Questions from an aspiring car restorer.

First off, my knowledge in auto repairs/restoration is extremely limited.

My plan is to purchase an older 'beat up' 1968-1970 Dodge Charger, learn how to work on/restore it and ultimately accomplish two of my dreams- acquiring the car of my dreams (classic Charger) and becoming better skilled at auto mechanics/restoration.

Now, given my limited knowledge on restoring a car (although my brother works on cars and will help me along as much as he can), what kind of classic Dodge Charger should I be looking to purchase? How difficult is it to fix rust? Should I save up more money and buy a car that has little to no rust and then just work on the engine and such or should I buy a 'cheaper' rusted clunker and start from the very bottom?

If you were in my position what would be the best path to take?

Wendal

First off, my knowledge in auto repairs/restoration is extremely limited.

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Should I save up more money and buy a car that has little to no rust and then just work on the engine and such...

With rust you only can see 10% 15% 20% of it. The rest is hidden. Rust repair skills are very different to mechanical skills.

Edit: read this thread

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/advice-possible-1950-roamaster-convertible-purchase-379686.html

Emblazon these words on your heart in words of fire...If given the choice between a rusted hulk with perfect mechanicals, a like new interior and excellent chrome and a car with a frozen engine, no interior and bad chrome but no or little rust ALWAYS go for the rust free version. Trust me on this. We do a LOT of rust repair and panel fabrication. It is time consuming and requires skills that are difficult to learn and tools that are expensive to buy.

Emblazon these words on your heart in words of fire...If given the choice between a rusted hulk with perfect mechanicals, a like new interior and excellent chrome and a car with a frozen engine, no interior and bad chrome but no or little rust ALWAYS go for the rust free version. Trust me on this. We do a LOT of rust repair and panel fabrication. It is time consuming and requires skills that are difficult to learn and tools that are expensive to buy.

I agree with Restorer32 100 % ! Rust repair is not a job for an amateur ! I also say try to buy one that you can drive and enjoy for awhile before you start the restoration process. Also emblazon these words somewhere. Restoration is a very expensive business !

Wayne

In restoring a car, there are three different kinds of skill required.

Metal working, Mechanics and paint and finish work.

I am a metal worker. I think nothing of fabricating and replacing the whole lower 6" of a rusted out car. Its what I enjoy and I have all the tools that are required.

I don't particularly enjoy mechanical work like rebuilding an engine or finish body work and painting although I am capable of it. I find it non challenging and boring. Different strokes for different folks!

In your position, I would recommend buying a driving car and work on it in small jobs in different phases while still driving it. It is very quick to lose interest in a first time long term project. When you have found your calling, buy a project car that will challenge you in the area of your interest.

May I suggest you start with something simpler and cheaper, like a slant six Dart, Valiant or Barracuda? There are several good reasons for this.

1) the buy in is cheaper

2) therefore, you can afford a better car for the same money

3) the car is simpler, making repairs simpler

4) parts are cheaper and easier to get

5) if you mess up, and you will, it doesn't hurt so bad.

To put it another way, don't overmatch yourself. You wouldn't step into the ring with the world champion boxer for your first bout and you should start off easy in old cars too.

Will also say, buy the best most complete car you can, that needs the least work. It will still need work, but will not overwhelm you. It goes easiest if you have a running car and can work on one system at a time without completely tearing everything apart.

You will also find that you gravitate to either body repair or mechanical repair, most people prefer mechanical repairs.

Hardly anybody goes into upholstery although it is cleaner and easier than either mechanical or body work, and is more expensive to get done.

How much money do you have? What kind of shop? What tools? Any experience or training?

Agreed rust repair is not as "easy" as mechanical. Easy is not the right word, but does involve more "stuff," as in, a place to sand blast for starters. Also agree the rust you can see is a small fraction of the overall rust once the car is media blasted/cleaned/etc.

That said, we have repaired/replaced all of the rusty areas/panels on my car with 12 $13 bags of sandblasting media, an $80 sand blaster, a $400 air compressor, a 4x8 sheet of metal, $350 used MIG welder (~$150 in gas and ~$40 in wire), bench grinder, a few pairs of vise-grips, vise, 2 hammers, cardboard scraps (for templates), a Sharpie, a $10 air cutoff wheel (with about 100 wheels lol), an electric drill (with various steel brush attachments), and an electric hand grinder. Of course driving the car is not in the near future, so we can take all the time we want.

I guess the answer is, it depends .

