WTB artillery wheels

I'm looking for three 16" artillery wheels of the sort pictured below, with a 5 x 5.5" lug pattern and 14 holes between the "spokes". Will buy other numbers of them if necessary. Any help or leads would be greatly appreciated.

Google at "Wheel Smith" 800-854-8937, they are a wheel manufacture and have the 14 hole wheel. Not cheap but new. Also "Wheel Vintiques"' www.wheelvintiques.com.

Thanks, but for reasons both of authenticity and expense, I'd prefer old ones.

By the way, this is another photo:

Thanks in advance for any help!

Still looking! Thanks.

What are they for?

They're for my 1937 Pierce-Arrow Travelodge travel trailer, which has two wheels with a mount for a spare on the back, though I'd buy four if that were what was offered, or fewer than three if that was all I could get. The photos above are all of wheels on other Travelodges. I've heard various reports as to who made the originals and for which carmaker, but I do know the dimensions (above) and that P-A used commercially available wheels.

Many thanks for any help you could offer!

Hello: I have3 1934 chrysler airflow rims artillery style as you show. what is your offer/

Hi Richard,

I don't have much idea what artillery wheels like this are worth. I also don't have much in the way of detail-- are they correct in all particulars (14 holes, 5 by 5.5, 16", and preferably with a 4.5" rim width)? What is their condition? And, where are you located? (I'm just wondering what the shipping might cost.) Can you send or post photos? If everything turns out to be OK about them, I'd think I would pay $200 for the three.

Hello; i seem to think you want buick rims? i will check details. Where are you located? YES they have 14 slots and are 5 on 5 1/2'" pattern

I'm in southeastern Pennsylvania. People had been suggesting that the originals were those used on Chrysler Corp. cars, but as I say I bet they just used what they could find. What about the other things I mentioned in my comment before-- condition, width, price?

Thanks.

Hello; i seem to think you want buick rims? i will check details. Where are you located? YES they have 14 slots and are 5 on 5 1/2'" pattern

For context, I own a 1937 Travelodge Model A. You state that that you have **five** lug drums: if so, the drums have been changed, as all Travelodges use **six** lug drums and wheels.

Following between the rows of asterisks is information from the Pierce-Arrow Society's Technical Committee chairman, which he sent me in 2004. Long before that he researched correct wheels for another owner. Interchanges are from Hollander's Manuals.

********

The 1937 Pierce-Arrow Travelodge was equipped with steel artillery (steel spoke) wheels which were used on several models of Chevrolet and GMC vehicles. In addition to the steel artillery wheels, these General Motors vehicles also used a wire spoke wheel or a disc wheel depending on the year and model of the vehicle.

The dimensions of the steel artillery wheels and the models of the General Motors vehicles on which these wheels were used are:

Travelodge Model A:

Tire size: 6.50 x 16

Rim (tire) diameter: 16"

Rim width: 4.5"

Number of bolts: 6

Bolt pattern diameter: 5.5"

Spokes: 14

This wheel was used on:

1935-36 Chevrolet EB and FB commercial truck

1936 Chevrolet Master car without knee action

1937-38 Chevrolet 1-ton truck

1937-46 Chevrolet 3/4 ton truck (Army KC, KD, KE, AL-3604-5 & BL-3604-5

1939-40 Chevrolet 1/2 ton truck

1941 Chevrolet sedan delivery

1942-48 Chevrolet 1/2 ton truck with 11" rear brake drum (Army BK-3103-4-5-7-16)

1937-45 GMC 3/4 ton truck

1937-48 GMC 1/2 ton truck

Travelodge Models B & C

Tire size: 600 x 16

Rim (tire) diameter: 16"

Rim width: 4"

Number of bolts: 6

Bolt pattern diameter: 5.5"

Spokes: 14

This wheel was used on:

1937-38 Chevrolet car without knee action

1937-38 Chevrolet 1/2 ton truck

[end of quotation]

*********

My Travelodge came to me in 2003 with one original wheel in the spare position and two non-spoked road wheels. With this information, I was finally able to find and purchase two more correct wheels. They were not cheap, even 10 yrs ago, despite needing sandblasting of multiple coats of paint. The reason these 4.5"-wide rims for **Model A** Travelodges are pricey, as told to me, is that owners of modified Chevrolets through 1948 favor them for installation of modern radial, wider, tires.

I can offer no suggestions on any correct-appearing wheels with five lugs.

