antique cars appreciating in value

PM sent Rusty-this car screams bargain!

Reply sent.

Interesting thread but it all goes back to buying what interests you. Markets change with the times, but basing your choices on that, to me, is not the best approach. I like the comment Restorer32 always makes in this area, about price vs. value. A couple years ago we sold a '68 Cutlass convertible, did nothing to that car but replace the top and make a nice 25% profit after a couple seasons, IMO overvalued due to strong interest in anything resembling a musclecar. The car was ok, but not great. We were pleasently surprised, will the trend continue on that car, tough to say but IMHO a lot of these 60s cars have to be near the top end. 15 years ago commenting that '55-'57 Tbird prices will be dropping would have been considered ridiculas, but that is where I think many of these cars are today. Still, if you want a '67 Chevelle you should buy that vs. say, a '74 Porsche 911 which is another "hot car" right now price wise - if you have no passion for the Porsche.

The R107 discussion is interesting as we have one as well. I was surprised at the large number of these cars at Hershey as well - Matt counted more but I priced the ones I saw and they ranged from 43,800 to $20,000, or the market for all but the best R107s now. I will agree with the concensus these will appreciate very slowly, but if one is interested in these cars there are big differences underneath the skin that impacts desirability, with the early cast block 350/450 SL models being desirable, along with the 560 SL (essentially a totally different car underneath). Mid production 450 SLs had issues, and the low HP/single timing chaing 380 SLs had issues - all of which can be addressed but the $$ that takes gets you a more desirable example, so unless you find a super clean mid-production car, stick with one of the others. The 6 cyl variants have a following, as do the real AMG cars, but I have not seem market rewarding relative rarity/interest on the 6 cyl cars - and the painted trim AMG cars are a matter of taste. Like any other car, you need to do your homework.

I will say that while we do not expect great appreciation with ours, we sorted it for less than what the reputation leads one to believe, and put about 3,500 miles per season on it. Gets a lot of compliments and wife and kid love it, Rusty, go for it, PM me if I can help in any way if you do get it. 3 years in I know a bit about them now - investment, no, one of the better usable collector cars we have owned, absolutely.

I do think the earlier W113s hold the values in the recent run up, as the earlier 190 SLs are commanding astromonical dollars - admittedly to me, they are overvalued and not nearly as much car for the money as the W113 Pagoda cars. The remaining upside is in the early 230 SL cars, which, like a small block mid year corvette (I would prefer the Pagoda to the Vette, myself, but Mercer makes a good point on these cars upside) will be pulled up by the bigger engine cars faster than the 250 & 280 Sls will appreciate. I definately would like to add a Pagoda to the mix at some point.

Matt, hang in there on the SLs you have in stock, I am aware of a 20K mile 560 SL that just sold for $50K here in CT, there is a market for the real low mile examples. I think you may want to think about venue and where you advertise these, musclecar and prewar oriented outlets are not going to get you to your buyers for those two cars.

I'm an odd duck when it comes to those 2 seat Mercedes models. I freakin hate em! Makes me think poser dope dealer or foreign lounge lizard (!), but apparently that's just me. They sure made a bunch of em. Then again, 2 $125K window stickered Mercedes models, an 03 and 04, just went to 20% of their original price in Chicago last weekend. One took it, one didn't. I know the discussion is on the older models and not those, but does it add or take away from the versions you guys are speaking of? I also never thought I'd see the day when 190SLs would top 6 figures at auction, but that's happening too. I recall being able to buy a nice clean one for about $25K, and not much more for a fully restored version. Think 05-6-7 value of those vs today. Didn't see that one coming at all. You can't go wrong buying what you like. Desire and enthusiasm can be contagious when you're selling. Your desire can sometimes infect a prospective buyer the same way and "voila!", sold. I've always felt that in general terms you can always do as good as the rate of inflation and significant items, cars, art, and countless other collector bits, prove this out. Just avoid the occasional "rush", don't speculate too much, use the stuff you buy often, and if it's about the dollars then take the profit regardless of the percentage. I'd rather sell 20 cars for a $1000 profit than try to make $20K on just one, but I love the action, the dance, the game. I don't do it all the time either. No desire for that to become stale or pay my bills. It's the "juice" for me, but I can't stress enough that that's me, not everyone.

