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1933 flathead 6 won't start


Guest towd

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Hi guys,

I've tried to get this old girl going to no avail. I now have all the valves free and cleaned everything up. I've got a pretty good spark but it won't start. I have also checked the timing etc and believe it to be timed up correctly. I have been dumping a little sip of gas down the carb - but it won't start?

I checked compression in all 6 cylinders and all of them seem to be around 60-65 lbs. the reading will stay steady for a long time, so I don't think it's leaking compression.

Any ideas? Should I have lapped all the valves in before putting this back together?

thanks

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Guest 33DOdodge

Can you get any spark at the plugs ? Just hook one plug up outside the head but touching it and see if it sparks as you crank it. Nice find ..... All these old ones it's gas and spark at the about the right time and it'll light.....or at least do something. Make sure you have oil just in case it does start, water is not so important since you won't run it long. Points are probably corroded too.

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I have spark at every plug. If I ground the wire against the head - I hear a pretty good snap , so I'm assuming I have good spark - although I have not changed any ignition components. My lowest cylinder is around 58 pounds of compression with the rest at 60 to 65 lbs. is that enough for this to fire??

I've got about 30 psi of oil pressure showing on the gauge when I crank it with starter .

Fuel pump is not working so just dumping a little down carb. Am I correct that #1 cylinder is closest to radiator?????

thanks for the replies

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If you've determined that you have a "pretty good spark" by removing the spark plug and laying it on the cylinder head and then cranking the engine over, this may not translate to a pretty good spark when the plug is installed in the engine. Cylinder compression pressure will cause a higher resistance between the spark plug electrodes, enough to snuff out your spark. Try for an even better spark by either replacing the spark plugs or cleaning and re-gapping to a tighter spec. Also verify the integrity of your spark plug cables and condenser. Let us know what you find. Good Luck!

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I have spark at every plug. If I ground the wire against the head - I hear a pretty good snap , so I'm assuming I have good spark - although I have not changed any ignition components. My lowest cylinder is around 58 pounds of compression with the rest at 60 to 65 lbs. is that enough for this to fire??

I've got about 30 psi of oil pressure showing on the gauge when I crank it with starter .

Fuel pump is not working so just dumping a little down carb. Am I correct that #1 cylinder is closest to radiator?????

thanks for the replies

Yes, number one is the front cylinder.

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You got basically the same engine in your Dodge as I have in my Plymouth. When I first got it the previous owner said it ran but was rough at idle. It did run, and the idle was really bad but I ran mine for a few thousand miles before I checked the compression: 60# compression in three cylinders and 0# in the other three. Hard to start, but it would start and run. So yes, you have enough compression for it to run.

So now it is simply a matter of having a reasonable fuel mixture and a hot enough spark at the right time. Were it me, I'd fix the fuel pump so I wouldn't have to be pouring the wrong amount of fuel down the carburetor. Wrong because I'm sure I'd be either putting too much or too little.

Tune up parts should be available at your local better auto supply store for a reasonable cost so there is no great advantage in trying to get things going with unknown condition points, condenser, etc.

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Recheck the timing. Put a pencil or a straw in the # 1 cylinder spark plug hole and turn the engine over by hand. Watch the pencil/straw as you turn the engine and notice when the pencil/straw reach the highest point rising out of the plug hole. You should hear a "whoosh" from the plug hole at that time - that is the top of the compression stroke for # 1 cylinder. You can also put your thumb over the plug hole while turning the engine. Once the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke your thumb should feel pressure pushing on it. The idea is to get close to TDC. After you have gotten piston one to the top of the compression stroke, trace the # 1 cylinder spark plug wire back to the distributor cap and make a mark on the outside of the distributor housing noting # 1 wire. Now pull the distributor cap and look to see if the rotor blade is lined up with your mark for #1 cylinder. It should be close and it can be adjusted by loosening the distributor and rotating it to line up with the rotor. This should get you going.

Also, check that the spark plug wires are in the proper firing order in the cap - 1-5-3-6-2-4. Not sure (can't remember) if it is clockwise or counterclockwise but you can check that, too, by turning the engine and seeing which direction the rotor turns.

Joe

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Recheck the timing. Put a pencil or a straw in the # 1 cylinder spark plug hole and turn the engine over by hand. Watch the pencil/straw as you turn the engine and notice when the pencil/straw reach the highest point rising out of the plug hole. You should hear a "whoosh" from the plug hole at that time - that is the top of the compression stroke for # 1 cylinder. You can also put your thumb over the plug hole while turning the engine. Once the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke your thumb should feel pressure pushing on it. The idea is to get close to TDC. After you have gotten piston one to the top of the compression stroke, trace the # 1 cylinder spark plug wire back to the distributor cap and make a mark on the outside of the distributor housing noting # 1 wire. Now pull the distributor cap and look to see if the rotor blade is lined up with your mark for #1 cylinder. It should be close and it can be adjusted by loosening the distributor and rotating it to line up with the rotor. This should get you going.