One of the biggest "first timers" mistakes I have seen, and later had to deal with, is the overwhelming desire to totally disassemble the car. We had one come in that the owner had even removed the needles from the gauges. What you end up with is an overwhelming money pit, that never see's completion. You see them all the time for sale. Focus, plan, PHOTOGRAPH, and try to concentrate on assemblies and systems of the car.

One of the biggest "first timers" mistakes I have seen, and later had to deal with, is the overwhelming desire to totally disassemble the car. We had one come in that the owner had even removed the needles from the gauges. What you end up with is an overwhelming money pit, that never see's completion. You see them all the time for sale. Focus, plan, PHOTOGRAPH, and try to concentrate on assemblies and systems of the car.

Very good point. Think about what you are doing, don't just start taking things apart. That sounds simple, but you have to be deliberate. Know what you are taking off, why you are taking it off, whether you are repairing/replacing/etc, and how to put it back on. It's easy to get ahead of yourself.

Some excellent advice from those in the know here. My advice is always buy the best car you can afford and check out the spares situation with the relevant club. Beware of what might look like a bargain; if it looks too good to be true, it probably is! Also it is a good idea to take an experienced person with you to see the car before buying - it's surprising what people try getting away with. There may be accident damage that has been skilfully hidden. There is no such thing as a cheap restoration. Typically, a good restoration can cost more than the finished car is worth - even if you do a lot of the work yourself.

Ray.

Very good point. Think about what you are doing, don't just start taking things apart. That sounds simple, but you have to be deliberate. Know what you are taking off, why you are taking it off, whether you are repairing/replacing/etc, and how to put it back on. It's easy to get ahead of yourself.

Agreed 100%! Label all parts, including nuts & bolts and take photographs. You may get overwhelmed and somebody else may have to re-asemble the whole project back and you'll end up paying that labor for searching & hunting.

Thank you all very much for the advice.

Sounds to me like my best interest is to stay away from purchasing a a rust bucket. If I did purchase a rust bucket I'd not only have to learn auto mechanics (which is what I truly want to be better skilled at) but I'd also have to learn to fabricate metal to replace rust. And not only would I have to learn I'd also have to pay for the tools and have the space to do it. I don't want to overwhelm myself. Either that or I'd have to pay someone else to do it and it could turn out to be a money pit.

I think the best option would be to find a car with little to no rust and concentrate on mechanics. I'll have to save a bit more money. I've seen so many classic Dodge Chargers on ebay that are rust bucket clunkers and they are selling for near $10,000. The 1968-1970 chargers seem to be some of the most sought after muscle cars around.

What does everyone think of this deal on eBay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-standard-1969-dodge-charger-/151413868312?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2340f84718&item=151413868312&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

The seller claims there's no rust. $16,000 buy it now.

How much money do you have? What kind of shop? What tools? Any experience or training?

I have $9,000 cash saved but can borrow more via credit cards. No 'shop' just a two car garage that's usually empty. I don't have much for tools but my brother is gonna lend me a hand with that and I can only do basic car work like change oil, spark plugs, replace a radiator hose...basic things like that. But I've never worked on an engine or even worked on brakes.

1. Never borrow money to buy a collector car. Ever.

2. I like that the charger is in Modesto.

3. I do not like that it is in primer, but a car with old or original paint.

It's what we call a "basket case". Not suitable for a starter car. You would be better buy a runner and improve as a rolling restoration. Just ask yourself why this guy did not finish the car? Buy one like this and unless you are reasonably experienced it will probably defeat you. Probably a good buy for an experienced 'Charger' guy but not at that price.

Ray.

1. Never borrow money to buy a collector car. Ever.

2. I like that the charger is in Modesto.

3. I do not like that it is in primer, but a car with old or original paint.

I'm good about paying off my credit cards and my job is secure, I'll be fine.

Why don't you like the primer? I'm assuming he primered it to completely get rid of the rust so he could paint later.

It's what we call a "basket case". Not suitable for a starter car. You would be better buy a runner and improve as a rolling restoration. Just ask yourself why this guy did not finish the car? Buy one like this and unless you are reasonably experienced it will probably defeat you. Probably a good buy for an experienced 'Charger' guy but not at that price.

Ray.

So you are saying the body looks solid but the mechanical work needed could become a quagmire?

That car sort of reaffirms my earlier post in that "You see them all the time for sale". That's ALOT of money! Primer can be a sign that there was a rush to get it all one color to unload. You have little idea what was done, and how well. I would really rather just see the rust.

edit: Also, if you are set on getting a Charger, I would consider buying a chassis and body manual on it before purchase of the car. That will give you a much better understanding of what you are buying, and possibly missing. Read, read, read!

