472 Caddy Engine Frozen? How do I Test?

I have a 68 Eldorado that I'm selling for $700. Its been sitting in my garage for a little over 20 years. The last time I drove-started it was 8 years ago (oil-fluid change, tires rotated, etc). I put it on Craig's List and a potential buyer wants to verify that the engine isn't seized. He pulled on a belt and said it should move. He thought the engine was seized. I told him I'd check it out. Anyway, I poured Marvel Mystery Oil in the spark plug sockets a week ago. I was then told to put a socket on the fly wheel bolt and turn it clockwise. The problem is, I can't find a center bolt on the fly wheel, just the bolts around the outer edges. I found a hole, but no bolt. Do I remove the smaller bolts to gain access to the center bolt? I'm really hoping to avoid buying a new battery and testing it that way, they're expensive and if the engine is seized, I'll probably just junk it. Does anyone know another way to check if an engine is frozen? Thanks!

I do not know what you mean by "fly wheel bolt?" The harmonic balancer, located at the bottom front of the engine with all the belts on it, is attached to the front of the crankshaft. It should have a large bolt in the center on which you need to put a wrench to try and turn the crank/rods/pistons.

I do not know what you mean by "fly wheel bolt?" The harmonic balancer, located at the bottom front of the engine with all the belts on it, is attached to the front of the crankshaft. It should have a large bolt in the center on which you need to put a wrench to try and turn the crank/rods/pistons.

I'm not really a mechanic...someone called it a "fly wheel", but I guess its really the harmonic balancer I'm talking about. I found it, but I don't see a center bolt.

Nope...I gotta get rid of it. I'm selling the house and the realitor wants it out so he can take picts of the garage. I have 27 responses so far from Craig's List, so I'm pretty sure it will sell if I can determine that the engine is not frozen.

If the bolt is missing that may be your first indication that the motor needs more work. I would get a donor battery from one of your, or one of your friends car. Just hook up the cables and bump the key to see if it spins. If it does the engine is free. If it does nothing don't assume the engine is stuck. There are other parts of the starting system that could be bad. If it doesn't spin just let whoever your selling it to know what you've tried. Be honest. At that price they should be expecting a car that need some serious TLC. Someone with mechanical ability will come look at it. Let them tell you what they think. Again, this is based on it not spinning with the starter.

If the bolt is missing that may be your first indication that the motor needs more work.

I have had the car since 1986 and never messed with the engine before. Could the bolt of come loose and fallen out on its own..or perhaps it was broken off when I bought the car? God forbid it's the later, as I would have no idea how to get it out. I'm going to try sticking a kebab stick in to measure how deep it is.

tim.

If you drove the car for any length of time I doubt the bolt was missing. Granted you have to use a puller to remove the harmonic balancer on most of these cars, but I think enough bumping down the road would knock it loose with the bolt missing. Is there any way you can post a photo of where your looking at. Pictures are worth 1000 words. That way we can get a better grasp of what your working with.

For that price why should anyone care if it's stuck. First $700 to show up at your door should take it. If that potential buyer is asking if it's stuck, go on to the next. He'll probably try to nit pick your car and try to get it for nothing.

If by some chance you start it, you must ask for way more. That's a steal running or not if the car isn't rusty.

You could take the battery out of another car and try it. Or just use jumper cables. This would be the simplest way to see if it turns over.

Another way is to "pull on the fan belt" but just pulling won't do it. I like to push or pull on the fan in the direction of rotation. If the belt slips you have to push the belt in, or deflect it, on the slack side between the fan and crankshaft. If you do this you can apply enough force to turn the engine, especially if the spark plugs are out and you have oiled the cylinders.

Incidentally, now that you have oiled the cylinders it would be best to turn the engine over with the starter to expell excess oil before you try to turn it over with the plugs in. This can make a mess, as oil can shoot out like a geyser. So, throw some old rags over the spark plug holes.

Is there any way you can post a photo of where your looking at. Pictures are worth 1000 words. That way we can get a better grasp of what your working with.

I'll see if I can get my camera up under the engine when I get home from work. Unfortunately, the car take up a lot of space...the garage door actually grazes the bumper on the way down.

Thanks!

