Dead '58 Super-no power. HELP!

After pulling the '58 out of the garage and washing the top and underside, I went to drive it around the block before putting her back in the garage. When I hit the curb at the end of the driveway, the car quit.

Now I have no power anywhere. Battery shows 12.5 volts. 12.5 volts at the starter.

I have no lights, no crank, nothing.

It's acting like a dead short. I've checked all the visible wiring, body harness, dash wiring, etc and I don't see anything that could possibly be shorting out.

This is the car that had the entire wiring harness "professionally" replaced, including most switches and gauges attached.

I checked the coil wire, starter wiring, generator wiring, etc.

I've got an inclined driveway, so I've given up for the night and called AAA to come put it in the garage for me.

At this point I'm thinking voltage regulator or ignition switch. Would either of those cause a complete loss of power to the entire car, lights, ignition, etc?

HELP!

Electrical is a weakness of mine, so please be thorough in any explanation or ideas.

I've got to work all day tomorrow, so it will likely be Monday before I get a change to do much more troubleshooting.

Is there a fusible link on the main power feed from the starter solenoid to the fuse block?

Sure sounds like a blown fusible link...

They typically look like this:

You're looking for evidence of melted or damaged wire and/or insulation.

You would still have battery voltage at the positive solenoid post, but there will be no conductivity to the main fuse panel if the link is blown.

To repair it, you remove the blown link and replace it with a new one of the same rating.

If it immediately blows again, you're going to have to do some investigative work to find and eliminate the short that causes it too blow.

I had the ignition wire going to the starter solenoid melt against the heat shield on the starter and made the same thing happen. Look very closely at the wires at the starter area, and make sure nothing is broken or melted, etc. It really sounds like a "fusible link" situation. I don't think the 58's had a link like that, though...so I would concentrate on looking for the short. Or the connection/terminal at the starter. Also check terminal at the ignition switch.

It sounds to me like a dirty battery terminal. Were the cables changed when the electrical system was replaced?

Thanks guys! I'll jack her up and take a look, probably not until Monday though.

Brian. The hot positive block where the positive battery cable connects to from the battery is just a lead based distribution block and has the yellow starter relay wire and ignition wires attached to it. Trace your current starting from this positive block connection down and out for each wire. Consult the shop manual master colored wire schematic at the back of the manual. A bad voltage regulator will not prevent the car from having voltage for lights and starting. This indicates a main source has been disrupted. The firewall connection is also a culprit as all the wiring goes through at this point. Although your new wiring harness was done by "professionals" it is always good to remember that the Titanic was built by professionals and the Arc was built by an novice amateur. :')

I had a similar problem with my '53 a while back. The fix was to remove all the wires/cables from the starter and solenoid to the battery and clean the terminals. After this was done it starts every time.

Gary

Is there a fusible link on the main power feed from the starter solenoid to the fuse block?

Sure sounds like a blown fusible link...

They typically look like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]277416[/ATTACH]

You're looking for evidence of melted or damaged wire and/or insulation.

You would still have battery voltage at the positive solenoid post, but there will be no conductivity to the main fuse panel if the link is blown.

To repair it, you remove the blown link and replace it with a new one of the same rating.

If it immediately blows again, you're going to have to do some investigative work to find and eliminate the short that causes it too blow.

It appears to be a solid strand wire, no fusable link? Can anyone confirm that for 1958?

I cleaned terminals and installed a new battery ground wire.

I removed the 3 wires going to the starter, removed the last of the original cloth wiring, cleaned, verified continuity and rewrapped.

I reinstalled all connections at the positive junction block and the starter.

I reinstalled all 3 connections at the starter solenoid.

Is it ok that I added a touch of dielectric grease to ensure good connectivity? Or was that a bad idea?

When I reconnected the negative terminal, I now get a spark and if I leave it connected, the negative terminal heats up and I get a bit of smoke from the positive junction block. I did put a layer of electrical tape on top of the original block to ensure no grounding there. This shouldn't get hot enough to melt the electrical tape should it? I'm afraid to leave it connected due to the smoke.

I could remove the electrical tape and dielectric grease and try again?

Could the starter solenoid be fried inside causing the issue?

Could it be the (negative?) relay (manual calls it a solenoid relay) next to the positive relay that is causing the problem? It looks original, but could be a NOS replacement. I can't go by the "professional" that rewired it as they billed me for new starter cables and battery cables, but did not replace them......

I've got the shop manual out, but the wiring diagrams in it are so tiny and sparse that they aren't helping me much.

Attached is a before and after pic of the junction block. I'm certain I reconnected everything the same way I took it apart. Also a shot of the starter solenoid now.

