BCA Judging issues

John, be glad you only need a few small items. Apparently some marques are having real problems finding air conditioning parts:

Although the picture is a little outrageous, it is pretty obvious the wrong part was used. That is the basic reason for the 400 point system in a less dramatic way.

Some members saw the inaccuracy of BCA show cars through the 1980's and recognized the expense using incorrect leather, installing the wrong year hub caps, and even using parts in short supply on a different car. The last points could deprive an owner of needed parts.

The 1989 Batavia Nationals was the first BCA meet to use the 400 point system. The increase in the quality of the cars today has been influenced greatly by the standard established by the 400 point judging system. And, in the owner's financial favor, the club has provided verification of the extra investment for a quality job.

My cars are quite a ways down the 400 point scale. I consider my entry date into the hobby as September 1959 when I bought the Rod & Custom magazine with the yellow coupes on the cover. That was in the days before a hobbyist had a pop rivet gun and the patches over rust had to be screwed on. I have seen enough things done wrong so I put out the extra effort to meet "the standard" whenever I can.

Bernie

Since we are talking about judging issues. I confess it has been a while since I have been able to attend a National Meet and some of this is from memory.

There have been many allowed, not factory original or correct, safety improvements that are not point penalized if I recall correctly. Seat Belts, turn signals, brake lights. Other considerations were made when R12 became banned by the EPA and R134 became the only "legal" manufactured refridgerant. Updates to air conditioning systems to allow the use of 134 were not considered modifications for judging purposes. Now to my question, has the judging book ever been updated to allow for retrofitted dual master cylinders? I believe there was a factory retrofit kit available in the mid 60's, manual 5468491 and power assist 5468492. As an owner of multiple first gen Rivs with original single cup masters, having lost brakes twice, two different cars, different causes, installing the dual was a no brainer, factory authenticity be damned. Using Buick parts with comparable quality workmanship, should this still be a mandatory deduction for modification?

Larry

I would suspect that IF there was a "factory authorized" upgrade kit, whether it be for master cylinders, power steering, power brakes, cruise control, or similar, with a Genuine GM part number on it (verified by the Buick/GM Parts Manual, then there probably be no parts deduct as all of these kits used OEM production parts in them, typically, although there might be some minor differences from the OEM production/installed items. Possibly even the same for dealer-installed GM accessory a/c kits, where available.

corre

In the 1980s, many of the parts needed for accurate restorations/repairs were usually not considered, by observation. No one usually was really picky about "correctness" as long as the parts worked. For example, it was usually easier to procure a Gates power steering hose rather than a factory GM power steering hose (usually suspected of being more expensive and "not readily available"). Function was the most important issue, even in interior trim items, as long as "it looked nice" with "factory-type" workmanship.

Many times, the "incorrect" upholstery was no less expensive than to get the correct stuff, IF the owner wanted the correct items . . . especially if they were not located in a metro area or had access to a large vehicular upholstery vendor. In THOSE times, Hemmings Motor News was just being discovered (by those not in the hobby) and not available on every newsstand, so places like SMS were not widely-known-about Additionally, "making it nicer" was also operative for the general public getting their older vehicle "fixed up" rather than getting a new vehicle.

To me, the issue of using the aftermarket "POA Eliminator Kit" should be a deduct. Why, although many vendors sell them as being necessary to use R134a? BECAUSE my online research revealed that GM POA valves ARE adjustable (and it's easy to do!) to use with R134a. GM claimed they were non-adjustable, BUT it turns out they are. Ford use similar POA valves and also gave procedures of how to adjust them, but GM never did that, for "warranty" reasons. Send me a private message with your email and I'll send you the file with the information in it. If I could find it, then others should be able to, too! I've even some vendors claim their "fix kits" to be actual "POA Valves"! To me, one of those kits is just as bad of an indiscretion as incorrect upholstery in a "stock" class, but that's just me.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

This is a really interesting thread. I have judged at more BCA Nationals than I can remember, having been everything from a judge to a Head Judge. The 400 point is actually a great system that in most cases could not be fairer than it is. I did judge at this years National in Portland, and one thing I have noticed is that whenever a meet is held for the first time in a location , many of the cars presented for judging lose points for reasons that do not occur at meets in the Midwest for instance .(where there have been a great deal of Nationals) Owners showing some really nice cars lose points for reasons that really do not take much to correct. (wrong valve stem caps, wrong hose clamps, fuzzy dice hanging from the mirror). Having said all that my team judged more cars that turned out to be brand new Seniors that I can ever remember and they were all very well deserved.

