (self cut to length type)

-Spark plugs (replaced again last week just in case)

-Ignition coil

-Distributor cap

-Condenser

-Rotor Cap

3. I was able to visualize the cylinders moving with the plugs out when the motor was turned by the starter.

4. Spark plug wires were checked with Ohm Meter to verify conductivity.

5. Compression for the cylinders were checked with the following results in PSI:

1. 0 (Obviously an issue)

2. 100

3. 95

4. 110

5. 105

6. 95

6. Battery is brand new (One week old).

Here is what I don’t know:

1. Will the lack of compression in cylinder 1 prevent the motor from trying to start?

2. The Carb was received as reconditioned new. How do I know it set properly?

3. Why the car is over flowing on start up. The gas pedal is not being held down.

4. How do I verify that the plugs are sparking?

5. Why won’t my car start?!?!?!?!? J

I’m going to go bang my head against a wall for a while now while all you great folks tell me what to next (and I will accept taking a long walk off a short pier as a reasonable suggestion! LOL!).

Thanks for everything!

Cory

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Compression issue might be a stuck valve or broken valve spring. To check the spark take off one spark plug wire and hold it with insulated pliers. While cranking the engine hold the wire close to a head bolt. You should see a bright spark. If you do not, reconnect the plug wire and do the same with the main wire from the coil to the distributor. If you have a spark there your problem is in the distributor. If not then take off the distributor cap and making sure the points are closed and with the key on take a screwdriver and open the points. There should be a spark. If not check the wire from the points to the condenser as they are very liable to break. One bad cylinder should not stop the engine from starting or running. Make sure you have the correct cap and rotor for your distributor as there are two distinct styles(high and low) To ensure you have the correct ones they need to be ordered with the distributor number given to the parts place. If they don't need it, they don't know what you have and are not a good place to get parts from. If you have the wrong cap and rotor you will have too much gap between the cap and rotor for the spark to jump and no fire will make it out of the distributor from the coil. Ask me how I know this? The carb would have to be way out of sync to keep the car from starting.

Edited by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)
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First question - Did you ever remove the distributor?

If so then you may have thrown the timing off. Didn't you have this answered earlier on? If so let's go on.

The carb may have a stuck float needle valve. If it has sat for 4 years, like you said, the float needle valve in the carb can stick - either closed (not getting gas into the carb float bowl) or stuck open (getting too much gas into the float bowl) which will cause flooding.

You can try this before removing the top of the carb.

Where the fuel feed line goes into the carb is where the float needle valve is located. Take a wooden or plastic handled screwdriver and rap (tap) on the top of the carb where the inlet fuel line goes into the carb. Sometimes this will free up the float needle valve, sometimes not.

I would think that it would be in your best interest to remove the top horn section of the carb (it's not that complicated to do) and look inside the float bowl. Probably a good idea to clean the float needle valve, too.

One other thing, too. IF you want to adjust the mixture on the carb a simple rule of thumb is to turn the adjustment screw all the way in (don't tighten it just gently turn it until it stops) and then back it out 1 and a half turns. This adjustment will at least get you running and final adjustments can be made later

Also, do as plymouthcranbrook said about checking for spark.

These cars are fairly simple - they only need fuel and spark to run. So narrowing it down is straightforward.

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Guest buickkuhn

The service manual was a must for our p-15 1948 Plymouth special De Lux . here are some schematics from the manual a possible help .

post-103843-143142815777_thumb.jpg

post-103843-14314281578_thumb.jpg

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Guest perrymedik

Thanks to all for the help! I've written it all down and will now go and start working them all out.

Joe Cocuzza: When you say to turn the screw in all the way, the backing out 1 1/2 turns on the carb, which one are you talking about? The Idle or the Mixture?<object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

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Guest perrymedik

Update 1: I verified power to the plugs using this Inline Spark Tester I picked up on the way home today.

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/perrymedik/media/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/Photoon11-5-14at1015AM.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

I was able to witness the light flash for every cylinder. However it was not a very bright light. I don’t know if it is because the tester may be designed for a 12v system, but I would assume that a flashing bulb means the plugs are getting power.

I’ll be moving on to the Carb now. Perhaps the engine is fuel starved? Checking Float, needles, settings, etc.!