Also, check that the spark plug wires are in the proper firing order in the cap - 1-5-3-6-2-4. Not sure (can't remember) if it is clockwise or counterclockwise but you can check that, too, by turning the engine and seeing which direction the rotor turns.

Joe

On Chrysler product L-6 engines of that and later era, the spark plug hole is not directly over the piston so it is not a good spot for inserting a straw, etc. to check for piston location. But there is a threaded plug over the #6 piston intended to be used to check valve timing. Since the #1 and #6 pistons travel on the same throw you can use that to determine top dead center: Just remove the plug and put a long stiff piece of wire (or straw) in the hole and see where the highest point occurs on the piston travel.

On that engine the distributor rotor turns clockwise when looking down on it from above. If the last person to install the oil pump indexed it correctly, the rotor should be pointing at about the 7 o'clock position for firing #1.

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The plot thickens ..... I took the oil pump out because I could not get oil to show up anywhere- packed it with grease and reinstalled after a little wiggling of motor to line it up. My rotor is still in roughly the 7 o clock position slightly before the # 1 wire at TDC .

How critical is indexing the pump ?

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The plot thickens ..... I took the oil pump out because I could not get oil to show up anywhere- packed it with grease and reinstalled after a little wiggling of motor to line it up. My rotor is still in roughly the 7 o clock position slightly before the # 1 wire at TDC .

How critical is indexing the pump ?

Oh dear, if you have moved the oil pump then it is highly likely you have moved the distributor timing; how are you determining the TDC position of #1, the only positive way is using the indicator rod over #6 as previously mentioned.

When you have positively determined that #1 is at TDC then look to see where the dist. rotor is pointing; as others have said if you have a good spark and fuel you should at least get a kick out of it.

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Ok - I think I threw it out of time when I removed pump?

To get TDC - I have been bringing #1 to the top and checking that both lifters spin freely. I do not see any timing marks on front pulley????

Can I now pop out distributor and align at 7 o'clock with the #1 wire or is it easier to remove pump and try to index that way.

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Ok - I think I threw it out of time when I removed pump?

To get TDC - I have been bringing #1 to the top and checking that both lifters spin freely. I do not see any timing marks on front pulley????

Can I now pop out distributor and align at 7 o'clock with the #1 wire or is it easier to remove pump and try to index that way.

The distributor.

Put a mark on the body wherever #1 is, put the rotor on the distributor shaft, line up the rotor with the mark and slip it in.

If it's driven by a tang that fits a slot in the pump shaft you MIGHT have enough adjustment in the distributor to make any terminal #1 rather than fiddling with the pump.

If it's a helical gear you'll probably need to try twisting it in a couple times before you get it right.

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You have had a lot of very good advice. Can you also get your hands on a reprint of the service manual for your car? That would also give you much insight on many adjustments by the folks that designed and built the car.

As far as packing the oil pump with grease, I don't think I would have done that.

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Ok - I think I threw it out of time when I removed pump?

To get TDC - I have been bringing #1 to the top and checking that both lifters spin freely. I do not see any timing marks on front pulley????

Can I now pop out distributor and align at 7 o'clock with the #1 wire or is it easier to remove pump and try to index that way.

OK it sounds like you have the side plate off to have access to the lifters, if so, then yes when #1 is at TDC then both lifters should be free, however due to the nature of the cam profiles these lifters will be free for quite a number of degrees of crank rotation either side of TDC.

You need a more accurate way of determining TDC to set the ignition timing, the pointer access over the piston of #6 is really the only way you can sure; having said that, going back to the looking at the lifters you could get reasonably close by observing the #6 lifters at the same time as #1.

Because #1 and #6 come to TDC at the same time, (1 on compression 6 on exhaust) observe the #6 lifters at TDC, they will be rocking - that is the exhaust will be closing and the inlet opening; at this point both 1 and 6 will be exactly at TDC give or take a degree or two.

When engaging the distributor drive tang in the oil pump slot, the rotor cap should be pointing at 7 o`clock and the heel of the distributor cam should be just about to open the points, if the oil pump is out a tooth the rotor cap will be quite a way off the 7 o`clock position.

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OK it sounds like you have the side plate off to have access to the lifters, if so, then yes when #1 is at TDC then both lifters should be free, however due to the nature of the cam profiles these lifters will be free for quite a number of degrees of crank rotation either side of TDC.

