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Hi everybody. I know Hershey's couple weeks behind us but I just now got back home. I had a great time made a couple dollars spent a couple dollars but I got to say hello to a lot of friends to discuss a lot of things. I just want to put my two cents into the Allentown show. I know it's been discussed but I just have to put my opinion in. I believe that the Allentown show is so far away that things can be changed and it should not be written in stone yet. I am in favor of this being a totally judge show it is an East Coast show and it draws quite a few attendance. There are many people that simply cannot either afford the time to travel across half the United States to have their cars judged. They to pay the same dues and work real hard to keep our Buick club alive. I know they work on their cars and some have never had them judged and are looking forward to this opportunity. I do not think that there opportunity should be ignored. I know this is an anniversary year but every year's anniversary year for some car if it was so important anniversary year the show should have been held in Flint this year. With the crowd that is expected I am sure there'll be enough volunteers to staff the judging committee. I think just the members of this form along and put their opinions out there and had their own poll the board might reconsider this. I for one will be there to judge and give all my time to it everyday need. I don't say this in anger but in my case no judge in and I won't take the time to come up there. So again I ask for the president on down the whole board to reconsider this and think of all the people that would love to have their cars judged. have a great Buick day

BUKE (Frank)

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Guest my3buicks

Frank, from what I have seen on the forum I don't think that cause will get much support here. I think it should be written in the Bylaws that every national meet should be judged, but of course that's one opinion. I could deal with the 100th Buick Celebration, but the 50th annv of the BCA, big deal. it is honestly amazing though when you really think on it.

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Guest 4 bufords
Frank, from what I have seen on the forum I don't think that cause will get much support here. I think it should be written in the Bylaws that every national meet should be judged, but of course that's one opinion. I could deal with the 100th Buick Celebration, but the 50th annv of the BCA, big deal. it is honestly amazing though when you really think on it.

just want to say something about no judging in Allentown,been busting my butt for two months getting my 57 super ready for the Allentown meet.might just scrap the idea of getting it judged and stay home,4 bufords from ct

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I am trying to understand why the 2015 BCA non-judged meet in Allentown PA is such a concern for eastern area BCA members.

I have been told that the AACA judging was the basis for the BCA judging manual. Hershey PA is only 75 miles from Allentown. So if you insist on having your car judged, you could enter it for judging at the AACA meet in Hershey after attending the BCA meet in Allentown. This would also allow you to have it previewed by BCA members (judges) in Allentown and still have time for final preparations before the Fall Hershey meet.

You could do that but with the realization that AACA judging, while thorough and fair is not really marque specific in most cases. Buicks not being one of them. So if you are a Buick freak being judged by other Buick freaks will be most meaningful. Just sayin.............Bob

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the 2 judging methods are very different. I seen cars with aaca senior awards get destroyed at single make judging

I am trying to understand why the 2015 BCA non-judged meet in Allentown PA is such a concern for eastern area BCA members.

I have been told that the AACA judging was the basis for the BCA judging manual. Hershey PA is only 75 miles from Allentown. So if you insist on having your car judged, you could enter it for judging at the AACA meet in Hershey after attending the BCA meet in Allentown. This would also allow you to have it previewed by BCA members (judges) in Allentown and still have time for final preparations before the Fall Hershey meet.

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IF the BCA 400 Point Judging system might be modeled after the AACA's judging system, it might well be that its "execution" might be different, especially in areas where the BCA is much more specific (i.e., previous discussions on "halogen headlights and radial tires") than a multi-marque club might be. This would also tend to indicate that Buicks would be judged to "a higher standard" at a BCA National Meet than at a similar AACA (or other such group) national meet, with all due respect.

Regarding Brass Era cars, it might well be that such vehicles might be more appreciated in AACA circles, but "too antique" for many BCA members (who might tend to gravitate toward '30s-'60s model year Buicks)? Just a thought . . .