On a side note, I’ve ordered a 6v Timing Gun. While I do not believe that I altered the timing, at this point, who knows. . . If the carb isn’t the problem I’ll use the static timing method to try to get her in the ball park.

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Guest buickkuhn

The timing light you can hook a regular present day timing light to a good 12 volt battery (outside of car ) then use the other leads on the car . I have been doing this with my original 41 buick for years with a mac tools dial adjust timing light . good luck

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Guest perrymedik

Update 2:

-Verified that the float was clean, mobile and set at correct height.

- Checked mixture screw and found it was backed out about 3 turns (would that cause the flooding?). Book says ½ to 1 ½ turns so I set it at 1 full turn.

-Tested Outlet Valve Ball per Service Manual and found it to perform as desired.

MORE ABOUT THE LEAK: What I thought was an overflow port on the bottom of the carb turns out the be where the main metering passage is. My book shows a plug of some sort. Guess what my carb does not have? A plug! You can see the rod inside clear as day! I would assume that this means that the fuel isn’t getting up the vent tube to the main discharge nozzle and thus not making it to the plugs so that it can fire!!

I am sure no one will have that on hand at the local auto store. I’ll try to temporarily plug it and see what happens then (while I try to find somewhere that sells the plug that is supposed to go in it.

Also: How do I know if the linkage rod going from the accelerator to the choke tube bracket assembly is set correctly? <object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

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I had a problem with my 37 Plymouth not starting that I like to have never found. After rebuilding the starter, carburetor, new coil, and everything else, it would not start. I removed all the wires from the starter switch. Tied them together and connected them to a six volt battery. I them connected a 12 volt battery to the starter only. The engine fired every time it turned over. I decided to replace the battery cables. That was when I found out what was wrong with the car. Someone had cut the battery cable at the mounting lug where it connected to the engine block and had attached it the frame of the car. It had enough continuity to turn the engine but not fast enough to fire. I replaced the battery cables (positive back to the block), hooked everything back up to six volt. It has never failed to start the first time it turns over. Go figure. Selmer

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Guest perrymedik

Update 3:

I put a temp plug in the Main Metering Jet hole and gave it a few more cranks with some results.

This time I would occasionally get a hollow sounding pop that kind of seemed to be coming out of the carb, but as I was in the cab of the car I’m not sure. I messed around opening and closing the Choke valve but no definitive results from that. I’ll give it a few more whirls, but am not hopeful.

Will check the Static Timing if it doesn’t suddenly spring to life as I can not be certain that I didn’t mess with it years ago.

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Guest perrymedik

STUPID QUESTION TIME:

Where is cylinder #1 located? I am under the assumption that it is in the front (next to the radiator)

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STUPID QUESTION TIME:

Where is cylinder #1 located? I am under the assumption that it is in the front (next to the radiator)

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Correct.

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If you are hearing a "pop" from the carb that is not a good sign - meaning it shouldn't do that

It could mean, as stated before, there is a stuck valve or a few stuck valves. It can also mean the timing is off.

Check the timing.

Also, if you need carb parts I believe CarbKing - not sure about the name - who is a member of AACA, can help

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Guest perrymedik

Update 4:

So I tried to test the timing using the link shel_ny offered up (http://p15-d24.com/p...ips.html#static) to test/set the static timing. I was trying to use this test lamp as the "neon light" that it talked about.

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/perrymedik/media/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/Photoon11-5-14at1015AM.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

It worked when I was spinning the motor with the starter and showed that I was getting power to all of the plugs, but when I tried the static test of rotating the distributor with #1 TDC I didn't get any light.

Next I tried using this tester:

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/perrymedik/media/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/Photoon11-4-14at752PM-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

But still with no luck. Both times I had the non-plug end attached to the Positive Ground terminal of the battery. Both times, no light.

Are both of these lights the incorrect type to use for the test that the link refers to?

I am going to double check that the Distributor isn't installed 180 degrees out. Since #1 cylinder has 0 PSI compression right now after sitting for 5 years, I will see when the #6 pushes air out (Compression stroke) and then the next time #1 comes up I will assume that is its Compression stroke. Then I will see where the rotor is pointing (7 o'clock or 2 o'clock). If it is at the 2 o'clock then I will rotate it by 180 degrees and see what happens then. But I still won't know if it is getting power correctly until I can figure out the test light problem.