Yes, I think any quality shop would blast off the primer and start all over. Not certain but the primer may well been done to hide some poor workmanship.

John

A car with old or original paint will tell you what is under it. Primer or fresh paint will be hiding all the problems in the world.

There are two big problem with buying a car that someone else took apart.

1) Unless you are a Mopar expert you will have no idea how everything goes back together. (Where does this funny little bracket go, what order does everything go)

2) You can not be sure what parts are missing.

The MOPAR muscle car market is in a free fall except for the supper rare cars. Cars that were $100K at Mecum 5 years ago are now asking $35K and can't find a buyer. If you are looking to make a profit then you will need to find a more complete car or a totally different model all together. You will quickly realize that having $10K is tools will still leave you without some of the tools you really need. Many of us have been collecting tools for 20+ years and still need to go to the store for tools right in the middle of a job. This is not to discourage you, just a shot of reality. If your heart is set on a 70 Charger then no amount of persuading is going to get you to change your mind. Just be aware that this will be a 5+ year project and likely cost in the $30K+ range and that is after buying the car. Paint job alone will be $5-7K and that is just for nice driver quality. Show quality paint on a car that big could easily be $10K+. Who knows where the muscle car market will be in 5 years but I suspect cars will be worth MUCH less than they are today. People are realizing that the 69 Camaros, Mach 1 Mustangs, Chevelles and so on are not rare. You will see 50 of them at any little car show in the country and people are gravitating towards cars that are just as cool and are a fraction of the price (early 60's "muscle", 50s pickups, very odd or low productions cars) and the car market will reflect that int he next few years.

What does everyone think of this deal on eBay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Charger-standard-1969-dodge-charger-/151413868312?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2340f84718&item=151413868312&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

The seller claims there's no rust. $16,000 buy it now.

Wendal, Now that you have put it on this site, if it is a good car someone will buy it before you get an answer here.

Don,t post anything that you are thinking about buyng.

Again, I could not put it better than has been said. uh6077 has described the situation very well.

One tip. When I inspect an older car I go over the shell with a small magnet that I carry in my jacket pocket. You will find body filler in most cars it just depends how much and where it is. Chances are the vendor will get nervous when you start lifting carpets and go poking around in the trunk! Believe me, there are some real chancers out there but most will be guys like you who just got in too deep.

Ray.

If it's on ebay everyone interested in one already found it. It's not like it was hidden in a barn and for sale by word of mouth.

Now if you find one locally , listed in some rinky dink newspaper, I would keep that a bit more hush hush.

I have $9,000 cash saved but can borrow more via credit cards. No 'shop' just a two car garage that's usually empty. I don't have much for tools but my brother is gonna lend me a hand with that and I can only do basic car work like change oil, spark plugs, replace a radiator hose...basic things like that. But I've never worked on an engine or even worked on brakes.

Suggest you find a good, driveable car for under $5000. Save the rest for tools and repairs. This amount of money will not buy you a Charger but might buy a nice Valiant or Dart depending where you live.

Another possibility is a 75 - 79 Cordoba, basically a Charger with deluxe interior and face lifted exterior for a lot less money. That is, if you really want that large a car with the big V8 and power accessories. or a Dodge Magnum, another version of the same basic car.

You need to look at this from one of two perspectives:

One, if you want to learn the skills required to restore a car and are doing it more for the journey than the destination, then don't buy a Charger, buy a practice car first. Something that you will enjoy but which won't use up all your cash just in the purchase. In any restoration, the purchase is a tiny fraction of the overall cost of completing the car.

OR

Two, if you're doing it because you really want a Charger and this is the only way you can afford it, well, I have bad news: you can't afford it. It is ALWAYS (ALWAYS!) cheaper to buy someone else's finished car. You cannot put in "sweat equity" and make money on a restoration unless the finished project will be a six-figure car. You will spend years restoring it, you'll have sub-standard results (you're a rookie, so that's OK), and your finances will be perpetually drained while you're working. It is not cheaper in any way, shape, or form to restore a car than to buy a finished one.