One thing intrigues me about this thread. Although many discovered the Allentown, PA Bulgari Estate meet would be non-judged by happen-stance, then wondered "Why?" it had to be that way, it seems the "facts" of how it all came about being non-judged (too many cars to judge, special BCA Anniversary meet, Mr. Bulgari's desires in offering his venue for the meet, etc.) still strike me as being a little fuzzy. What might I have missed in all of this?

Of course, if Mr. Bulgari requested the meet be "a display to showcase Buicks" and "non-judged", so be it.

NO intent to cause trouble, just some curious thoughts . . .

NTX5467

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I don't subscribe to the "too big to judge" way of thinking. Having attended BCA national meets since 1984, and participated as a judge since 1989, my observation is that you always get a certain percentage of people at the meet who volunteer to be judges. I don't know what that percentage is, but there always seems to be enough judges to get by, whether the meet has 97 cars being judged or 497 being judged.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

Meet Head Judge: 1998 (Danvers, Mass.); 2010 (Ames, Iowa); 2011 (Danvers, Mass.)

Edited by Pete Phillips (see edit history)
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Guest my3buicks
the 2 judging methods are very different. I seen cars with aaca senior awards get destroyed at single make judging

And Visa Versa without question Ted

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Guest my3buicks
I am trying to understand why the 2015 BCA non-judged meet in Allentown PA is such a concern for eastern area BCA members.

I have been told that the AACA judging was the basis for the BCA judging manual. Hershey PA is only 75 miles from Allentown. So if you insist on having your car judged, you could enter it for judging at the AACA meet in Hershey after attending the BCA meet in Allentown. This would also allow you to have it previewed by BCA members (judges) in Allentown and still have time for final preparations before the Fall Hershey meet.

Mark, think of horse racing and the Triple Crown, well to people that enjoy the judging and showing aspect of the hobby kind of think of it in the same manor, if a horse wins the Triple Crown it is more valuable, more sellable, etc. Same with cars, if a car wins the Triple Crown AACA Jr, AACA SR, and we will stay with Buicks and go Gold Senior then the car has a good pedigree that raises it's value, without question helps with raising the value with insurance companies, and of course the pride in ownership.

So the Allentown meet will deny members that option.

For instance, next summer I plan on taking my 6K mile Reatta to the AACA Spring nat, the BCA nat, and the AACA Fall meet in Hershey, I am hoping for that triple crown, but if it was the next summer, the BCA tells me to screw you.

The BCA is many things to many different types of members, and needs to be consistently fair to every member. So the Allentown year the BCA says, hey, all you members that like the judging aspect, to bad we are just going to play with the group that likes to play in the sandbox and not build castles. How about the next year we have a meet where we just get on buses and go shopping and on tours, and then the next year we have a meet with only judging. All cars in attendance have to be judged by the 400 point system and there will be no tours, no display, no driven class etc etc.

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Guest my3buicks
of this?

Of course, if Mr. Bulgari requested the meet be "a display to showcase Buicks" and "non-judged", so be it.

NTX5467

We can hope that the BCA didn't kneel to one members wishes no matter what the offer. I made a comment a couple weeks ago that met with the wrath of the moderator, but if the above is true, that statement was one hundred percent true. Of course we will never know the truth on that one.

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No judging? I was planning to bring my convertible and park with it's peers, fully expecting a 50 point deduction for the roof being whacked off. I didn't want to be squeezed in between a couple of hearses or ambulances. That's a bright side!

Bernie

017.jpg

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I am trying to understand why the 2015 BCA non-judged meet in Allentown PA is such a concern for eastern area BCA members.

I have been told that the AACA judging was the basis for the BCA judging manual. Hershey PA is only 75 miles from Allentown. So if you insist on having your car judged, you could enter it for judging at the AACA meet in Hershey after attending the BCA meet in Allentown. This would also allow you to have it previewed by BCA members (judges) in Allentown and still have time for final preparations before the Fall Hershey meet.