I will also attempt to take a video of it turning and maybe that will offer up some more clues to help all of you awesome folks!

Also, how do I install a remote starter switch in the engine compartment? I am working on this alone and don't have anyone to sit in the care and bump the engine for me with the key.

Again, I can't tell you how thankful I am for all of your help!!

Cory

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If you are hearing a "pop" from the carb that is not a good sign - meaning it shouldn't do that

It could mean, as stated before, there is a stuck valve or a few stuck valves. It can also mean the timing is off.

Check the timing.

Also, if you need carb parts I believe CarbKing - not sure about the name - who is a member of AACA, can help

That pop you're getting is from the spark plug at # 1 cylinder because the intake valve is stuck open. Like JFranklin says, your already getting fuel, but it's not arriving at the cylinders. Plymouthcranbrook is partialy correct when he states that one bad cylinder won't keep the engine from starting, unless the intake valve is stuck open because when the #1 piston comes up on the compression stroke it eliminates any vacuum, and forces fuel backward through the intake manifold. Remove the #1 spark plug and while looking toward the intake runner, try to wedge something like a bent screwdriver to catch the top of the intake valve and push it down. You'll probably have to first spray it down heavily with some carb cleaner by inserting the straw from the can into the cylinder in the direction of the valve. Be patient, as you have to alternate between spraying and pushing down on the valve but eventually it should break free. Make sure the cylinder is on the exhaust or compression stroke so that the intake valve is supposed to be closed. Once it's free, your engine should start right up. I've done this successfully on my '49 Ford. Let us know what happens. Good luck!

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Guest perrymedik

Instead of putting a screw driver down there, would it be acceptable to remove the Valve spring cover on the side of the engine and access the valves like that to see if it is sticking? I know that when I turn the engine my wood dowel in the #1 spark plug hole will move up and down. But from looking at my Service manual, I don't see any indication of how to see if the other valve is raising or lowering.

Also, as I am looking down the spark plug hole, am I looking at the intake or exhaust valve? Don't laugh. My service manual has a great cross section view of the engine - but absolutely no labeling at all.

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It would be best to remove the side valve covers. You don't want to stick anything, especially metal, into the spark plug hole trying to wedge the valve. I don't think that would be possible AND why risk chipping the edge of the valve. Removing the valve side covers will give you access to see what exactly is going on. If you have stuck valve(s) you can try to free them up through the side cover area and it's easier to lube the stems this way, too. However, if you cannot free them up then you are going to have to remove the head. I had to do this on a Pontiac Flat 8 (pretty much the same configuration as the Chrysler 6) and it was not very difficult. The only cost was a new head gasket.

What you are seeing moving up and down in the cylinder hole is the piston. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am (correct me, anyone), you cannot see the valves on the flathead engines by looking into the spark plug holes. The valves are off to the side and under the head, which has recessed areas in it for the valves to clear it.

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It would be best to remove the side valve covers. You don't want to stick anything, especially metal, into the spark plug hole trying to wedge the valve. I don't think that would be possible AND why risk chipping the edge of the valve. Removing the valve side covers will give you access to see what exactly is going on. If you have stuck valve(s) you can try to free them up through the side cover area and it's easier to lube the stems this way, too. However, if you cannot free them up then you are going to have to remove the head. I had to do this on a Pontiac Flat 8 (pretty much the same configuration as the Chrysler 6) and it was not very difficult. The only cost was a new head gasket.

What you are seeing moving up and down in the cylinder hole is the piston. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am (correct me, anyone), you cannot see the valves on the flathead engines by looking into the spark plug holes. The valves are off to the side and under the head, which has recessed areas in it for the valves to clear it.

Sorry Joe, I know your intentions are good but with this side valve engine you can see the valves, not the piston, through the plug hole.

As you have not mentioned whether the distributor has been removed, perhaps its worth checking to see if the timing is correct. As #1 has no compression then you can use #6 as your checking point; use the same principle as doing it on #1, feel for compression on #6 and watch for the timing mark until it comes to TDC on the front pulley, if all is correct then the distributor rotor should be pointing at the 2 o`clock (#6) position and the points will just be opening; you can loosen the clamp bolt and rotate the distributor body a small amount to get the points just opening if needs be.