All the advice above is sound. As for mine I think you should get some friends together and pull it out of the garage for better access. Use a jumper box or battery to see if the motor turns. Place a For Sale sign in the window while your trying to see if the motor is loose. 1) more accessibility 2) it's closer to the end of the driveway for the new owner if it sells 3) or the junkyard tow truck for pick up 4) someone may see the sign and offer you at least something o to take it off your hands. I heartily agree with Bleach's last comment. Good Luck !!!

If you drove it 8 years ago it is unlikely the engine is stuck.

If you drove it 8 years ago it is unlikely the engine is stuck.

I must have missed that part when I first read his post. Restorer32 is right. If the car has been stored inside away from mother nature with an oil change and run less then 10 years ago odds are the motor is not froze. Hook up a donor battery and hit the key. You have a really good chance that the car will turn over.

Is there any way you can post a photo of where your looking at. Pictures are worth 1000 words. That way we can get a better grasp of what your working with.

I got my camera up under the car and snapped a few picts. Not sure if they show anything, other than the bolt is missing. I did run a stick in the hole and it went in just a smidge over 2 inches. How long is the threaded part of the bolt supposed to be? Do you think I could get a 2" bolt and screw it in and try the wrench test? Thanks.

I have a 78 Toro w/a big battery, but the terminals are different. Do you think running jumper cables from the Toro to the Caddy will give it enough power to test it? If so, I'll try that. Thanks.

Thanks for the advice. If I can't the engine to turn, I'll just relist it and see if it sells. I'm sure someone will want it just for parts. I was thinking about stripping some of the parts to sell on e-Bay if I just junked it. The dash and door panels are mint and there's a bunch of good stuff I know I can sell off it.

Incidentally, now that you have oiled the cylinders it would be best to turn the engine over with the starter to expell excess oil before you try to turn it over with the plugs in. This can make a mess, as oil can shoot out like a geyser. So, throw some old rags over the spark plug holes.

Thanks for the advice on covering the plugs holes. I wouldn't have thought of that.

It will turn over with jumper cables if they are BIG. The ones they sell these days are so small they will not work.

Better to borrow the battery from your Toronado and put it in temporarily. Be sure to clean the Caddy's terminals, on the inside where they touch the battery post, until they are shiny. If it has the GM side terminals a quick wire brushing should do.

Cranking the engine over with the spark plugs removed can also squirt fuel onto the starter and set your car aflame. Ask me how I know this....

I got my camera up under the car and snapped a few picts. Not sure if they show anything, other than the bolt is missing. I did run a stick in the hole and it went in just a smidge over 2 inches. How long is the threaded part of the bolt supposed to be? Do you think I could get a 2" bolt and screw it in and try the wrench test? Thanks.

Make certain it is a hardened bolt or you may break it off in there.

It sounds like it would take little to get this car to run. Your, or the buyers larger concern is the old gas in the tank. I would keep the cranking to a minimum, so as not to pump this stuff up to the engine. If a buyer is serious about wanting the car I would have him jump it with his own battery or bring his own replacement. I would also ask a lot more $ for it.

Good point about the old gas. You should disconnect the gas line before cranking.

My advice: You haven't started the engine in 8 years. You are selling the car as-is for $700. That's a fair price if the car is in decent condition. Anyone who wants an Eldo is going to rebuild the engine anyways.

Don't waste your time doing anything on the car. You are selling as-is. Advertising in Craigslist will get a lot of weird buyers.

Advertise the car on this AACA forum. You'll get a better class of buyers.

I was searching the Internet to see how long the bolt was and found that the 472 didn't have a bolt! It had a cork. And now that I think of it, I pulled a cork out of the hole, thinking it was just a piece of junk stuck in the hole. I dropped it under the car. I guess I have to do the battery test.

That is strange. Every 472 engine photo I found on the internet had a bolt showing. The pulley will not come off from trying to turn it over if it hadn't done so already when you last ran it. I wouldn't worry about it now.

Yes it has to have a bolt. How else would it be connected to the crankshaft?

That is strange. Every 472 engine photo I found on the internet had a bolt showing. The pulley will not come off from trying to turn it over if it hadn't done so already when you last ran it. I wouldn't worry about it now.