BCA Nat meets should at least have the option of judged classes. I missed the 100 anny so I have no comment. Was in Batavia 2005 for my 1st BCA Nat.. I missed Charlotte due to illness. The Nats move all around and getting to one is a chore that I accept to have a car judged and to see many new and old friends. I for one have been working on 2 cars for the event 1 that won a gold in o5 and another undergoing a body off resto as I write this. AACA is one thing and showing and being judged by BCA and your peers in the club is another and important to me at least. If there is no judging it would probably be better to show up with my 2010 Enclave and be done with it. P.S. There are AACA events all over the country and I am sure if a BCA Nat was held elsewhere without judging you would hear just as many complaints from those areas. This post is probably useless. What a way to run a club folks. P.S. This is also the first I have heard of this being a non judged event. Was this written about in the Bugle? I must have missed it which seems unlikely. Must be getting old! P.S.S. All my cars even the BCA winner and the one getting the resto are driven and raced and taken on tours etc. Driving the cars always takes priority here but, having them judged is icing on the cake that should always be available.

Edited by philip roitman (see edit history)
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Guest my3buicks

Mark, you understood my analogy and your comeback was well, I can't say it here or I will get in trouble again.

There are those of us that can enjoy more than one aspect, I show my cars, I enjoy the judging, I am OCD and thrive in making my cars as good as they can be, on the other hand I drive and enjoy my cars, I have driven to countless nationals, regionals, local shows, cruises and just for fun. I don't doubt I drive mine more every year than you could hope to, but I still show them and love that aspect and do very well at it.

Driving around on tours and in groups has no interest to me, again, that is another branch of the hobby and there is nothing wrong with it and it is popular and without doubt a great time, but I prefer to do my touring and vacationing on my own and on my own schedule.

But how about next year we say NO TOURS after the national meet.

An exaggeration for sure, but how about 2017 there will be no brass era Buicks allowed?? Get it? We are excluding a group of members.

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I am trying to understand why the 2015 BCA non-judged meet in Allentown PA is such a concern for eastern area BCA members.

I have been told that the AACA judging was the basis for the BCA judging manual. Hershey PA is only 75 miles from Allentown. So if you insist on having your car judged, you could enter it for judging at the AACA meet in Hershey after attending the BCA meet in Allentown. This would also allow you to have it previewed by BCA members (judges) in Allentown and still have time for final preparations before the Fall Hershey meet. mark if the Buick member wanted to go to Hershey and it is simply just a 70 mile trip down the road he would. But you know to have you car judged at the BCA meet is important to the members. Just think if the Portland meet did not have their cards judge that West Coast meet wouldn't have been such a success. The bottom line is people work hard at restoring the cars as you did and want them judged. I truly believe that Allentown should have judging I certainly hope the committee is not bowing down to one person. What makes our club is the members and members pay their dues. I for one look for my bugle every month and look forward to going to Buick meets and especially look forward going to the nationals. I work hard to have my 1940 Buick ready for each year. Though I never put in the 400s judge system I enjoy driving their and volunteered to judge at every meeting I've been to. I have yet to been to meet with the judging committee not having enough volunteers. So comparing Hershey with the BCA meet is like comparing apples and oranges.

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Guest my3buicks

Very constructive Mark, I will be sure to put your thoughts on thin paper and use them well,

Also, you speak of participating in another clubs tours, that's all well and good - but those of us that want judging at all BCA National meets can't go to another venue/club and get a BCA Senior, Gold, Silver, Bronze. A lot of people put countless hours, dollars and sweat and tears into making there cars great and to be denied the opportunity for little more than a whim is wrong.

You speak of the BCA's judging history, being a rather new member in the grand scheme of things I doubt you have been to a lot of Nationals and Regionals, etc over the years. Far less than the more seasoned BCA veterans. While far from an old member, other than the !00th Celebration (and there were many that thought that one should have been judged) there has been judging for 34 out of my 35 years in the club and I know judging took place for quite a few years prior to my 35 year span.

You see those two National Awards on the front of this car? Well, some member that has worked hard on their cars restoration is going to be denied that opportunity in Allentown.

post-30591-143142796129_thumb.jpg

Edited by my3buicks (see edit history)
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Not to kick the beehive, but if people in the northeast are putting countless dollars into restorations, why can't they spend a bit more to go further afield to attend another National?