I can't try to trace current with the current problem....

Update:

I removed the positive lead from the starter solenoid and have the same issue.

I removed the positive junction block from the fender and no sparks? I assume this is supposed to be completely isolated from the body and might be shorting? Would a piece of rubber between the block and fender be appropriate to isolate this, at least temporarily?

Okay, it looks like this block is both positive and negative. I bolted the positive leads together separate from the block and athe ignition showed some signs of life when I turned the key, but nothing from the starter. I initially got a little reaction from the gauges, but now nothing. Still no lights, etc...

I am now getting 12 volts at both terminals on the starter solenoid.

Brian, the tape on top of the positive junction block is over kill and can be removed. Can you tip the junction block upside down? I believe there is a one resistor under there. Is this warped such that it touches the fender when the block is installed?

In any case, obviously you should not leave the battery attached , or even reconnect it, while you have a short circuit.

No resistor.

"I am now getting 12 volts at both terminals on the starter solenoid."

Unless it is actively starting there should only be 12v at the main cable from the battery via the junction block. During starting the start switch on the carb sends a signal to the starter relay which sends 12v down the wire next to the large main cable to energize the starter solenoid to complete the circuit to the starter motor. The solenoid also at this time sends 12v (yellow wire) to by the ignition resistor during starting.

With smoke present on large cables you have such a dead short probably in or around the solenoid that everything shuts down. Remove the cable from the solenoid and everything except the starter should work.

no change with all 3 wires removed from the starter.

The 12 volts at the starter solenoid was from pos to S and Pos to R, not S to R.

I've checked the body harness, the wires to the headlight switch, the wires to the ignition, wiring to the generator. I can't find anything wrong....but still no power anywhere.

I'm hoping it's something very simple that I'm just overlooking.

I've got the generator and starter disconnected at the moment.

Voltmeter reads 12 volts from positve block to both sides of the coil and to both sides of the carburetor ignition switch.

I only get 12 volts to 2 of the terminals on the relay adjacent to the battery distribution block.

Does that make sense?

What should I disconnect next or is there something I should jumper to try to isolate the problem?

This is the diagram I am working from.

The following is based on the '57 wiring diagram

When you touched the + cable to the +post of the battery and you got a spark, did the ammeter (discharge indicator) in the dash deflect to the negative side? If not, the fault was in the starter circuit not the main wiring harness. Now in order to track the problem, you need an ohm meter. With the ohm meter black(-) attached to some place on the engine block, test for continuity through the +cable (detached from the battery). If you have continuity, then disconnect the +cable from the terminal block. Test the terminal on the block. if yes, it could be the terminal block. But test the other connections too. Disconnect any remaining wires from the terminal block. Test the connections on the terminal block for continuity. If yes, then the terminal block is bad. Now, keep going. test the heavy starter cable (from the terminal block to the starter) for continuity. If yes, then another problem exists. If no, then test the remaining wires. If no, then test the yellow wire from the terminal block to the starter solenoid. If no then go to the black wire. if yes on the yellow, probably a bad solenoid. (shorted). The black goes to the ammeter and should have deflected to the negative when you touched the + cable to the battery terminal. From the ammeter, the circuit continues via a red wire to the battery terminal of the voltage/current regulator. The ammeter needle should have deflected if the voltage regulator was shorted (another possible problem , and the likely one). A shorted generator could also be the problem. As a lay electrician, anyone else is free to be critical of this diagnosis.

Dan

You have basic components to each sub-circuit; the power supply, the switch, the load, and the wire. Each load has a measurable resistance. The wires, except the resistance wire, will measure infinity. Kill the power and switch the meter to ohms. Disconnect each wire and check continuity between each termination. Then check from a terminal end to ground, Continuity of the wire to ground means a short. You may need to make a jumper wire 6 to 10 feet long with alligator clips at each end to connect the meter probes.

The best check sheet you could make is a ladder diagram of the drawing you attached with the left side being the 12 volt positive side and the right being the negative. Check off each subcircuit as it is verified.

With the wire disconnected from the particular load fed, check the ohmic value from the feed connection terminal to ground. All the loads should read some value with greater amp loading devices being higher. A reading of infinity on a load indicates a problem.

Go through each wire and each load. I would leave the wires disconnected and tagged as I worked through. The problem should show up fairly soon.

Bernie

It was the negative battery terminal that sparked and got hot. All gauges are currently all the way to the left, except the ammeter which is sitting dead center regardless of ignition key location.

The center contact on the voltage regulator appeared stuck. I just popped it loose.

Contacts on points are not stuck.