The rest of the advice you've received here is spot-on. If you're just starting out, buy an inexpensive yet still interesting and fun car, and practice on that. Get one that runs and drives so you don't have a pile of car taking up your garage and killing your enthusiasm. Restore it one piece at a time instead of tearing it to pieces and doing a complete frame-off job. Learn the skills, hone your abilities, gather your tools and contacts in the business (you WILL need help with much of it, no matter how talented you are). Later, when you're confident in your abilities, that might be the time to find your dream Charger. But even then, it'll still be cheaper and easier to buy a finished car.

And for Pete's sake DO NOT use credit cards to buy the car! Oy! With maxed-out credit cards and no cash reserves, what, exactly, will you have left to spend on the restoration? This is a MASSIVE mistake in every possible way. DO NOT DO IT!

Start small, learn stuff, be smart, stay frugal and you'll get there. Few of us owned our dream cars right off the bat (some of us never get them at all) but there's a lot of fun to be had along the way.

Good luck!

Wendal, Now that you have put it on this site, if it is a good car someone will buy it before you get an answer here.

Don,t post anything that you are thinking about buyng.

Considering he found it on eBay I'm not so sure hiding it from us will keep any great "finds" secret. That may be good advice for the car hidden in a garage down the road but not one that is currently averaging 35 views per hour.

You may want to consider enrolling in an Automotive Technology class or two at the local junior college or adult education program. They usually have both general and specialty classes, all the tools you'll need, some cars to practice on, and comprehensive instruction (including safety.) As my Dad always says, it's better to learn on someone else's car. You'll get a good sense of what interests you or not, without spending money on specialty tools that you may not want to keep for the long run. Also, once you do buy a car to work on, many of these programs have provisions to allow past students to use the facilities and tools.

Once you start working on cars, you'll be able to make a better decision about how far you want to go in the field. For example, I took a welding class years ago, and it taught me two things: 1) I'm a horrible welder, and 2) Healthy respect for those who can weld, especially the specialized stuff like overhead welding. I now know that all of the welding work on one of my projects is to be done by others, and I'll usually save enough money in other areas to more than pay for the welding.

Often cars go cheaper on Ebay than they do locally. Many times, someone thinks they have some super rare gem because they have never seen one like it (in the Walmart parking lot). Then they find 6 of them on Ebay. So they list it, and the top bid is about what it is worth - 1/3 what they were asking for it, and that is the reasonable ones.

Years ago I belonged to the Oldsmobile Club of America and I remember a very cheerful article written by the owner of three nice well maintained original cars. I think he was from Pennsylvania. He had gone to his local banker when he found the first one and easily got a loan. After paying it off, he happily bough a second, and then a third. His ultimate goal was to have nice collector cars to drive. He was pretty smart.

At the time he probably got a 4 or 5 year loan with a modest monthly payment. The cars he bought were right there in front of him. There was no mystery of the out come, if the paint was flawed, delays for services outsourced, or any of the potential restoration horrors. His spare time was not consumed and he enjoyed the cars.

I ain't rite. I have 5 old cars. I bought three over the last six years. One was the "rust free body/broken motor" type. I have both time and money in that one and the little monkey still isn't making me happy. I just came in from working on it a few minutes ago. That's the Electra convertible. The 1994 Impala is pretty much perfect. I put tires on it. That car was at a local dealership with a bloated price. One Sunday I saw it sitting by the building with an $8500 price tag. Monday it was dealership, bank, and take delivery Tuesday. It came to $9,000 and was in my hands for a modest commitment. I got aggressive about selling some stuff had lying around and a little over a year later the three year loans was paid. I like that car, just had to have it.

In June I bought a solid running 1948 Packard. It was a modest cash deal and paid for from one of the tin cans in the garage that only my son and I know about. The Packard is a project, but licensed and capable of driving. I WANT to work on that car. I have had a desire for a flathead straight eight and an old car that wasn't finished just to drive around.

Money is not that hard to get. Free time and skills are much more rare. Sometimes having a part time job to pay for an old car seems a whole lot better than giving up part of your life to restore one.

If you are into math functions I can tell you one. For every one thousand dollars more, that you are willing to pay, you can get four thousand dollars worth of someone else's work. And that is a bargain.

Bernie

Unit bodies are difficult at best to restore unless you have one of those rotary mechanism to roll the body in any position. Buying a project with primer is buying some one else trouble. You do not know what is underneath the primer. This business has lots of fixer uppers for a quick buck. I recommend you buy a driver in original condition . Enjoy driving while you fix. Free advice is just that , worth nothing. The advice you get in this column is priceless. If you want to pay for the advice go ahead and buy a rusty ride. By the way the Mopars of the 70's were prone to excessive rust.