I know when I have acted as team captan (and I have seen others do this also), we will often tell an owner that non authentic accessories will cost him points if they are there when we judge the car, thereby giving them a few minutes to make such items disappear.

Any of you that know Bill Bergstrom, will know that he has driven his 1940 wagon at least 40 thousand mlles since it was restored and he still continues to get a senior preservation award whenever he shows his car. (so much for needing to be a trailer queen to win)

With the 400 point system cars are not actually judged against one another, but against a standard. I have seen unrestored cars win silver and bronze awards. A car can lose a whole lot of points and still get an award.

There are many members that feel that the time and investment in their cars as well as the distances to be traveled to the National meets indicate that they would rather tow than drive. There is no down side to either approach.

In all the years I have been judging , I have never been on a bad judging team that killed the cars we were judging, in fact many teams really try to give advice (after judging) to help owners correct issues and prepare for other meets.

The current 400 point system was copied from the AACA judging system, which has worked well fro them for many years.

Just my two cents worth.

hi Jack( I can't say that in an airport) as you know I always respect your knowledge on the BCA and on the Buick's. But I do have one complaint about the judging. I was on a team with a brand-new inexperienced captain( now I know everybody can't be experienced onto you have done it once or twice) but of course I would mention any names at a respect for them and the club. But my team captain was overwhelmed with paperwork. We had over a dozen cards in our class which is IC is too much for any Capt. We had two judges that I believe never judge the Buicks before but the judge for another car nationals show. Jack I must tell you that my captain and those two judges killed every car that we judged I complained to him that him and those two judges were spending more than 30 min. on the cars. He gave me the reason that he spent in that much time on it was because he wanted to do it right. Now remember we had over one dozen cars in our class. Myself and another judge were finished in less than 5 min. again we had over a dozen cars to judge we ended up at the banquet and I watched I believe eight bronzes and two gold. I know of one senior that didn't even get gold. Now I know I should have talked to a head judge about my team but I cowered instead. I know that every one of those 12 cars and more work very hard to be there with their Buicks I would not be surprised if we don't lose at least eight members in the BCA out of that class alone. Let me just say this it was a good show the administration did a good job I am not here to judge anyone on our board I just had to get that off my chest. I've judged about 10 shows and I will continue to judge. I do think every judge and Capt. for working so hard on our meets.

Wouldn't it be nice to just have a meet once every 5 years that did not involve judging? Just camaraderie?

NOW you're talkin Jake, now you're talkin!!!!! and ad to that, it should be at the birthplace of Buick, Flint, Michigan.

While we're at it, let's have ALL Buicks parked together on the SAME show field parked in chronological order from the very first ones to the latest ones.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AMEN to that, and give only dash type plaques. NO JUDGING would be so relaxing.

Flint at least every other meet, IMO

Dale in Indy

NOW you're talkin Jake, now you're talkin!!!!! and ad to that, it should be at the birthplace of Buick, Flint, Michigan.

Count me in on the side of this one. Great idea Jake.

I like the idea of the buicks being together (and in year of manufacturer order) Even in a judged show this could be done and the window card color would identify if they were to be judged, displayed, etc.

One problem we have with a local show is people that bring more than one car want to park them all together so they can be near their cars. This is a all brands car show so Mustangs are together and Corvettes are too as well as other classes.....if a person wants all his cars together we have an area for that and then he and the cars are in a "display" only area. This helps the judges and gives the owner the option of having his cars together or apart and judged.

Sorry, guys, but I disagree with the idea of no judging at the national meets, and I think I lot of other BCA members will disagree with that, too. You may not like it, but a lot of people are into the idea of authenticity when they restore a car, and like to have their efforts evaluated and recognized once their car is finished. To me, a national meet with no judging is a "cop-out". I will be bringing three cars to Springfield for the national meet next year, and I expect to have them judged. I've already heard a few complaints from members who live in the northeast and have learned that the 2016 national meet near them is not going to have any judging. This may be the only national meet in the next several years to be in the northeast, and now they can't have their car judged there. Not everyone can take off from work for a week or more to travel to a national meet halfway or all the way across the country.