I have hooked the generator back up for these continuity tests, but not the starter solenoid. I took it apart to see if anything was melted and I have a new one coming as I don't trust it put back together by me. . Everything appeared ok, all wires were connected. I think I may have overtightened it when I put it back together and twisted a wire off.

As a baseline, the negative battery cable is hooked up, positive is not.

Negative terminal did show a 7.7, but now it's only showing .6

Positive cable started at 200 (that's the ohm setting I'm using) and counted down?

Terminal block shows nothing with the three wires disconnected.

black wire shows 145. I think this goes to the ammeter.

Negative side of the terminal block shows. 1.2

I tested the actual starter wires earlier when I rewrapped them and confirmed continuity of the wires themselves.

I don't know if I did these tests correctly.

I think I'm going to just put everything back together and call around and see if I can find a mechanic who might know what he's doing on this.

The generator was reading a high charge the few times we drove it after the new wiring harness was installed and has been getting hotter than the one on my '59. Same "professional" rebuilt it. I wasn't sure if the issue was the generator, NOS ammeter, or voltage regulator. The car was only running yesterday long enough to pull out of the garage, then back in. Not long enough for anything to overheat. Maybe 10 minutes total.

The generator is not showing any signs of the core melting and disconnecting the generator being connected/disconnected was not making any difference in the electrical status of the car.

I'm getting continuity to the headlight connectors and horn wires as well....just no functional power. Ugh.

I've got a spare voltage regulator, but someone else said a bad one wouldn't affect lights and horn....but I can put it on and try?

The one on the car has a sticker that says not to ground the "F" terminal...does that mean it doesn't need "polarized" after power has been disconnected?

I've wasted all day on this.....and gotten nowhere buy dirty.

And I'm running out of light. And patience.

Running out of patience and some guy tells you to draw a picture and disconnect every wire and check every device. That ought to push you over the edge. Let it rest a bit, hell I bet after a good dinner you won't think of it until...........you wake up at 2 AM.

Bernie

I'm changing her name from Snow White to Christine....All I wanted to do was take some pictures for an Ebay ad.....AAAARRRGGGHHHHHH!

As a last ditch effort for the night, I pulled the voltage regulator.

I found that it was missing the rubber grommet on the bottom, possibly allowing a short.

I reinstalled it with the grommet and no dice. No change.

The Voltage regulator I have as a spare is questionable.

It's a Duralast VR699. According to AutoZone's website, the correct one is VR1199. I'm sure they sold it to me for my '59, which uses the same one.

The visible difference is that it has 2 resistors on the bottom instead of 3 and it's half the price.

AZ lists it as correct for a Canadian emissions car???????

I'm considering trying it...not that I expect a change, but....

Brian,

Be careful about slandering that Christine name thing around in the heat of the moment.

My wife's name is Christine and sometimes you need to tread lightly:

Bernie

Going back to post #8 above, there is this : I cleaned terminals and installed a new battery ground wire.

I removed the 3 wires going to the starter, removed the last of the original cloth wiring, cleaned, verified continuity and rewrapped.

I reinstalled all connections at the positive junction block and the starter.

When I think of cloth covered wires I think of cars older than 56, since my 56 has colored vinyl insulation on all wires ( except the radio). So I am assuming the cloth is the shield that the two wires to the solenoid are run through on the way to the starter. The two wires themselves should be individually insulated by colored vinyl, in which case there should be no need for that electrical tape. But your comment also makes me think that these two wires were not replaced by the "professional" and are the original wires?

If you found that the ends of either of these wires had deteriorated or melted vinyl insulation then chances are these two wires are compromised within the cloth shield, where you cannot see it. One thing is for certain. If you had heat generated in a battery cable that you could feel then these smaller wires were probably much hotter at that moment, and could have fused together. I am not certain about the effect of them being fused as related to your no power to anything situation.

It would seem that if they are fused then the starter solenoid would think you are trying to start the car. And I do not know why the starter is not spinning. But I do wonder if the solenoid was clicking at all when you touched the negative cable to the battery?

In reviewing the wiring diagram for my 56, and without any training in reading the same, it looks like the power for the rest of the car comes from two sources. For the horns and lights the battery terminal at the Voltage Regulator is the source. For all keyed items the ignition switch is the source.

The ignition switch is supposed to provide the power to the starter relay and thus the thick black wire to the solenoid. If your two wires to the starter solenoid have fused together then the ignition switch is bypassed. What baffles me is that this diagram shows a yellow wire coming off the positive junction block and going to the coil which in my mind says the coil is powered at all times? I don't understand that at all.

None-the-less, in this situation I would consider running a new set of wires to the solenoid if these were never replaced.

