25-45 motor disassembly

I drained the motor oil from my 25-45 and discovered it was mostly water that came out, so I figure the motor needs to be completely disassembled and inspected thoroughly. It also does not turn over, so something is stuck. Below is a photo of the sludge covered oil pump filter and pan with rusty bathtub rings marking the water level. When I got to the valve train, I removed the nut holding the valve lifter guide clamp, and the nut catapulted right over my head. What tool is used to compress the 3 springs in order to re-install the nut ? It looks like a good way to get hurt without having the right tool for the job. I have a spring compressor that works for a flathead ford, but it probably won't work for this motor. The valve lifter assemblies might be stuck down inside the block. Is there a special tool for pulling these out ? I tried prying them up with a big screwdriver, but they didn't budge. The motor head came off easily and the cylinder bores look good. Pistons are stamped STD and no signs of sleeved bores. Hard to believe the motor has never been bored out. I also notice the head bolt holes are not blind, but go directly thru and into the cooling jacket. Does the head bolt thread have to be coated with pipe dope to keep coolant from seeping around the threads ?

Kevin

Kevin,

I have a giant C clamp type valve spring compressor that may work for you. Yes, you do need to seal all the bolts & studs that penetrate the water jacket. Your block looks really good, but you should check under the beige goop on the block behind the rear side cover. You may have cracks that have been sealed by epoxy or something like it. Mine was cracked, had been welded and covered with orange RTV sealant.

Those cam follower springs are wrong. They arent supposed to be that strong, they are incorrect replacements.

Those bores look fantastic. However, if the engine were mine I'd completely disassemble it and carefully check everything to be sure all is OK. there may be other gremlins.

I dont think "Oregon Desert" is talking about valve springs. Just the cam follower springs.

How did so much water get in the engine?

Kevin, the others are certainly correct. I also suspect that the "fix" under the sealant has let go and water is leaking down the side of the block and into the pan. By the looks of it an awful lot of water got in. I also suspect that one or more of the rings have rust on them and are preventing the cylinders from moving. You can try a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. You will need to let the stuff do its magic for a couple of weeks.

You will need to repair the block. You will have to find a specialized welder to braze it for a permanent fix. For the brazing to work you need to have the block heated/hot so the brazing material takes. You may also want them to put in a couple of "stiches" to stop it from cracking in the future.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

If you have trouble getting the cam followers out, you can take the block off the crankcase and tap the followers out of their bores from the bottom using a brass drift and hammer. You might also find that the rollers on the followers may be stuck too.

Kevin

It appears that what you have is not a 1925 Master engine. The 25 Master engine water pump/starter generator shaft bearing boss is directly under the cylinder block water inlet between # 3 and # 4 cylinders. The lifter holders that are in your engine are to short as the clamp plates should bear directly on them. There should not be springs on the studs that pull the lifter clamp plates down on the lifter holders. The springs that push the lifters to the cam are also wrong as others have indicated. All of this needs to be correct or you will suffer significant camshaft damage if you have not already.

Jim Bourque

Jim, am I understanding you correctly in what you said about the placement of the shaft bearing boss for the MASTER series engines? Would this make this a STANDARD series engine then? Or could this be a slightly newer engine than 1925?

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Terry :

This is not a Standard engine. This does have an aluminum crankcase and no front water outlet from the head.

Larry

Its a 1924 Master engine

Thanks Rod W

I had heard that the 24 and 25 Master engines were the same, but obviously there are minor differences. The question I have is what engine series are the short lifter holders from? Of the 2 complete and 2 partial 25 Master engines I have, one had the short lifter holders and because they were not held by the clamp plates, the cam and crankcase are now junk.

Jim

Here are some pictures illustrating my question

First try at the picture thing, I hope they post.......

Jim

Is that the correct head gasket? Why are the openings for the cylinders so much larger than the bore and on different centers?

Good point Jerry, I didn't notice that when I first looked at the photos...

Jerry

The valves are quite large in this series engine. The combustion camber is partially in the cylinder block (approximately 20%) and the balance in the head. The cylinder bore diameter is less than the width of the intake and exhaust valves. The gasket is sized to the portion of the combustion chamber in the head.