The fact you are getting a "pop" at least tells us that you have fuel and ignition happening but possibly not at the right time, just for the moment put the timing light aside and go through these few simple steps to see what results you get, you can finess things a little later.

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Guest perrymedik

Update 5:

ALL STOP.

Son of a (Am I allowed to curse when I get really frustrated?)!!!!

So, under advice, I set about addressing the problem of the stuck open Exhaust Valve in the #1 Cylinder because I was told that it was contributing to the car not starting because it eliminates any vacuum, and forces fuel backward through the intake manifold. Either way it needed to be addressed.

Thanks to Plymouth Adams, I did another round turn on my Service Manual and Parts Manual and came to the realization that what several had told me earlier about removing the Valve Covers was not as difficult as I had thought. As a matter of fact, it would have been much easier to do it when it was suggested because the Intake and Exhaust manifolds were not on.

Regardless, off come the Manifolds and then the Timing covers. What a horror show awaited me inside!!

IMG_3628.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3628.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3630.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3631.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3632.jpg

But wait there is more!!! Not only was the Exhaust Valve stuck open but check out this spring action!!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3646.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3648.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/perrymedik/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/IMG_3649.jpg

Looks broken to me! Ain’t that great folks! I think its just wonderful! >:-/

But the good news is that I picked up an awesome little remote starter so I was able to take a look at what was going on under there while the motor was trying to crank.

Here is the Forward Valve Compartment with the stuck Exhaust Valve.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-KH5_kn__fA?list=UUzamB2haoFaqOBaTj6Y48Xw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And then here is the Rear Valve Compartment, filthy but moving smoothly.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Rib3Oj6MsxI?list=UUzamB2haoFaqOBaTj6Y48Xw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So now I guess it is time to read up on how to change out that valve spring.

But hell, since I’m going to have to take the top off, I might as well re-do all the valves an springs and whatever other little parts are involved.

Can anyone recommend a good rebuild kit?

I’m open to thoughts and ideas. Thinking about drinking myself to sleep tonight. LOL!

Thanks to all!

Cory

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Guest perrymedik

Good point! Thanks!

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Guest perrymedik

Update 6:

Got the access panel off under the front passenger finder. Cleaned it all out. Spring is definitely broken.

45A351E1-3B73-4738-886E-9D5FF363F562_1.jpg

Been soaking the whole valve train in PB Blaster penetrating oil all morning and have rented a valve spring compressor tool. Going to give removal a try here shortly. Fingers crossed it’s easy-ish. . .

Then it will be time to give everything a thorough clean, lap the valves and begin reinstall.

To be honest, I’m having fun now that I’m done being mad! LOL!

Thanks to all!!

Cory

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Guest perrymedik

Wrong tool or wrong method?

I rented this Spring Compression tool from AutoZone today.

06392627-DB41-42CE-8BB9-A83E711C5A29.jpg

It describes putting the pin on the center of the valve top and then compressing.

I put a piece of hard wood over the valve then did as it instructed because I was nervous about putting the metal against metal and causing a scratch.

When I put pressure all it did was torque the jaws around the spring and make the puller bow and didn’t move the spring up at all.

After straightening out the jaws I put wood blocking around the valve head to make a raised bridge and compressed.

8C41BF36-E769-4695-B52E-6D56F6CC1740.jpg

The spring and valve both rose. The locks (keepers) did not come out of the retainer. I used a magnet to try to encourage them, but no luck. I tried to tap around the bottom of the retainer get the locks to fall, but there really wasn’t much space due to the jaws of the compression tool being in the way.

2599EE65-529B-4DF8-96E8-31E01FB3ABDB.jpg

I searched the site for “Spring Compression Tool” and found this tool posted by Don Coatney.

http://p15-d24.com/topic/35374-valve-spring-compression-tool/?p=359494

While this tool does seem to be a bit more sturdy, it was noted that the spring and valve both rose, much like mine is doing.

Is it okay once I get the spring and valve raised to strike the top of the valve with a rubber dead blow hammer to push the valve assembly down and out of the spring? I don’t want to damage it. I found Youtube videos detailing the process on modern engines, but could not find a how to on flat six’s. Some say that you can strike the top of the valve, and some say that if you do, you can not reuse the valve.