I will recheck those wires and possibly replace them.

The main starter wire (2-4 gauge maybe?) appeared to have a cloth like coating that was still completely intact, but was overwrapped with another cloth layer. It may have been rubber with the imprint of the cloth overlay? I removed the layer that was falling apart and wrapped only as an extra precaution. The 2 smaller wires were standard rubber coated wire. I thought I checked those for continuity as well, but will recheck them.

Installed the new starter solenoid last night. No change.

I'll work on it again Wednesday, although I have a lot of house repairs I need to get to in the next 3 weeks as well.

I am going in for rotator cuff surgery on 11/25 and won't be able to do much of anything for months. That's part of my frustration...I am on a tight timeline to get this car back up and running.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm doing the best I can to follow it!

I'm sure what it really needs is a second set of eyes.

Good call JD.

I think that the large gauge (starter) wire was actually cloth insulated originally. Then joined together with the smaller yellow wire in the cloth conduit.

Brian,

I sent you a PM on the 59 div site.

Is there a ground wire between the generator body and the base of the voltage regulator?

Sorry if this is redundant. I haven't read through each posting in this thread yet.

rg

In reviewing the wiring diagram for my 56, and without any training in reading the same, it looks like the power for the rest of the car comes from two sources. For the horns and lights the battery terminal at the Voltage Regulator is the source. For all keyed items the ignition switch is the source.

Regards the section above, I was wrong. After reviewing some more of the manual last nite I can see that the power source for the electrical accessories beyond the starter is the 10 gauge black wire that is mounted to the same post as the battery terminal, on the battery terminal block. I would still think the two wires going to the starter could be compromised and should be checked and or replaced. But I do not think those two wires being compromised are the main problem.

If I understand the manual correctly,, and remembering Brian's comments about the generator getting hot and the amp gage riding high on the charge side, I am now thinking the generator has been compromised and is shorting to ground. I also think the Voltage Regulator is part to blame, and should be changed.

There is section 10-22 in the 56 manual about the voltage regulator. It is grounded to the fender and there is supposed to be a wire from the base to the generator frame to ensure it is grounded. Then it describes the function of the three relays in the unit. The first is the cut out relay. That is supposed to open to prevent the battery from discharging to ground "through the generator" when the engine is stopped or the generator is operating below the voltage of the system. The other two relays serve the electrical system depending on the output of the generator vs the requirements of the system while the engine is running.

Then in the manual there is section 10-23 regarding the generator. It says in section a-2 that overcharging usually results when the generator field is grounded either internally or at the regulator.

I also wonder if the battery terminal block has been compromised by the electrical resistance heat. I read where Brian said he removed the battery cable and the 10 gauge wire and bolted them together and then for a few seconds he had some ignition response. The other two wires to the small terminal on that block are the yellow wires that come from the R terminal on the solenoid and go to the coil to provide 12 volts to the coil to start the engine. What I don't know is if that smaller terminal is independent or connected to the larger terminal. It would seem it should be independent because if it wasn't then the coil would get 12 volts all the time, when we know that is incorrect. But I don't know that for certain.

There is a fuse on the 58 voltage regulator. Many years ago I had a voltage regulator go bad on my then driver. The shop replaced the voltage regulator with the wrong one, because my car had factory air and it took a different voltage regulator than 58's without factory air. The shop did not install the fuse either, and the voltage regulator shorted, and burned up the entire wiring harness. The Buick dealer had to replace the who wiring harness. Just a thought from the past. And since I'm 76 now, I might not remember the whole scenario exactly.....but it sure comes back as a significant happenstance.....one of many with that 58 Buick. I won't list all of the weird breakdown stuff here.

Brian,

Look at figure 10-80 on page 10-92 of the chassis manual. This is the engine compartment to instrument panel connectors. Check the three 10 ga wires in the middle of the harness. You will have to remove the upper connector to see the screw terminals.

Make sure the three connector are in the proper order.

Starter Relay - Ignition Switch (10 ga Pink) towards the center of the car

Battery - Ammeter (10 ga Black) center location

Generator Regulator - Ammeter (10 ga Red) towards outside of car

All accessories rely on the middle one (10 ga Black) that passes through the ammeter (charge indicator) that goes to a junction point under/behind the instrument panel "after" the ammeter. Everything is fed from that point.

I sure would look at a re-work of the generator and close look at the voltage regulator. The "hot" issue is probably related to the VR, maybe a stuck set of contacts inside. Not good

The generator "must' be installed and connected for the start circuit to work properly in just about every Buick with accelerator pedal start. It is in the ground circuit for the small starter relay in the fenderwell.

rg

Thanks Guys. It will probably be next monday or Tuesday night before I get a chance to work on it again. I'm in the middle of a home improvement project as well.