To those who don't want judging, no one says you have to enter your car to be judged, but at least give those who want judging a chance to have their car judged at a national meet.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

To those who don't want judging, no one says you have to enter your car to be judged, but at least give those who want judging a chance to have their car judged at a national meet.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

With all due respect . . . it strikes me that some might be having "mid-term memory loss" . . . or weren't around for the intense discussion prior to the last national BCA Meet in Flint, not the Centennial Meet where there was no judging, but the later meet where there was no judging . . . when multitudes of BCA Members flatly stated that THEY would not be bringing the Buick(s) they'd been getting ready to bring to that meet to be judged IF there would not be any judging at the meet.

You see, there ARE some BCA members who work on their cars for several years with the intent of bringing them to a particular BCA National Meet to enter in the higher-level judging events! THAT's what they've been working for for a good long while, so for them to not have the opportunity to "live their dream/desire", I suspect they just throw up their hands and stop working on their car as the particular event they were aiming for will have no judged classes. I highly suspect that if one might stop and consider that particular scenario, if possible, then Pete's last statement makes very significant sense!

In that earlier discussion, the orientation of "I'm not coming to a non-judged BCA National Meet as the best Buicks might not be there . . . the ones I would like to see to assist in what I'm trying to do with my car." People tend to not get excited about coming across the country, or across town, to a car display if they might not be assured of seeing what they would like to see. In THAT orientation, having a completely non-judged meet (other than the Centennial Meet, where it was assured that all kinds and types of Buicks would be on display), can mean fewer people spectate OR attend, which soon becomes a financial issue for the orchestrating organization of the meet.

Also, in that earlier discussion, some of the earlier BCA Members weighed-in about the earliest BCA National Meets being non-judged. About how it was "the friends you made rather than the cars" that was a main reason for attending the meet in the first place. All valid points, for sure, but as the hobby has progressed, having some sort of National-level Judging at National-level vehicle clubs has become necessary, being that the particular National Meet is the "capstone event" of the year for that particular marque.

It seems that many in the BCA WANT an all-encompassing Buick meet each year, which is good, BUT it also seems that some might tend to be more focused "on what THEY like" rather than seeing "The BIG Picture" of things AND the fact that some people live and breathe for the accomplishment of having their Buick entered in the 400 Point Judging at the BCA National Meet to see how THEIR car stacks up against "The BCA Standards" in the judging. If you want to bring your prized Buick to the meet, but don't desire to get involved in the judged show events, that's fine . . . THAT's why there is a place for just that to happen . . . whether you want your car parked next to a 400 Point Judged aspirant vehicle (might some of the goodness 'rub off' on your car?) or whether we give those vehicles a special show field of their own at the event.

Please pardon the intensity of some of my remarks. Perhaps I'm just getting a little tired of hearing comments from some who want things "their way" rather than considering how OTHERS in the BCA might react if "their way" was "the only way". Personally and professionally, we NEED the participation of ALL BCA MEMBERS at the BCA National Meets (who can attend) IF it's going to be a decently-successful financial situation for the BCA organization. One group inadvertently motivating another group to not attend is not good--period. We NEED as many BCA Members as participants as possible--period! There's a reason for the multitude of participation possibilities and opportunities at BCA National Meets!

With All Due Respect,

Willis Bell 20811

I can go to the local car cruise if i want ti sit around and kick tires.

Right on Pete, Willis and Keith! Whether I have a car judged or not I can always find the beer and a bunch of 'enablers' to share that camaraderie. Flint is a good idea if put on by the National Meet Committee (with judging), but that would give the members of that local chapter a case of hives or at least a bad rash .

Willie

Willis,

I agree that "we NEED the participation of ALL BCA MEMBERS at the BCA National Meets".

The BCA National Meet Committee should strive to provide for the interests of all BCA members.

As I said at the membership meeting, "The BCA National Meets are four day events with a Judged Car Show on the last day".

Therefore, parking by judging classes should only be required for judging day & not for the entire meet.

Well stated gentlemen. The logistics of changing parking around for the final day could be cumbersome. There are always folks who want to park their car once and leave it.