If you are not already a member of the Pierce-Arrow Society www.pierce-arrow.org I encourage you to join. Visit our website and be amused for two hours! In the Members-Only section of our website, accessed through user name and password, we have a Message Board like this one (but on a much smaller scale) in which you can ask questions and have them answered by knowledgeable people, and also a Parts & Services Directory by which you can find part numbers, and suppliers of parts and services.

Best wishes for a successful restoration! We'd love to see photos!

Hi George,

I appreciate your input. I believe we've corresponded, actually. My information about five-bolt wheels came originally from the spare tire holder on the back of mine, which I presumed was original, but Ed Minnie of the PAS said that five-bolt was correct. I'd be glad to know more about the research done by PAS's Technical Committee chairman-- i.e., the sources he used for this information. I should, perhaps, post in the PAS's forums and see what other information people have. I do know that the original Travelodge brochures specified a standard 6.00 by 16 inches for tires and 4 1/2" wide for wheels-- not 4" for Model Bs and Cs. Of course the brochures might be wrong, or they may have changed practices in the middle of the manufacturing run.

Do you think you could post photos of your spare wheel (the one that came with it) and the spare tire holder? I started an online forum just for Travelodges (http://piercetravelodge.freeforums.net/board/1/general-board) and would like to post photos and this information.

Hi Matt,

I'll email you a photo of the spare wheel mounting arrangement on mine. There is a triangular retaining plate with bolts at 10, 2, and 6 o'clock. I won't have time for awhile (tour on Sunday plus another four days next week, with different cars to prepare) to dismount the wheel and photograph the mounting bracket.

As to 5 vs 6 mounting bolts on hubs and drums, I can only tell you that my late production Travelodge (the last Model A known to PAS) came with 6 bolt hubs and wheels, and that agrees with the info I received from Paul Johnson in OR, the PAS Tech Committee chair. Suggest you contact him directly (he's in the roster) for his original information source.

Perhaps you have a brochure that I don't. My green-tint brochure (the largest that I know of) shows in its spec section only the tire sizes, not the wheel width: it states that Model A uses 650x16 tires and Models B (yours) and C use 600x16 tires.

When I come up for air, I'll gladly have a look at your forum, and thanks for starting it.

Bests,

My memory is poor.....but I remember 100 percent I used Plymouth wheels. 16 inch, they even used the same hub caps as the factory Pierce wheels. I thought they were 6 lugs......but so much time has gone by I would need to check, I have owned 3 Travelodges, all used the same wheels and number of lugs........ I recently sold the running gear from a parts trailer at Hershey........was it to you? I'll try and take some photos this week when I get to the shop.

This may be of no help to anyone, but for the heck of it I Googled "Pierce Arrow Travelodge" -- "Images" and found this one with six lug wheels. Is there a chance that they simply used the Pierce Arrow passenger car wheels initially?

http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/plugins/PostviaEmail/images/1936_Pierce_Arrow_Project_Deserted_Find_For_Sale_Sedan_resize.jpg

Ed: I **almost** bought a set of Plymouth wheels at the Turlock swap meet, until I went and retrieved the original Travelodge spare wheel from my truck and brought it to compare with the Plymouth wheels. Side by side, they are quite different--as an unmixed set, they could pass.

Hudsy: The Nethercutt Collection's dark blue Model A Travelodge, restored in the late 1960s, does indeed wear Pierce 17-inch artillery wheels and Pierce hubcaps--but to do so, they had to mount a Pierce passenger car straight front axle, dropped about 6 inches, under the trailer. The Nethercutt A stands 8" or more taller than a factory Model A. They took other liberties in the restoration, as well, but it is indeed beautifully done. Travelodges had NO axle; the wheels were independently sprung with a tubular leading arm and a quarter-elliptic spring as a trailing arm. That's what makes them such a joy to tow, with no lurching across railroad tracks or other road irregularities.

The Travelodges (at least the A & had hydraulic Chev/GMC brakes, although Pierce never used hydraulics on their cars. The trailer's master cylinder mounted under the front sofa, and was operated by a vacuum booster cylinder, via a bellcrank--sort of a Rube Goldberg arrangement. 1936-38 Pierces used the same vacuum cylinder as a power assist. Literature indicates that a vacuum hose (with a check valve) was run from the car to the trailer.

handworn,

If Grimy is correct and you want to switch back to 6 lug wheels, I think I happen to have exactly 3 of those 1936 6 lug Chevy wheels in my garage. They need a new home. If you or anybody else is interested, I will be happy to take some photos and discuss a reasonable price on those wheels.

Grimy, thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry that I wasn't much help.

