1933 Plymouth brake hydraulics

I'm going through the braking system on my car and can't believe I just drove it down a steep hill! Cracked tee blocks and cross threaded unions just for starters.

Mine is PD but I have a handbook for a PC and it shows a pipe from the master cylinder (5/16" on my car) that goes to a tee piece on a corner brace (front left) where the front crossmember meets the chassis side rail and from here the pipe changes to 1/4" and heads off towards the front wheels.

Is this the correct position for this tee piece as it doesn't quite match what is on the car? Though mine is right hand drive it does look like they have just lengthened the pipe from where the master cylinder would be on left hand drive.

Send picture of what you need, I'll probably havpiecemealpiecemeal

Send picture of what you need, I'll probably havpiecemealpiecemeal

I think the PD is a 1933 model?

Assuming 33 PD instead of 31 PA...

On my PD the tee is on the front left a trifle forward of the steering box.

The parts book illustration shows a tee on the master cylinder with one line going aft and the other going forward to the "tee" in question. The parts book illustration calls it "Brake flexible hose union - left" while in the text the refer to it as "Brake tube frame tee (through frame) - left". My parts book is a re-print and the illustrations are not the greatest quality but if needed I could scan it for you. Looks like the part number for all PD models is 610754. The "tee" actually extends through the frame and has an opening for mounting the front brake hose with a banjo like setup.

The parts book lists a couple different tube part numbers for R.H.D. PD with a break at car serial number 2033942. For R.H.D. they also list a "Brake tube tee and bracket assembly" that I don't see for the domestic L.H.D. cars. So it looks like they left the domestic US style tee in its original location and used different plumbing to get to it from the master cylinder.

I've only ever seen that front left part on '33 PD cars though I guess it could have been used on other Chrysler product brands. I managed to ruin the one that was on my car when I got it. Fortunately that was 40 years ago and there were still a few '33 PD cars in the older junk yards where I lived at the time and I was able to snag a replacement. I vaguely recall cobbling together a normal through frame fitting, some tubing and a standard tee to replace my fitting until I was able to get a replacement and that might be an option for you though you'd have to make it look pretty professional to get through your MOT checks.

Assuming 33 PD instead of 31 PA...

The parts book lists a couple different tube part numbers for R.H.D. PD with a break at car serial number 2033942. For R.H.D. they also list a "Brake tube tee and bracket assembly" that I don't see for the domestic L.H.D. cars. So it looks like they left the domestic US style tee in its original location and used different plumbing to get to it from the master cylinder.

Yes it's a '33! Where did I get '31 from???

Interesting what you say - on my car there is the remains of a small bracket with a square hole in it that matches the back of the tee that is now mounted elsewhere. The bracket is mounted close to the master cylinder. Does it indicate in the parts book where it should be mounted?

Is the plumbing from your master cylinder in 1/4 pipe?

No MOT safety checks anymore for cars built before 1960, madness if you ask me and it looks like a european union directive will extend this to vehicles made up to 1980!

Yes it's a '33! Where did I get '31 from???

Interesting what you say - on my car there is the remains of a small bracket with a square hole in it that matches the back of the tee that is now mounted elsewhere. The bracket is mounted close to the master cylinder. Does it indicate in the parts book where it should be mounted?

In that era it seems that illustrations were a luxury and only to be used sparingly, so I have no idea where it should be mounted.

Is the plumbing from your master cylinder in 1/4 pipe?

I always get confused about pipe sizing as sometime they seem to go by outside diameter and other times by inside diameter. I just put a pair of calipers on the tube from the master to the front left fitting and it read 0.260 inches so I guess it is 1/4" OD.

I just put a pair of calipers on the tube from the master to the front left fitting and it read 0.260 inches so I guess it is 1/4" OD.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense to me. Having two sizes of pipe on my car seemed odd, it would be far better just to use 1/4" throughout so that's what I will do.

Since I believe your chassis would be Canadian, the "correct" routing for the brake line is from the master to that complex "T" on the frame up front,splitting right and left for the front brakes, and then a 3rd line from there through a lightening hole back to the rear of the car. So your car appears original. "However" by the 1935 1/2 ton Dodge commercial car chassis, which shares pretty well the same chassis as the 1933 Plymouth, a brass "T" was on the master cylinder and the rear line left there and went backwards. The front line still went to that front "T" but now it only split right and left for the front brakes. Knowning Chrysler they could have put the later system on the later PD but I personally doubt it.