Hmm, the impact of prices on the newer models is a tough call. The latest change can only help though, as the R107 models are the last ones (body design done in the late 60s) with a "vintage" look, a fair amount of brightwork, not too much plastic, etc. that the subsequent R129 and later SLs did not have. They get more removed from the newer cars with each major change, which is roughly twice the time between changes as MB does with it's regular models. At the end of the day there are just too darn many of them out there for a run up like the Pagodas, although clean examples are finding a strong market in Germany just like the Pagodas, there is an exporter in FL buying these cars regularly for resale in Germany and other countries as they are not nearly as plentiful overseas.

So these two first generation Riviera owners find themselves at the Pearly Gates. Both had owned their cars for about 50 years. One sat pristine and polished in a garage that looked like a shrine and the car was pampered and cherished. It smelled lightly in incense. The other was a little ragged on the edges, piping on the seats worn, carpets rumpled with a few pine needles and leaves stuck in the weave.

Just inside the gate was Bill Mitchell. Both guys recognized him. The show winner walked over singing praises and telling how delicately his car had been cherished. Bill smiled and nodded. The other guy said "Hey, Mr. Mitchell, do you think it would have been too much to add about an inch and a half of elbow room in that car?" "And when you took the chrome surround off the quarter windows couldn't you put something there to keep the weatherstrip trim from falling into the quarter panel?" "And who had the idea of making a pot metal window lift arm?"

Well, Bill and the second guy walked off talking, while Bill kept shrugging his shoulders and holding his palms out in a helpless gesture. Sometimes they both laughed.

The other guy stood alone for a while, then looked for familiar names in a big book. The last thing he heard was Bill saying "It's only two little pieces of die cast on the sail panel, Harley is the guy who liked that stuff. It was just a carry over."

Buy 'em, use 'em, enjoy 'em.

Bernie

Highlander I recall visiting the Mercedes dealer in Toronto in 1972. My father was picking up a 220D sedan. The salesman tried very hard to sell me a 190SL convertible for $5000. He said he could give me a discount as the car had been on the lot for a couple of months. I didn't bite, at that time you could buy a 300 roadster for less than $10,000.

I suspect that in 10 or 20 years, the guys who are sneering at the 70s models will be wishing they bought one (or several) when they were cheap, and there were plenty of good ones to pick from.

At some point in time the supply will just dry up and when they are gone they are gone. Same as Porsche 356s that seemed to be in endless supply once upon a time.

I never pay attention to what I think the investment value of a particular car might be. It is impossible to forecast in any event. For years my dad and I have pondered the relative cheapness of the 39-42 Packard Darrin. Never understood the market for those. Why is the 851 Speedster a lock to bring 400k to 600k when the equal 812 SC Conv Coupe will bring 50% of that? There is definitely a trend towards the sporty but I guess you could say that trend has always existed.

It is best to pray you have good enough taste that some other fool will buy your car when you are done enjoying it.

Highlander I recall visiting the Mercedes dealer in Toronto in 1972. My father was picking up a 220D sedan. The salesman tried very hard to sell me a 190SL convertible for $5000. He said he could give me a discount as the car had been on the lot for a couple of months. I didn't bite, at that time you could buy a 300 roadster for less than $10,000.

.

LOL Rusty........when I was going to tech school in Milwaukee, WI, in 1970 my roomy and I decided to go the Mercedes dealer just for kicks to see how the other 2% travels.

I'll never forget the "not very old" couple in the showroom who where there to take delivery on his dream car......his words too......a 1970 280 SL Convertible as I recall.

LORD that thing was byooteefull........ ......RED too........guess he wasn't going to blend in with his dream car.......

All this palaver about "don't buy a Mercedes convertible, they go down in value" rings a bell. I heard exactly the same thing about real estate in 1992 and stocks in 2009.

Agree with A.J.'s comments about buying what you like. I would liken the Darrin/Auburn comparison to '61 - '63 Lincoln convts - why are certain Chevelles a few years newer worth twice these cars? And - will that bear out in years to come? sometimes values make no sense which just means they are not a reflection of your particular view on a given car. Other than "try not to do something really obvious as a bad move" the only other thing I would add is different cars are suited to different things.

