401 Nailhead Break-in Woes

Some of you may already know from my 65 Riv build thread that I had my Nailhead rebuilt almost two years ago. If I didn't mention in my build thread that this is my first build & probably should've tried a frame-off on a Nova before a 65 Riviera. Unfortunately, a frame-off was never my plan nor was letting my freshly built Nailhead sit around for 2 years

This short video was from finally breaking in my 401 two days ago. She sounded good & the Waldron's Imposter muffler purred nicely. 3 minutes later, my heart sank! As the saying goes "if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all"

I am here to share my epic FAIL!

DO NOT let your engine sit for two years & expect all to go well. Not that I thought it would go smooth but now both heads are off & back at the machine shop. I had a valve seize in the guide which caused a chain reaction. The casualties are one push rod, one intake valve & its accompanying guide.

I guess the good news is that this happened in my garage not on the road. I am sure things would've been catastrophic if I was driving.

http://youtu.be/nuIMt4kZB7U

Very sorry to hear about this David. Thanks for giving good advice concerning our engines. It's amazing how something can break through non-use but that's exactly the case with these old cars. I tried to view the video but it said it was deleted?????

Hang in there David......the problem with doing a frame-off on a Nova is that you would be driving a Nova when the project

is finished instead of a rolling work of art by Bill Mitchell!

Hang in there David......the problem with doing a frame-off on a Nova is that you would be driving a Nova when the project

is finished instead of a rolling work of art by Bill Mitchell!

Very true!

arnulfo

I don't think that is what they meant when they said break it in.

David did you turn oil pump and crank to oil before starting.Im getting ready to start mine after rebuild.Mine dropped a valve into the piston and put a hole in the cylinder wall.After startup im going to post before and after pics with the help of Ed(Rivnut).Good luck.T.Nugent ROA 12969...

Hang in there David......the problem with doing a frame-off on a Nova is that you would be driving a Nova when the project

is finished instead of a rolling work of art by Bill Mitchell!

No offense to any Chevy or specifically Nova lovers but truer words were never spoken!

Tom Mooney

Dave,

I`m skeptical that the motor being idle for awhile in a California climate would produce enough corrosion on a valve stem to cause it to seize in the guide. Are you using fresh fuel? Was there any signs of corrosion on internal parts? Or did the machine shop setup one of the valves too tight in a guide?

Tom

Tom would timing being off be an issue with daves problem?Thanks T.N...

Gentlemen, thank you for the support , you guys are great, beer can only do so much haha

Darren, I think I got the video link to work now. I had to use a youtube link, thats a first for me. Other than the slightly rough idle nothing seemed out of the norm. Especially, after I figured out that I had the distributor clocked 180 degrees off. I've listened to this video clip over & over trying to pick something out but all I get is a good laugh each time I hear my son yell "I heard that" from inside the house when it almost fired haha

Winston & Arnulfo, you are both right, these cars are rolling art work. I agree but it probably would've helped to get my feet wet on a simpler project. I've caught myself barking "never again will I build another car"...I'm sure it will all pay off & the good will out weigh the bad. I can't wait for that day haha

Jeff, I do most of my forum chatting from my phone. Everything is much smaller, including our avatars. I had to get on my desktop to get this video link to work & I see your avatar shows you're a Marine. ahhhh Devildog & weightlifting, its all coming together now. As you can tell from my "break-in woes" I am not the sharpest tool in the shed Haha...bottom line, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, SIR & I love the humor thanks. Thanks to all military service men on this forum. 

T. Nugent, sorry to hear about your engine. good luck on the rebuild, looking forward to your pix. I pulled the coil wire & all spark plugs were taken out. I cranked the starter for 30 sec intervals with the valve covers off until I got oil pouring out of each rocker. It only took about 4 attempts.

Tom, your right, I don't think rust was the culprit either. I did turn the motor by hand a good 4-6 full rotations about 7-10 times in the 2 years it sat. I did use fresh fuel for my break in. The machinist also thought that it might've been bad fuel when he found what he thought was a gummy substance in the other guides. Ultimately, I think it was assembly lube that wasn't fully broken down yet. I gave the machine shop all the specs from Russ Martins site before the engine was built. He may not have followed the specs, I think he set the tolerances too tight. He is not taking full responsibility but I impressed him by not barking at him, taking the heads off myself & running parts for him. All said & done, he only charged me $106 for new gaskets, a new valve & one guide. I am pleased... things could always be worse as with T. Nugents engine.

Thanks again boys, I will re-assemble my "rolling art work" this weekend & report back.

OK David: I have been down a similar road as you are experiencing. I wouldn't consider it beating a dead horse in stating, with getting a fresh engine going again that soon fails is very similar to diagnosing a problem with a vehicle (or anything for that matter). I am not close to being a mechanic and do not claim to be.

I have found that diagnosing seems to be a procedure. Part of the procedure is to understand how something goes together, isolate the problem and of course determine why the components/s failed. I am in the midst of a 401 rebuild now. I considered the idea of finishing it myself. Instead, I gave the job to a competent mechanic that I trust. My pocket book is lighter but I hope to circumvent the problem I had in the past.