That at said, the one argument against parking by year / era is regarding the judges having to do some extra walking and determination of whether or not cars are judged. As a judge myself, I believe that is a weak argument as a class is typically small enough that it isn't out of control. Judging team captains are supposed to determine the cars to be judged so the onus is on them. One suggested improvement was that the colour coding of sheets between white and blue can be difficult if behind tinted glass, just put an abbreviation for the nature of the car along with the class (ie Driven, Display, 400, etc.). That makes it highly visible as to how the various judging teams should address the car based on the window card.

That at leaves a final question of how to potentially modify the banquet and awards ceremony to be more inclusive. There is typically a rather lengthy program devoted almost exclusively to the 400 point cars with a nod given to modified judging and a few other special awards. If we could modify the program so that all members come away feeling appreciated for their participation in the meet, perhaps banquet attendance would increase (granted I understand cost / frugality is part of the equation as well).

Just an opinion....

Ames was my first National. If I remember correctly,we parked almost any where until Sat morning. For sure we did at Concord. South Bend we parked any where until Sat. I guess I don't see what all the fuss is about! I can come up with several different scenarios I would enjoy. I sorta like the idea of having them lined up by year.At least for a day. Seeing the differences , year to year, would be neat.

Ben

I agree with you Ben. I don't remember being told where to park on any day but the show day. I do remember being advised " informally" at South Bend and at Portland ( incorrectly by the way) where our class was to park. But I don't think there was a requirement to park there before Saturday. I do think parking on show day by era ( regardless of class) is a good idea. Of course who will define the Era's?

I also think Thriller is right about including all classes in the Banquet. If nothing else it would be nice to have all receiving driven awards, and all who participated in the display only class, stand and receive recognition and thanks for participating.

As for the banquet . . . as Ed Sullivan might comment . . . "That's a really big sheewww". It seems that as the BCA used to have ONLY 400 Point Judging, that's been the main focus of that event, plus the other awards related to maintaining prior Gold-level achievements. Seems that I recall (from 1999), that the original Driven Class Awards (medallions) were to be awarded on the show field rather that during the banquet, possibly due to how long it might take to do that, additionally, during the banquet (which had a reputation for being "too long" as it was (typically). I do concur that some sort of recognition at the banquet would be good, as things have evolved.

As for the Modified Division, before THAT group formed, there was no place on the 400 Point show field for those cars, nor could they be a part of the "regular show field". If there were any modifieds at the meet, they were in their own "show field" with judging done by "an independent group", with their own separate awards. And, as Divisions came to exist for other "too new" vehicles (as Reattas), I suspect they would like some recognition, too, at the banquet. And the size of the "circus" just keeps getting bigger and bigger as time advances!

Perhaps the banquet ought to start at 2pm and end at 10pm? Only thing is that THAT timing would make trophy/award manufacturing a much more intense operation (as I know about!). Or have a "sectioned" banquet with the Modifieds and other divisions/classes do their event earlier and let the 400 Point Judging portion commence about 7pm? Using that "timing" might entice some to enter the non-400 Point classes so they could get their banquet & awards out of the way and leave (if desired) as the 400 Point Judging banquet begins? Hmmmm . . . that might be an interesting concept to explore!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

As this thread rabbles on I begin to have a more clear memory of a 1952 or '53 Cadillac that was for sale near me around 1990. The owner had restored it with all the best universal parts J. C. Whitney and Western Auto had to offer. The "cut and fit" weatherstripping and carpet stand out in my mind. And he had put a lot of time and money in the car. Everything needed to be replaced to make it acceptable, to me, anyway.

I know the owner dealt with a lot of frustration trying to sell it. There were signs of angst when I was talking nice. I wonder if the car ever sold or if the family stashed it in some scared corner waiting for Cadillac to offer them a new car in exchange for their heirloom. Maybe J. C. Whitney has it on display?

The greatest benefit of the 400 point system really is to the owner or their heirs.