Granted, I agree that this old have been better laid out and communicated in the first place, but since I can't change the past all we can do is hope a lesson was learned and this won't be quite so contentious in the future. I'm not sure repeatedly voicing the same argument on the (public, not a private BCA member only) forum will have any positive effect. Opinions could be voiced directly to the BoD and National Meet Committee with a view to determine whether or not this decision could possibly be overturned. I'm thinking that without constructive action, all that is happening here is beating the poor dead horse's bones to dust.

For us, the shortest drive to a National meet was about 500 miles...since it was so close, we drove two cars down.

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"Not to kick the beehive, but if people in the northeast are putting countless dollars into restorations, why can't they spend a bit more to go further afield to attend another National?"

Not everyone can take the extra vacation time or be away from their business the extra time it takes to drive a car halfway across the country, attend a meet far away, and then drive back home. I had a conversation with a long-time member in Portland at the meet there in July, who said the Seattle and Portland meets were the only BCA national meets he could ever attend, because he cannot be away from his business or his workplace for that long a time. It's not just a question of dollars.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

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Derek does make a good point though. There are enough folks here who want judging in 2016. There are not enough folk on this board to carry that alone. One way to accomplish that is to gather signatures on a petition requesting the same, and present it to the BOD. I'm not sure how to effectively accomplish that nationwide. Anyone have any other ideas?

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Just as a point of reference, about twenty five years ago a lack of judges was becoming a critical issue in another car club. This particular club conducts what is perhaps the most thorough and detail oriented judging in the car hobby. The solution was simple and straight forward - if you wanted to have your car judged, you had to serve as a judge. Obviously you can't judge the same category that your car is entered into and there was some concern about the depth and breadth of judging knowledge. This approach along with a very comprehensive series of judging manuals and highly visible judging recognition program has produced a large and talented generation of judges that can now cover events all over the country. The point is that if you are concerned and committed to the BCA judging process enough to demand that your car gets judged at a national event, be prepared to offer your services in support of your fellow car owners having their cars judged as well. The BOD can make it a requirement but they have to have support from all the members and attendees to make it happen. Just some food for thought......................

Edited by Arland (see edit history)
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Gentleman,

The 2016 Celebration (notice I did not say National Meet) is at the invitation of Mr Bulgari at his location. He invited the Buick club to bring 1,000 cars to Allentown to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the founding of the BCA.

It will be a special celebration for us all and quite a nice event with surprises for all.

More information is coming as the plans are firmed up but it will be a celebration you won't soon forget.

The 2003 meet was celebration of Buick and while some were disappointed there was no judging, you can't complain about the party that was put on.

This celebration promises to be of similar stature.

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Gentleman,

The 2016 Celebration (notice I did not say National Meet) is at the invitation of Mr Bulgari at his location. He invited the Buick club to bring 1,000 cars to Allentown to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the founding of the BCA.

It will be a special celebration for us all and quite a nice event with surprises for all.

More information is coming as the plans are firmed up but it will be a celebration you won't soon forget.

The 2003 meet was celebration of Buick and while some were disappointed there was no judging, you can't complain about the party that was put on.

This celebration promises to be of similar stature.

LIKE!. Dandy Dave!

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From observing how some of the facets of this discussion have progressed, it appears that "beta amyloid plaque" (otherwise possibly termed "battery terminal corrosion" of brain neuron pathway receptors) might be at play here? "Signals" don't seem to be getting through . . . for one reason or another, in either direction . . . nor do they seem to arrive "unscrambled". Hopefully, if everybody eats their fair share of sauerkraut (or other "fermented food"), the "corrosion" might diminish and effective, accurate communications be restored? Only thing is that "how" these communications might be processed might depend upon other brain conditions/functions, which CAN be variable.

With all due respect,

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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Bill. Thank you for the update I have talked to Nancy about it and and she said about what you just said the same thing. Being that in mind maybe we can promise the East Coast another national long before 2001. I for one think that would be a fair exchange and maybe put the subject the bed.

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