Jim

To answer how the water got into the crankcase, my father pulled the car out of his garage and left it out in the rain with minimal covering over the engine. He did not install a gasket under the valve rocker cover or under the side lifter cover plates, so water was able to leak in and run down thru the valve lifter assemblies. I do not believe that dad ever got the motor running due to a few pieces that were still missing, so the only additional damage to the motor is resulting from approximately 12 years of fresh water rusting. The beige colored area on the cooling jacket is an old weld repair to some cracks. The beige stuff might have been a surface treatment since it appears to be applied to the entire weld repair zone. Here is a closer view of the repair

I removed the connecting rod bearing caps and was able to easily push #1 & 2 back away from the crank, but #4 thru 6 needed to be pushed with a hammer and piece of wood. There is some surface rust in the lower end of the bores up to where the piston rings blocked the moisture. I pushed all the pistons out of the top end of the block so I can reach in and sand the rust out of the lower end of the bores.

Here are the main bearings and caps. The babbit has no apparent cracking or flaking, just a slight gouge and a couple of small pits in the rod bearings. The crankshaft journals show some shallow pitting which does not show very well in the photo.

I had earlier removed the crankshaft- flywheel nuts, but the flywheel still did not come loose so I left it attached to the crankshaft during removal. this made for a tricky removal. Do I just knock out the flywheel-crank bolts with a soft hammer ?

The camshaft turns but won't pull out of the block. There must be a keeper holding it in- where is it located ?

Which valve lifter assemblies are correct for this motor ? the long or short ? (yes its a 24 motor)

Kevin, I have been following your thread here with interest. Are you going to blast all of the internal parts (crank, camshaft, pistons and rods) with ground walnut shells to clean everything up before you start the re-assembly? My Dad was into 2-Cylinder John Deere tractor restoration for many years and he introduced me to this process early on. Machined surfaces are in essence polished and gear teeth look as just machined. I understand that your engine is a 1924 - the Standard and Master designation did not come into being until the following year with the new 1925 models. This is interesting about the valve sizing and placement for this engine. Based on the photo, one of the valves must have been completely within the cylinder bore. It appears also in the photo that the head gasket was quite thick. Very interesting indeed. I learned something new here.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Kevin

The cam is held in the block with a brass plate with 2 fasteners behind the fiber cam gear. Drift the 6 flywheel bolts out with a brass punch, these bolts are special and must be reused.

Jim

I finished removing pistons, cam, and valve lifters last weekend. I had to compress the piston rings and push them back into the upper block before removing from below, and somehow one of the top rings failed to compress and it caught on the top of the block and a small piece broke off. These pistons & rings were new when dad assembled the motor 30 years ago.

The babbit on one of the rod bearings has a shallow gouge, which I estimate to be .003 to .005 deep, shown in the zone between red arrows in the photo. is this OK ?

The camshaft keeper bolts were accessible thru the 2 holes in the fiber cam, but the cam would not pull out until the valve lifters were pushed up enough to clear the center cam bearing journal. With the cam out, the valve lifter assemblies could be pushed out using a softwood stick and a mallet.

I am relieved that cam is in good condition. There is only some minor surface rust in a few places. When dad bought this motor, the cam was deeply rutted where the rollers contact, and he found a machine shop that could add metal back to the cam and regrind to the correct profile, which must have cost him $$.

According the 1916-1932 Buick interchangeability manual, the short valve lifters #207554 that were in the motor are from 1928 6 cyl. I have (11) of #166139 lifters which are 1924-1925 6 cyl, but they are a motley looking set.

Buick was apparently tinkering with valve lifter design for a few years.

Of my (11) 1924 style lifters, the 6 inner roller sleeves on the left have a single hole drilled thru which drips oil onto the roller, and appear to be #165805 in the 1924 parts book. These are all scored, which must have dumped a lot of metal particles into the oil system while it was occuring. The design was revised by adding an external lube groove, (4 parts on right) and a second hole drilled thru to provide lubrication between the inner and outer sleeve, which apparently helped reduce the scoring problem. what year was this additional lube hole added ?

The roller thickness on the 1928 design was also increased from approx .365 to .430, which should also help reduce wear on the cam. I am inclined to use the 1928 style lifter assembly in lieu of the 1924-25 design. The main difference between long & short lifters is the overall length of the outer sleeve, yet the only functional piece of this sleeve is the lower section that inserts into the block and guides the inner roller sleeve. The rollers in my #207554 valve lifters shown above are pitted, so I should probably replace them. who is a good source for the rollers ?

Kevin