Bernie

I understand very well NTX. I guess what is in my mind is to put recognition on a more even footing. Making the awards longer is one way of doing it, but perhaps we need to go the other direction and reduce the pomp and ceremony regarding the 400 point awards. People resist change and I know some wouldn't like it, but do we need two hundred folks to walk up, stand around waiting for their name, and getting a plaque and a handshake on the spot? Perhaps having a table like registration with a few volunteers able to hand out the plaques after the banquet could work. Even if they were announced by name, Buick model, and award, and then just stood up for recognition, others wouldn't need to wait for folks to make their way to the front of the room. This could either have the effect of speeding up the banquet (with some extra work to be done after handing out the hardware) or would allow for a banquet of the same duration that allowed more time for recognition of others or something.

I'd rather see everyone together and included than splitting things up. As it is, some of the different groups and divisions are almost a bit like cliques already.

Derek, i for one enjoy seeing which cars win, and i find it fun and exciting watching friends names called and them receiving awards. I agree this is a long process and it could certainly be streamlined more without to much trouble or change with similar ideas to yours. I would wager a guess that if there were no awards at the banquets that the banquet numbers would drop significantly.

I still oppose the placement of all year cars together, i certainly think they should all be on the same field and not spilt off into other parking areas though. There is often a very different mindset between those that are displaying a car or one that is showing a car for judging. You will find the same set up in the AACA and i don't here complaints there, show cars, HPOF cars, and driven cars.

I can only offer an unofficial opinion as to my observations for the Buick Anniversary events of 2003 and 2008, and now 2016 for the BCA 50th year celebration. These events all had quite large participation (noted about the concerns in 2008 when some resented the lack of judging and thus may not have attended) and with a large number of attendees it would have made judging an overwhelming task. So, once again, trying to make most people happy seems to again caused disappointment to some. I think we next to see where future meets are to be held (awaiting the latest BOD Minutes) before raising too much concern about the next close National in the east.

Being involved somewhat in the planning for Allentown, I believe this well be an event where you might be glad you did not need to spent much time during the event for judging, Be prepared to relax and enjoy great Buicks and fellowship. But I understand the frustration of expected and than losing a chance for judging close to home. My first presentation of my 1932 after restoration was in 2003 in Flint. But I came home impressed with the BCA and no first chance for judging. I was not disappointed as I still learned a lot about the judging process by the informal discussion with those familiar with the Class and this helped for the future. Again in 2008, I drove the '68 Riviera to Flint and again had a good time, especially in convoy with others from NY State.

John

I do think special occasions are an exception, they would/will pull large numbers regardless of judged or non-judged. I don't even mind a special meet that is not judged but it should not be made a regular thing. On the flip side, that guy that has a fresh restoration and has to wait an entire year may not be on the same page.

2016 wont be judged?

I concur with the "special meet/venue" (as the Flint Centennial Meet) not being judged due to the larger-than-normal number of vehicles being expected.

In theory, all chapter events are to be judged under the 400 Point System, as a standardized measure situation. Only thing is that it usually doesn't happen at the chapter or regional level. Not all chapter members are qualified judges is one reason. Also, not everybody understands that there could be no "1st place" Gold-level awards at any BCA-oriented show, unlike at shows they might attend which are hosted by other entities. Now . . . if there might be a group of Traveling Judges who could attend these events and give a more-valid judging critique to the vehicles, that might work at the lower levels of the BCA organization. As the regional show is not a national show, whom might the disgruntled vehicle owner appeal to (after a regional show)?

Another issue could be that if a regional show judging group awards a vehicle a "Silver" award, then the same vehicle goes to a national meet at gets a "Bronze" award . . . with NO changes between shows. That can make things into a "Who looks at it" situation, unfortunately, but this can also be in play at national meets, too.

End result is that every so often, there can be some BCA National Meets which don't offer the 400 Point System judging. NOW . . . this might not prevent an owner's fresh restoration from attending, where the owner can receive many admiring comments (as at a BCA National Meet), just no formal plaque of how good the vehicle might be. Also, that particular owner can also peruse other similar vehicles which DO have 400 Point System awards in their history, possibly discovering something they've done wrong, but NOW have an additional year to "make it right". This activates "the network" aspect of mentoring on how or what to do in vehicle restoration.

Obviously, the "As good as the Gold-level Senior Preservation cars I saw at that meet" is not quite the same as a plaque commemorating the situation, but the learning experience can be priceless", especially if errors were made (to be corrected before the car might get judged later on). The interaction amongst the owners IS one of the reasons to attend national-level events, especially if friendships are made and flourish as a result!