Hi Matt,

I might well be interested in those Chevy wheels, assuming they're what we now seem to agree is correct by the above specifications. (I was the one who bought Ed's wheel-and-suspension parts from a scrapped trailer, and they do have six lugs.) Please PM me.

Thanks!

handworn,

If Grimy is correct and you want to switch back to 6 lug wheels, I think I happen to have exactly 3 of those 1936 6 lug Chevy wheels in my garage. They need a new home. If you or anybody else is interested, I will be happy to take some photos and discuss a reasonable price on those wheels.

Hi George,

Travelodges had NO axle; the wheels were independently sprung with a tubular leading arm and a quarter-elliptic spring as a trailing arm. That's what makes them such a joy to tow, with no lurching across railroad tracks or other road irregularities.

Do you have any pictures of how the trailing arm was mounted? I have the ones I got from Ed at Hershey but am not quite certain what to tell someone if I'm having them remove the axle someone put on later and installing the original equipment.

The Travelodges (at least the A & had hydraulic Chev/GMC brakes, although Pierce never used hydraulics on their cars. The trailer's master cylinder mounted under the front sofa, and was operated by a vacuum booster cylinder, via a bellcrank--sort of a Rube Goldberg arrangement. 1936-38 Pierces used the same vacuum cylinder as a power assist. Literature indicates that a vacuum hose (with a check valve) was run from the car to the trailer.

Photos of the master cylinder, booster cylinder, bellcrank et cetera would be great, if you have them. (Just by the way, the Travelodge literature calls the brakes "Bendix Vacuum Booster Hydraulic Brakes". I suppose it's no surprise that they wouldn't mention their competitor, GM.)

Handworn: I have some photos of the suspension from when I repacked the wheel bearings, and others of the compartment under the front sofa showing the vacuum cylinder, master cylinder, and the bellcrank which connects them. They are archived on a detached hard drive and it will probably be later tonight PDT before I can email them to you at full resolution.

I still haven't decided how to implement operable brakes suitable for towing by (1) a modern truck, (2) my 1936 P-A with vacuum-boosted brakes, AND (3) my 1934 P-A **without** vacuum-boosted brakes. I'm looking for ideas, if you or your restoration company have any. One potential solution is to adapt surge brakes such as on U-Haul trailers.

I believe the Chev/GMC brakes were manufactured by Bendix, so Pierce didn't need to mention GM vehicle lines... :-)

Hi Matt,

I might well be interested in those Chevy wheels, assuming they're what we now seem to agree is correct by the above specifications. (I was the one who bought Ed's wheel-and-suspension parts from a scrapped trailer, and they do have six lugs.) Please PM me.

Thanks!

Got your PM. PM me your email address and I will send you some photos.

I have sent you photos of the artillery wheels that I have. Just for the benefit for those who are reading and who did not get the email, I think that the wheels that I have are actually 17 inch rather than 16 inch. (Just in case anybody else is looking for some 17 inch artillery wheels...)

The reason I used the Plymouth wheels was the hub caps were a perfect match. I was more interested in having the proper cap than a minor wheel difference. It has been 20 years so my memory is coming around. The independent suspension just bolts directly on the trailer frame......very simple. The bolt holes should still be in place on your trailer. And yes, the bolts holding them were chrome......Pierce Arrow quality.

Notice the first photo shows a beauty ring on the wheel also. Looks like I will have to see if I can find a set for my trailer!

Hi Ed,

Does the wheel arm simply rest right on the other end of the springs, or is it attached somehow? Have any photos?

Thanks.

The reason I used the Plymouth wheels was the hub caps were a perfect match. I was more interested in having the proper cap than a minor wheel difference. It has been 20 years so my memory is coming around. The independent suspension just bolts directly on the trailer frame......very simple. The bolt holes should still be in place on your trailer. And yes, the bolts holding them were chrome......Pierce Arrow quality.

Ed, the correct wheels might well be Plymouth wheels; someone at the H.A.M.B said they're often confused with Chevy wheels.  Still looking for some.

I'm also still looking for photos of how the trailing arms (and those odd triangular metal plates you sold me with the other parts) operate with the running gear, or where they attach.  I can easily see the bolt holes where the original suspension went; it's just the rest of it that there isn't much information on.

handworn,

If Grimy is correct and you want to switch back to 6 lug wheels, I think I happen to have exactly 3 of those 1936 6 lug Chevy wheels in my garage. They need a new home. If you or anybody else is interested, I will be happy to take some photos and discuss a reasonable price on those wheels.

Hello, Kinda late but... would you know where I could find a set of artillary's for a 36 FB Chevy? Thanks Don