I would also like to mention that my Service Manual is explicitly unhelpful on the matter. It says under the ‘Removal and Inspection’ section, and I quote “Remove the valves and brush away all carbon. . .” End story. No other help offered.

My searches on the web have all lead to articles about modern engines, but nothing of use for my situation.

A little help please?

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I usually put a bunch of string or rope in the cylinder above the piston. Leave the tail out of the spark plug hole to remove. The rope will hold the valve closed while you compress the spring. The smaller side vale tool is the best one for the job.

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What about laying a piece of wood on top of the valve head and use the compressor the way it says to. The only difference would be that you will put the pin on the wood and not the valve itself.

The problem with the "bridge" method is that you need to hold the valve down while compressing the spring otherwise - as you can see - the valve just rises up.

In newer engines with overhead valves that is why compressed air is pumped into the cylinders - to hold the valves closed while removing the spring and retainers.

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I usually put a bunch of string or rope in the cylinder above the piston. Leave the tail out of the spark plug hole to remove. The rope will hold the valve closed while you compress the spring. The smaller side vale tool is the best one for the job.

DUH...I see you have the head off. Disregard my post above.

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Guest perrymedik

Joe, that was the very first method I used. As I mentioned it resulted in bending the forks and bowing the frame of the clamp.

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I wouldn't be afraid to tap the valve down. Maybe with a piece of wood on it so as to even out the blow. Or use a dowel and center it. I don't think it will take much and you probably would want to replace the valves anyway.

I don't think valves and springs would set a guy back to much on one of these (I would be hesitant to do less, like one spring or one valve). Would these parts be something that the military guys would have?

To bad the pan is back on, rings would be easy (in car) as well.

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Guest perrymedik

BOOM!!

It’s OUT!!! It was magical!!! It really was!

I used the method of moving the valve up by rotating the engine, blocking the spring, rotating the tappet assembly down again, then playing whack a mole on the valve with a large drift and small hammer.

E0AAC0BF-0904-4052-8802-944E4C933596.jpg

Two taps and it dropped. My magnet caught the keepers and the blocks and spring were removed! It was great!!

The spring was in worse shape then I thought. Good thing a new one is on the way!

70F638C6-BB02-4E14-B7EB-FA6A3B20C9B7.jpg

Now I have to figure out how to get the valve guide out. Does it push up and out, or down and out? I’m thinking down and out, other wise I would think the action of the spring and valve would push it up into the valve every time it rises.

Now for the rest of the valves!

I love progress!!

Thank you to everyone for your assistance! Without you I would still be at square one!!

More to follow!

Cory

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Guest perrymedik

Valves are out!!

29374E99-A51E-4FA2-9C52-BAFABE2AB984.jpg

And cleaned up!!!

D41E6AF7-E88B-4A3E-965F-D6B9F779E151.jpg

It’s like new money!!

Going to clean the intake and exhaust seats in the morning along with the valve chamber.

Hopefully the Freeze Plugs will be in and I can seal that up too!

Next project for the evening is making a plug for the carb.

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Replacing valve guides is not a home handyman job, they are pressed in and out (usually with heat) then need to be reamed very carefully to a close tolerance to suit the valve stem dimensions. As a rough estimate re fitting clearance, if you place the valve in the guide, hold your finger over the lower end of the guide, then lift the valve up and out of the guide, you should hear a soft "pop" and feel a little suction on your finger as the valve leaves the guide, this is a sign of a good fit. If the valve binds or wobbles about in the guide you really need some professional assistance in replacing the guide/s.

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It would seem that I had misunderstood the direction I was going. Valve guides are staying in place!<object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

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I’m sure tricks like this are old hat to you experienced wrench turners out there, but this is my first and it’s rather exciting!! I used the suggestion of making a ball out of solder. It took some trial and error, but I got it! I set it in using a drift punch and some very light hammer tapping.

Now here’s to hoping that it doesn’t fall out! LOL!

18B0EC42-B3B3-467D-80DF-BC2FD28834BF.jpg

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Rain, rain, GO AWAY!!!! :(<object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

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Guest perrymedik

Look at what my absolutely awesome wife got for me today while she was out so I could keep working and keep the car dry while it's raining and ugly out!!

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