So, several things to consider . . . especially in how the information about which future meets will be 400 Point Judged and which might be a "special occasion" where no formal judging will take place.

Enjoy the lemonade!

NTX5467

Another issue could be that if a regional show judging group awards a vehicle a "Silver" award, then the same vehicle goes to a national meet at gets a "Bronze" award . . . with NO changes between shows. That can make things into a "Who looks at it" situation, unfortunately, but this can also be in play at national meets, too.

NTX5467

That can and does happen even on the National level - years ago I was the head judge in a group, a car that had won a gold the prior year got a silver that year. We found things that were not picked up the year before (that was verified by looking at the year befores judging sheet after the individual went psycho on the chief judge in the weeks after the show ) - to this day that individual still holds a grudge against me(not that I care). So with any meet, it's how knowledgeable the judges are that makes the difference. Let's face it. we all know what's wrong with our cars for the most part and just get miffed off when someone find it.

Edited September 17, 2014 by my3buicks (see edit history)

.. Let's face it. we all know what's wrong with our cars for the most part and just get miffed off when someone find it.

:D

I don't really get the excuse for not judging an event because there are a lot of cars. The Nationall event grows each year, and the judging has continued. Do you think there were 300 cars to be judged at the earlier National Meets? Of course not. Yet, the judging evolved to handle the larger number of cars. Who is to say we can't judge the larger events? Yes, it will be more work, but you will have twice as many people there to help. If time is a concern, have the judging on Friday (like they did in Ames in 2010) and the banquet on Saturday. I have been involved behind the scenes of National Meets for many years and I think larger events can be judged fairly, using the same system we have now, just on a larger scale. Those people that say it can't be done just don't want to do it.

KEY is getting judges, qualified judges, YOU ALL KNOW THAT, so I'm guessing more effort in that direction is needed, or is already being addressed.

Not to be negative, but at a Buick show a few weeks back, a lady came up to me, and said I'm here to judge. and I don't know anything about such. She went on to say, so help me out. Very nice lady, just didn't have any training, I later learned her hubby was sick, and she was asked to fill in.

I didn't WIN, so can't say I cheated by helping her out, hehe

My honest opinion is LET THE LEADERS OF THE SHOW DO THEIR THING, and let's give them the CREDIT THEY ARE DUE..

Dale in Indy

Dale

Roy,

As a driven class judge at the last two National Meets, I agree with you. Everyone should keep in mind that at our last National Meet, just over 1/3 (98 of the 283 registered cars) were judged under the 400 point system. And, almost 1/2 (137 of the 283 registered cars) were driven and display only. (I lump the Driven class into the non-judged category since there are no score sheets and the driven class judging is basically a pass or fail recognition award). So basically there has been too much focus on 400 point judging at the expense of almost two thirds of the members who attend BCA meets for other reasons.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! OR "Be Judged only if you Judge!"

I am just tired of hearing and reading about how judging is such a hardship on those who judge (walking too far, locating all the cars to be judged, too many cars per judging team, etc. etc.). It seems the BCA never has enough judges to do the job, so one of the best suggestions I have heard is to enlist members who enter their cars for 400 point judging to become judges as part of the class requirements. This will no doubt open a discussion of how some of our older members cannot handle the physical requirements, but I am sure there are still associated clerical jobs, teaching judging, etc. that most anyone who attends a meet could do.

With one judge per car for every car entered, the 400 point cars will always have enough judges, and there should never be a meet where the number of cars limits anything but the size of the venue.

Well said Mark. I've said it myself. If everyone having a car judged got involved in the judging process, each class would be in the range of six cars, so judging on show day would be done in about two hours and everyone could get on with enjoying the show.

Many my good thoughts in this thread, a few controversial items, and mostly civil discussion. I like it.

Rather than information "packets" being mailed to judges for a particular class they sign up to judge, how about a CD? Or might that be a little too advanced for some members? Or at least give them the option of "CD" or "PAPER". Oh . . . and there probably should be "a test" when finished?

I suspect the issue of "judges" is not "warm bodies", but motivated and knowledgeable warm bodies. as Keith alluded to in an earlier post.