This is the layout of how it was. The tee block "B" was hanging in mid air by the left chassis and the bracket that it appears to have once attached to is by the master cyl on the right side of the car! The handbook picture shows a tee at the front (where I have put an X) with a pipe running back to the master cyl.

I guess it will work no matter where I put the new tee.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]268912[/ATTACH]

This is the layout of how it was. The tee block "B" was hanging in mid air by the left chassis and the bracket that it appears to have once attached to is by the master cyl on the right side of the car! The handbook picture shows a tee at the front (where I have put an X) with a pipe running back to the master cyl.

I guess it will work no matter where I put the new tee.

The parts book lists two sets of numbers for some of the R.H.D. specific parts with a change effective at serial number 2033942. Is your car before or after that break?

From my reading of the parts book, your photo looks about what I'd expect for the earlier parts since they seem to reuse the same front and rear tubing as for the L.H.D.

Hard to tell with the partial view, but that master cylinder looks a bit more like the bolt in replacement used in later Dodge trucks than the one original to the '33.

Looks like the serial number is 9395644.

I don't think that master cyl is very old, certainly much cleaner than the other components.

Looks like the serial number is 9395644.

I don't think that master cyl is very old, certainly much cleaner than the other components.

Canadian built, eh?

Only 1071 of those were built in that series of serial numbers if I have my data correct.

Canadian built, eh?

Only 1071 of those were built in that series of serial numbers if I have my data correct.

Interesting, maybe all the "Kew" cars were Canadian origin? I read an article that said they were shipped in crates as kits.

Yes all CPDD vehicles left Windsor Ont. as "knock downs" and were reassembled at Kew Gardens outside London. Although Canada had British Commonwealth preferential tariff treatment,the British still wanted some input. So the seats and upholstery,including doors coverings, were left behind including all the electrics(which at that time were Delco Remy). Many British vehicles also had "Sunshine" sliding roofs put in locally. All your seats were covered in local cowhide and the electrics were Lucas 12 volt. Ours were 6 volt and would remain that way until about 1955. Your headlights are always some version of Lucas "Flame Throwers" it seems. Your cars also had mandated running lamps on the top of each front fender which ran with the headlights. I believe you also had to have BOTH rear lamps installed. We North Amercians still had only one on the left rear fender. Tires were also local Dunlaps instead of Goodyear "Diamond Tread" blackwalls which all Chrysler vehicles over here,cars and trucks, had for many,many moons.

I have an original Chryco diagram of both PC and PD brake lines and they are both the same as my outline above. Your connections looks like the 1935 Dodge ones I have. The Dodge master has a "long" brass "T" ,simliar to the one at your left front connection, hanging down and the front line and rear line are split there. My Dodge is original so it's connections are legit U.S.(It was built in Detroit.) Unfortunetely My AACA Uploader hasn't worked for 2 years or more so I can't put up a photo.

The lighting requirements are right but my car is 6v so maybe they changed to 12v later in the 1930s which rings a bell. Above is the only photo I have so far found of inside the factory and dated 1931. Looking to the right there are knocked down kits without bodies and I think this is how my car arrived.

I bought a book from a Plymouth or Dodge guy last year about the Budd steel body company of the U.S. Edward Budd went to the U.K. and set up a company called Pressed Steel bodies. I think that's where the bodies for the British Chrycos eventually came from. You can just make out the front fender lights on the finished cars at the far right and the twin rear lamps. Your 1933 Plymouth was also sold in the U.K. as a "Chrysler Kew 6". I used to have contact with a Brit in Yorkshire who had one. He was a retired bobby. It's looks just like a 1933 PC from here but had Chrysler name tags on it. I think they call it "badge engineering".

Cars were shipped to Britain in CKD kits from Detroit, not Windsor. The British Commonwealth nations had set up a series of preferential tariffs and all countries EXCEPT Britain agreed to it. Thus it was cheaper to import from Detroit than Windsor. If you check the serial numbers on the cars assembled at Kew none began with 9, the first digit on the Canadian seral numbers.

The 1939 models were the last assembled in Britain. The declaration of war in September, 1939, against Germany brought an end to auto assembly in Britain. And all were built from CKD kits. Production was never large enough to make tooling for British made panels economically feasible so all body panels were shipped from Detroit. British suppliers were used for interior trim, eelctrical components, rubber hoses and tires, etc.