A good friend of mine recently pointed out that regular (by that I mean occasional) use of his #1 grade showcar (a true investment vehicle) would degrade it - he enjoys the occasional concours with that car, which is probably ideal for it. We drive our SL a lot, and were at a cars & cofee yesterday morning, guy is all over our car, unfortunately I was in a conversation I could not break away from but did notice him leaving - in a beautiful '30 - '31 RR Phantom roadster, interesting he was interested in the SL.

Rusty, contrary to popular belief the R107s lend themselves well to handling the mechanical work yourself. A few parts are ridiculas in terms of price, and a couple jobs I could have done I elected to have done, but these are not the electrical puzzle many new cars are. That said, they remain cheap enough to buy the best unless you are a real hands on guy. Good luck with Mr. Mercer, if you guys do a deal, hope it works out for both of you!

Steve I bought my first Mercedes in 1972, a 1962 220SE sedan, and have owned nearly a dozen of them. I get parts from Autohaus in Arizona, OEM quality for 1/4 what the local dealer charges. I do my own work, or have them worked on by the local garage. They are not hard to work on, at least the older models I am familiar with. For one thing they are made to be fixed, and you have something to work with. Unlike cheaper makes that are hard to work on, and where everything crumbles when you take it apart and can't be fixed.

I would hate to replace the chrome, leather, or do a body and paint, but if you buy a good one and take care of it you won't have to.

This conversation got me interested in Mercedes again and I am thinking of buying one locally, a sedan from the late 90s - early 2000s for a daily driver.

The only reason I am not in the market for an SL is that I already have a 74 Porsche 911 Targa and don't need another 70s German convertible.

This conversation got me interested in Mercedes again and I am thinking of buying one locally, a sedan from the late 90s - early 2000s for a daily driver.

Do yourself a very satisfying favor and seriously consider a 2001-3 S500 ( or S430 ). I currently own 5 MBs , 1999-2007. Also 11 Cadillacs . I am only 70 years old , and have far less car expertise than many , if not most of you . However , I have owned and do own , enough cars to recognize a truely GREAT one . My '01 S500 is exactly that . With diligence and a bit of luck , you can get a very fine one for just a little over a dime on the original dollar . Mine came with 70k mi , so obviously one with 1/2 the mileage or less will command a justifiable premium . Mine is MB maintained , paper service records up to about 100 miles prior to my purchase . This one I did not take to MB for an in depth " safety inspection ". I lucked out , the car was and is perfect. Any complex modern 'Benz should be checked out by a COMPETENT MB dealer , or a VERY EXPERIENCED independent who has vast knowledge of the particular car you are considering. If anyone wants to know why '01-3 are the desirable cars in this era , I can expand . As long as I am here , let me put in a plug for another GREAT 'Benz. The 2nd series V12 R129

Well , the demon of the black hole has swallowed up the rest of my posting. Auto save does not save everything for me . I hate having my time and verbiage so disrespected. At any rate , time is up for now . Perhaps to be continued at some time. Anyway , very best of luck in the hunt for a daily driver. I would be honored to be of further assistance as to why these particular years cars are so good. - Carl

A wise man realizes that we all have our limitsand expertise. Many times when a person attempts something beyond their expertise it ends up costing more.

I remember seeing a sign in a repair shop that said " our fix it rate is doubled if you attempted a fix and failed " !

Wayne

That's where I'm at.

Minor stuff, I'm OK.

Anything major, or safety related (brakes), I rely on a professional.

The shop I use has a sign

'No Outside Parts.

We supply all parts necessary."

Thankfully, they have told me they'll happily work on my Roadmaster. If, I supply the parts. It's a good deal.

Some good advice on this thread. I agree, buy the best you can afford, even if that means taking out an equity loan and making payments VS buying a basket case and restoring. Believe me you can make some very large payments and still it will be a drop in the bucket compared to body shop bills, rechroming, interior kits, wasted hours chasing bad leads for parts, busted knuckles, and sometimes giving up due to the overwhelming darkness of the tunnel ahead only to lose big time.

I've been messing with cars since I was 14, turning 60 in the spring and I'm surprised by the amount of people who think as old cars as an investment. Maybe a depreciating investment or write off, but if you don't love old cars go buy a painting or antique clock.