Take a look at this thread.They're talking about the 500, but I saw the same thing about the 472. They are "press fit on". I'm looking for that thread, but haven't found it yet. I also saw 472's with bolts on the Internet. The thread mentions that you can put a bolt in, but it's not needed.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/53192-500-crankshaft-bolt.html

Am I reading the thread wrong? Thanks.

Yes it has to have a bolt. How else would it be connected to the crankshaft?

Take a look at this thread.They're talking about the 500, but I saw the same thing about the 472. They are "press fit on". I'm looking for that thread, but haven't found it yet. I also saw 472's with bolts on the Internet. The thread mentions that you can put a bolt in, but it's not needed.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/53192-500-crankshaft-bolt.html

Am I reading the thread wrong? Thanks.

Well, I learned something new today. I had no idea they didn't use a bolt. It looks as though you're reading correctly. None the less I would still try bumping over the starter.

Well, I learned something new today. I had no idea they didn't use a bolt. It looks as though you're reading correctly. None the less I would still try bumping over the starter.

I'm going to try the battery test first w/jumber cables, then I plan to pick up a bolt if needed, cut the belts and try turning it.

Why would you cut the belts? It should be possible to turn the engine by pulling on the fan using the method I described before, or turn it with the starter.

Or forget the whole thing and tell your customers for $700 they can look for themselves.

If you are selling this cheap, why are you wasting your time, damaging the car and reducing its value? Why not quit while you are ahead? If you don't know what you are doing just stop now.

Why would you cut the belts? It should be possible to turn the engine by pulling on the fan using the method I described before, or turn it with the starter.

Or forget the whole thing and tell your customers for $700 they can look for themselves.

If you are selling this cheap, why are you wasting your time, damaging the car and reducing its value? Why not quit while you are ahead? If you don't know what you are doing just stop now.

I really gotta agree with Rusty here. Get rid of it before you diminish the value further.

A lot of wasted effort here.

That front crank bolt if found and installed is not the way to turn an unknown old engine over. Leverage is wrong.

Put a good battery in it . See if it cranks over.

A quick turn of the IGN key will tell you in 2 seconds if the engine is free.

Done with it.

Why would you cut the belts? It should be possible to turn the engine by pulling on the fan using the method I described before, or turn it with the starter.

Or forget the whole thing and tell your customers for $700 they can look for themselves.

If you are selling this cheap, why are you wasting your time, damaging the car and reducing its value? Why not quit while you are ahead? If you don't know what you are doing just stop now.

I tried pulling-pushing the belts as you suggested w/spark plugs off. I couldn't get my arms down far enough with all the belts in the way to really pull & push. I plan to do the jump start w/battery first and leave it at that if the car cranks, but would need the belts off to wrench it w/a bolt installed. I also want to know for myself that the engine is still good. The belts are old and would need to be replaced anyway.

A lot of wasted effort here.

That front crank bolt if found and installed is not the way to turn an unknown old engine over. Leverage is wrong.

Put a good battery in it . See if it cranks over.

A quick turn of the IGN key will tell you in 2 seconds if the engine is free.

Done with it.

I plan to try the battery first. If it works, I know all I need to know about the engine. Thanks.

I think I may have lost some on why I'd cut the belts. I sent a link from another post which details a guy trying to do the same thing w/his 74 Eldo (make sure it isn't seized). If you want to look: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...haft-bolt.html

A lot of wasted effort here.

That front crank bolt if found and installed is not the way to turn an unknown old engine over. Leverage is wrong.

Put a good battery in it . See if it cranks over.

A quick turn of the IGN key will tell you in 2 seconds if the engine is free.

Done with it.

I plan to do the battery test and if it cranks...I'm done. I'll know the engine is not seized. If the starter is bad and does nothing, I'm still at square one with not knowing for sure if the engine is seized. The bolt is a standard 9/16-18 threads per inch. I'd only go that route if the starter method is inconclusive.

I have to agree with rusty, keiser and c49er. Leave it alone and just sell it as is. Keep your price firm.

I think I may have lost some on why I'd cut the belts. I sent a link from another post which details a guy trying to do the same thing w/his 74 Eldo...

That guy had no clue about UNC and UNF threads — hardly the sort one would look to for mechanical mentorship!

I doubt it will crank if you just hook up jumper cables. It needs a good battery to crank it over.

Save time and aggravation. Sell it to the first guy with $700 in hand. You'll both be happy.