Any Luck ?

Not yet. Time is not on my side. I did buy a new starter relay but have not installed it yet.

I do have new flooring throughout the first floor of the my current project.

I'm in the middle of replacing front hubs and bearings on my daughter's Rav4 at the moment. It's always something...

Brr, it's getting cold in the garage.

Got the hub back from the machine shop and reinstalled. I'm beat. It's snowing....

Make a close inspection of those boots.

A leaky boot is the downfall of many CV joints

Make a close inspection of those boots.

A leaky boot is the downfall of many CV joints

I spray my boots down with WD40 at every oil change, just to keep them pliable. Seems to work.

Just a simple thought , Did you test the battery itself - all I can do is offer my experience . I had on my 41 buick a shorted 6 volt battery that made the generator charge funny and have more heat than normal , then one day just nothing . went to slow charge (1.5 amp style) got a spark from hooking charger up . Slow charged anyways then 2 hours later checked on battery no change ... Then got the battery acid tester checked all three ports to the battery only one was good - the negative side and center were dead . I replaced the battery with a new one then noticed the generator working properly and efficient too . Good luck and I agree with the patients thing too

I will substitute a different 12V battery next time I have a chance to work on the car. Only 1.5 weeks until my surgery, plus I've got a "new to me" car coming over. My Mom's 1992 Acura integra Hatchback with under 40,000 miles. It will need some basic attentions. All fluids changed, new tires, etc from sitting the most part of the last 3 years. I'm hoping for no fuel issues. I've kept it topped off with fresh gas and stabil.

The boots on the '96 rav are shot. This one is torn wide open on the big end, the other is cut on the small end. At about $20 a boot, it doesn't make any sense to replace them since I have to pull the axle to do it. (I've never done that). The bearing was replaced as a safety issue. I'll keep an eye out on the u-joint and be prepared next time with the new axles. They are only about $45, so it doesn't make sense to repair them, just swap them out.

The Rav4 is my 16 year old daughter's car, so 90% of it's driving is 2 miles each way to school and 4 miles to her boyfriends house. Plus, it burns (valves) and leaks (timing cover) a quart of oil a week......so there' is limited money I'm willing to invest to fix it. It needs about $4000 worth of work to make it a $2000 car. (complete exhause, shocks, struts, axles, engine rebuild). On the plus side, it's a really cute 2 door Rav4, so I'll do my best to keep it running safely for now.

… doing what you can, when you can. Keep up the pace Brian this overall post is very informative. BTW: Just for general informational purposes and for this time of season now, Stabile only safe guards against real gas from turning into shellack. But gasohol(methanol) is not real gas and as an alcohol based compound, attracts water and also acts as an excellent organic solvent. The water then corrodes all internal metal components and dissolves all petroleum based and natural rubber based components all the while acting as an excellent enabler of electrolytic convert ion action acting upon such components of copper and brass ( think fuel tank sending units and glass fuel filter ). It's also most likely hard on your hands :')

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention they make or made at one time, double half boots that nylon tie and clip together so you do not need to pull the complete transaxle and cv joint out. Just remove your boot and install the two halves together as per directions. It is the open boot that allows the environment and water into the joint and rolling balls that make up the joint system that causes the joint to fail in the first place.

Hi,

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention they make or made at one time, double half boots that nylon tie and clip together so you do not need to pull the complete transaxle and cv joint out. Just remove your boot and install the two halves together as per directions. It is the open boot that allows the environment and water into the joint and rolling balls that make up the joint system that causes the joint to fail in the first place.

Split CV joint boots are readily available. Google "dorman cv joint boots" and you'll get a zillion hits.

--Tom

Fixed!!!

I did all the checking and rechecking that everyone had suggested and Brian had done...found no power at the ignition switch. I thought that maybe there was a big splice inside the wire harness that was bad. I then pulled the headlight switch harness and checked power there. YES I had power at the red wire. WHY are the headlights not working if I have power at the switch? I checked the order of the wires going to the switch in the 58 chassis manual, and AHA. The red wire was installed in the wrong slot. Since this car does not have a power antenna, there is no wire going to the switch in that port. I put the wire where the chassis said it belonged, and voila! We have a running car again.

Now, there are several other wiring issues at hand. The trunk light was not working, and the connection was broken at the socket. I soldered a new wire on, and it's good. Two problems down, 100 left

Hooray !!!

Adam to the rescue !!

The ignition switch power comes from the headlight switch?