Plymouths were sold as Chrysler Kew through the 1930's, with Chrysler Wimbledon added in 1934 and Chrysler Plymouth in 1937. In 1937, for example, Plymouth offered two series, P5 and P6. The P5 was sold as Chrysler Plymouth with the P6 sold as Chrysler Kew (no overdirve) and Chrysler Wimbledon (with overdrive). DeSotos were also sold as Chryslers in Britain starting with the DeSoto Airflow which was sold as the Chrysler Croydon Airflow. The post-Airflow DeSoto was sold as the Chrysler Richmond.

This is actually not "badge-engineering", but just "re-badging". "Badge-engineering" is taking one car, making some cosmetic changes, and you have another make of car. Rootes did that, taking a Hillman Minx, tuning up the engine to give more power, desigining diffenent grilles, tailights, and interiors, and coming up with Singer and Sunbeam models. In this case, Chrysler UK took cars that were already in production and just gave them different names. No engineering or re-designing of any kind involved.

Dodges were also put together at Kew starting in 1934. The models wiith the export small bore engines were sold as the Victory Six and regular engines were the Senior Six. In 1938 and 1939 Dodge built a handfull of Custom Eight models, which were Chrysler Imperial Eights with Dodge Custom nameplates and the Dodge hood ornament.

After the war Chrysler imported cars from either Detroit or, when the Canadian dollar was cheap, Windsor. And the Dodge Kingsway and DeSoto Diplomat models were also imported from Detroit.

Chrysler UK also gave some cars they assembled a unique British serial number. The 1934 model CU Chrysler Heston Airflow (aka Airflow Eight) had a serial number starting with CU. Leftover models sold in model year 1935 had serial number prefix CUL and for 1936, CUM. Starting serial number for 1936 was CUM-431. Which should give you a good idea what kind of "volume" Chrysler had in Britain - 430 model CU cars sold in two years. The "L" and "M" were the letters Chrysler Engineering assigned to the models years. The letter A was used for 1924-25, 1942, 1965 and 1982.

Pressed Steel was formed in 1926 in a partnership between Budd, William Morris (Morris, MG, Wolseley) and an American-British banking firm. Budd had control but the firm had problems with British steel manufacturers not being able to supply sheet steel in large enough pieces and high prices. It was cheaper to import from the U.S. In 1930 William Morris withdrew from the firm and Pressed Steel could now go after other companies for business. Budd interests withdrew from the firm in 1935 and thirty years later Pressed Steel became part of British Motor.

There were two other British body builders who built steel bodies - Briggs (taken over by Ford when Chrysler purchased the U.S. operation) and, beginning in 1937, Fisher-Ludlow. Fisher-Ludlow had absolutely no connection with Fisher Body in the U.S. and dated back to 1851 as manufacturers of various steel products. F-L was also taken over by BMC.

This is very interesting!

I wonder if the later cars came from Detroit and a some earlier from Canada? My chassis number starts with a 9 for sure.

The makers plate (somewhat weathered and worn) states:

CHRYSLER MOTORS Ltd

Kew Surrey

Model: KEW

Serial No: Q788-9395644

Engine No: FDX 1590

These numbers must be quoted in all communications.

The engine number is clearly marked on the engine as is the word 'export' and it appears the small bore version.

The fact that this car has a body by a local coach builder probably adds to the confusion!

Is there a place that the chassis/frame number is stamped normally?

Pressed steel became quite well known post war with their association with Bentley and I remember the 'Fisholow' tags on the Austins I learn't to drive on, always wondered if they had any connection to Fisher body.

. . . Is there a place that the chassis/frame number is stamped normally? . . .

On my PD the engine number, well almost the engine number, is stamped twice on the outside of the left frame rail around the running board supports. I say almost because they got the sequence number digits correct but put "PC" instead of "PD" for the model code.

Regardless of Chrycoman's opinions on badge engineering and Amercian shipments,your knocked down vehicle came from Windsor Ont. Windsor knocked downs were sent to Denmark,Finland,Sweden,India,South Africa,Austrailia,New Zealand and god knows where else.

The parts book lists two sets of numbers for some of the R.H.D. specific parts with a change effective at serial number 2033942. Is your car before or after that break?

From my reading of the parts book, your photo looks about what I'd expect for the earlier parts since they seem to reuse the same front and rear tubing as for the L.H.D.

Hard to tell with the partial view, but that master cylinder looks a bit more like the bolt in replacement used in later Dodge trucks than the one original to the '33.

I am am restoring a 29 DB "E" series truck. I have the copper brake lines. I have discovered that the brass tube fittings are a standard bolt thread and not the current tubing fitting thread. I do not know if this carried past 1930.

Any ideas?