I had a transmission shop do a rebuild for me on a truck a few years back and it failed within 100 miles. The shop was eager to fix the problem and insisted in finding out what actually failed. The problem was corrected and the shop owner explained to me how that could have been a constant problem had they not really looked into the mistake in assembly. I wish I could have the guy who's doing my job run the thing on a stand for a few hours before he puts it back in but, I'll trust that he knows his business. Good luck with your engine. Mitch

JMO the same would have happened when you fired her up two years ago. You got off easy my friend.

You make a damn good point, and if i had a shop that specialized in rebuilding engines i would in fact have a bench test setup and i would do the break-in at the shop to avoid unforeseen crap ending up in my customer's hands. Then again, i don't have this mystical shop with a engine test stand, but i have in fact seen them....so they do exist in places. Hell, i have seen guys that build motors that have engine dynos and will print up the specs on your specific rebuilt engine. I would venture a guess that these guys don't come cheap, but you get what you pay for.

There is a reason they are not all over the place though. I know we talked about it at my shop and Doug pretty much shot the idea down. Reason being, most of our customers don't want a dyno spec sheet and are not willing to pay for it. Of the 4 engines we did last year, only one was a rebuild. We took in 3 cars with shelled engines that ended up putting in motors from a place in Texas that sells low miles Japanese import engines. The price can't be beat. Bottom line is that people are not willing to pay for the work and the time involved in a rebuild.

People want their cars to run and don't budget for catastrophic failures like engines and transmissions. So if and when these do indeed fail they are a bit leery of paying you the 18.7 shop hours(by the book in this last case) for just replacing the long block, let alone rebuild costs. They skimp on the rebuild and buy a used one in some cases. Can't say i blame them in all cases, but in my own personal driver i will pay to have someone do it correctly and stand behind it if i cannot do it myself.

David, sorry for the mishap, I will make sure I prime the oil pump, soak the lifters and goop up the cam lobes and lifters with Isky moly lube, hopefully I will be ready by mid Dec. Is that a big Thermoquad carb you have , looks like a 66 manifold? When you get a chance shoot me a pic of the moon valley pan and manifold notching on the fins you had to do to make it fit.

I'm guessing that it's a Carter 9000 series AFB.

You are correct Rivnut, I was looking at 66 manifolds last night and that one is different.

Mitch, I originally only took one head to the machinist. After he took it apart he asked me to bring the other head to him. I truly feel the guide/valve tolerances were set too tight. But of coarse I never really got a definitive answer. Let's hope for his sake he did like your transmission guy & learned what not to do for future jobs.

Mike, I am certain this would've happened two years ago also. I was only stating that my statues of limitations was probably out the window by allowing two years to pass. Fortunately, yes I did get off easy, 106 buck is not bad at all.

Jeff, this machine shop I used was not set up for breaking in freshly rebuilt motors. Although, in the two years that have past, I did see they expanded to the machine shop with a huge carport like structure. I suggested the advise you mentioned about offering a "break-in" service for customers & he was very receptive...

Greg, good luck on your engine, that will be a sweet xmas gift to yourself if mid Dec works out. Sorry, I don't know what a Thermoquad carb means lol. Ed is right, this is a 650 cfm Carter AFB Comp Series carb, model #9605S. I also don't know what to look for in the differences between intake manifolds (other than single & dual). So I don't know what I have, this is what came on the car when I bought it 20+ years ago. Oh, I did learn this is NOT a 65 Nailhead, it's actually out of a 62 Invicta maybe thats why the intake looks different? Or maybe it just looks different cuz its red instead of tractor green lol

I hope you took me the right way. I wasn't saying your machinist is shady in any way, i was just saying i personally would like to have my hands on it and be rock solid in my thoughts on the car being right as rain before i turn it over to a customer. The more extensive the repair the longer i want to have it in my hands prior to turning it over. If i do even an engine swap i drive it around town for a day or two for a shakedown. Also, i totally agree that 106 bucks is getting off damn cheap and i am happy you did not get bit worse than that.

As to having an engine stand to break in motors and such, i guess it isn't really all that necessary if you have the car itself. It would just make it a lot easier if you shelled it upon break-in to tear it down and find out what went wrong. In a perfect world where parts did what they were supposed to do and everything breaks in correctly this would not even be necessary. Unfortunately, we have all seen long time motor rebuilders with stories of flat cams within 10 minutes of start-up and worse lately. Different machining practices, break-in oils, and people just being more few and far between that work on 50 year old cars all plays a factor i am sure. I know the number of people i would consider old hands on old cars has been cut in half since i went to auto school 20 years ago to now. The number of machine shops in my area has gone from 7 to 1 in that same time.

Jeff, I totally understood u correctly. This machinist is, in my book, "old hands". I used to skateboard past his shop as a kid. Then at 18 years old my boss at my first wrenching job was buddy's with the same machinist. I struggled with whether to send my Nailhead to Russ Martin or to my local guy for nothing else but sentimental reasons.

I am on schedule to fire this old girl up again tomorrow. I will let u guys know the outcome.

Pray for me, wish me luck, cross your fingers & toes

David

Ok fellas, thanks for the support. I got my 401 (413) back together, fired it up & all went well. My two buddy's in the video helped me wire in a starter button so that I can fire it up whenever I want...pretty cool.