You need a more accurate way of determining TDC to set the ignition timing, the pointer access over the piston of #6 is really the only way you can sure; having said that, going back to the looking at the lifters you could get reasonably close by observing the #6 lifters at the same time as #1.

Because #1 and #6 come to TDC at the same time, (1 on compression 6 on exhaust) observe the #6 lifters at TDC, they will be rocking - that is the exhaust will be closing and the inlet opening; at this point both 1 and 6 will be exactly at TDC give or take a degree or two.

When engaging the distributor drive tang in the oil pump slot, the rotor cap should be pointing at 7 o`clock and the heel of the distributor cam should be just about to open the points, if the oil pump is out a tooth the rotor cap will be quite a way off the 7 o`clock position.

I will try that and report back. This is a classic case of how a "little knowledge" can sometimes be dangerous. I have never worked on an old flat head before. Who knew the oil pump was connected to the timing???????????? Ha Ha

Thanks for all the help.

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I will try that and report back. This is a classic case of how a "little knowledge" can sometimes be dangerous. I have never worked on an old flat head before. Who knew the oil pump was connected to the timing???????????? Ha Ha

Thanks for all the help.

Well not so surprising, a great many vehicles use the oil pump to drive the distributor, even today. If you think about it, the cam shaft is a logical item to drive both distributor and oil pump, so it makes sense to share the same drive.

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It runs!!!!!!! - I did everything you guys suggested; cranked it over and within two spins of the motor the thing took off like a train! After a few adjustments it now purrs like a kitten.

Should there be a lot of oil showing up in the lifter area? Doesn't seem like much is getting to that area ?

Thanks a bunch for all the solid advice

Edited by towd
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Please tell us what did the trick....... :D

I knocked it out of time when I removed oil pump. Plus, I rebuilt fuel pump and set everything back as discussed and.......BAM - it fired right up.

Oil pressure reads 60 psi on gauge cold. Seems high and not much oil showing up in lifter area. Is this normal?

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Oil pressure reads 60 psi on gauge cold. Seems high and not much oil showing up in lifter area. Is this normal?

"Maybe" to both.

My '32 (which is very similar to your) reads about 40-45 PSI cold. And when I'm doing a valve lifter adjustment with the engine running I have to shield the whole area outside of the valve access ports with newspapers, but there really isn't a whole lot of oil spurting out.

The other thing I wanted to recommend is (if you haven't already) try to obtain an original copy of the owner's manual for your car. There isn't an "official" shop manual dedicated to your car, but the owner's manual will give you tons of details about your car that normally you'd expect from a shop manual. (Like diagrams that show how the oil pump and distributor are both driven by the cam shaft!)

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"Maybe" to both.

My '32 (which is very similar to your) reads about 40-45 PSI cold. And when I'm doing a valve lifter adjustment with the engine running I have to shield the whole area outside of the valve access ports with newspapers, but there really isn't a whole lot of oil spurting out.

The other thing I wanted to recommend is (if you haven't already) try to obtain an original copy of the owner's manual for your car. There isn't an "official" shop manual dedicated to your car, but the owner's manual will give you tons of details about your car that normally you'd expect from a shop manual. (Like diagrams that show how the oil pump and distributor are both driven by the cam shaft!)

good idea on the manual - any idea where I can find one?

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:)

I knocked it out of time when I removed oil pump. Plus, I rebuilt fuel pump and set everything back as discussed and.......BAM - it fired right up.

Oil pressure reads 60 psi on gauge cold. Seems high and not much oil showing up in lifter area. Is this normal?

Well done and congrats for your persistence in getting it running. I second the "get a book to help notion", you might like to consider searching for something a little more detailed beyond the Instruction book that came with the car, books such as Motors Auto Repair manual or Chilton Auto Repair manual are generic all makes publications which cover vehicles from 1920`s to 1950`s, they have a wealth of information on repairs to all aspects for older cars.

As to the oil, well 60 psi at start is not unusual (noting you said earlier you had packed the pump with grease) but it could also indicate the "hardened arteries" syndrome where the lube passages are clogged up, fairly prevalent where an engine has been dormant for a while. In this situation it is tempting to run a thin flushing oil through the engine and clean it out, the downside is that you will disturb a whole bunch of crud and block up the plumbing, I would be inclined to run it for a while with a "standard" oil and cycle through a number of oil changes in quick succession.

If the valve gear (or any part of the engine for that matter) is not getting sufficient lubrication, then things will get noisy with a lot of mechanical clatter, if you hear some dull knocking noises then quit running real quick as this usually means the main crank and big end bearings are running dry, then you have a major problem.

So keep up the good work, ask questions and go buy a book or two, you may just finish up like the rest of us, dirty but wiser.

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