I also tend to concur with Roy's comments about judging and the size of the event. A side issue might be that every so often, a special venue CAN be a chance to skip judging for that year, to allow participants to enjoy where they are and the cars that are there, too.

I tend to lean toward the judged show being on Friday, with "The BIG Display" (for the public) on Saturday, with the banquet Saturday evening. To me, there are MANY benefits to that situation, from experience (although the meets I was involved with were NOT that way).

As for show field parking, in the 400 Point Judging area, the vehicles should be parked in their eventual show spot during ALL days. I recall some anxious moments when an owner would park their car (near a friend's car, but in the wrong spot), leave, and nobody knew how to contact them to put their vehicle in a more correct place BEFORE the judging on the next morning. Always some hand-wringing about such things! Although with technology being what it's become, that contact information can be easier to access than in those prior times.

In past times, when I was younger, leaner, and in much better cardiovascular condition, walking across a parking lot to "chase" a particular car that was incorrectly parked didn't bother me, other than the time involved in doing so. NOW that those physical issues have changed, it's more about having the strength and stamina to do that than JUST the time involved. Not to mention the efficiency lost when such vehicles have to be found and verified!

To ensure the show judging happens as it needs to, expeditiously and EFFICIENTLY, adding issues of "chasing cars parked incorrectly" just thwarts the efficiency aspect of things -- period. "Killing the car" in judging sometimes might be necessary, although more time-consuming, as the level of execution of restorations (over-restorations, too) increases with each year. It becomes much more important to remember how the cars were "at the end of the assembly line" rather than "how WE want to like to remember that they SHOULD have been" as the BCA is not supposed to reward "over-restoration" above OEM factory production condition. Which gets back to "originality" rather than "looking better than it should". In some cases, "originality" looks down-right shabby next to an "over-restored" fresh "better than it used to be" restoration.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Roy

I agree that a larger number of cars can be judged. However, there is always a call out for more judges. There always seems to not be enough judges and qualified judges. I wasn't going to judge at Ames because I was just a volunteer, but was asked to and did judge (which got me into some hot water). I think the AACA also has an issue getting enough judges.

Perhaps steps should be taken between Nationals to recruit qualified judges, train them via Bugle articles, which is essentially what Pete does when he runs articles on specific years, and IF registrations come in and some one volunteers to judge, and notes classes they want to judge, then perhaps pre-made packets specific to those years can be mailed to the volunteer.

So, if someone checks off they will judge and puts down a 1st and 2nd choice, send them a packet for those years noting items to consider in judging.

Excellent Idea. I had already started some work on this after a discussion with Pete, as he was still more involved with judging. Put I was unable to get it too far as I had an injury in the spring. However, I see it working if we take the "What do look for when judging one..." items in a packet but only present them just before the judging. I will attempt to gather up more of them, if someone in "Judging' wants to put them together. I do not see how you could make a decision on who will be judging until the day of judging.

John

I don't think there is a need for as many judges on each team, 2 maybe 3 max. I rather have 2 qualified guys on a judging team than 4 or 5 with only a couple of them that really know what they are looking at. Maybe 2 exoerienced judges and a 3rd Greenhorn Judge along for training.

The way I originally understood the number of judging team members was that one member would judge one aspect of the vehicle, with others doing the others. I saw that as a consistency issue AND knowing who did what, on the particular team. But what I sometimes saw "on the field" was one judge that might get ahead of the others on their team, for one reason or another. IF the judging duties were spread between 2 or 3 judges, with a certain order in what they judged on each vehicle (as in "flow" from front to back, for example) might speed things up a little. Rather than jumping around from one end to the other in their judging activities . . . "the flow" of things. Perhaps three judges . . . one for "exterior", one for "interior", and one for "underhood & underbody".

To me, "Judging Instructions" of what orientation to use when doing the judging can be more of an overview of how to perform the judging function. BUT if a judge has experience with a particular model year and body style of vehicle, I suspect the "know what they're looking at" factor might be higher than one without that experience/knowledge for the particular vehicles.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

From my experience of several meets, I don't think its more efficient to have less Judges per class. But I still am wondering why judging could not be done on a first come, first served basis, throughout the meet? There is the pre-inspection phase of the process, Why couldn't there be a set of one or two teams available during time slots before the Saturday Show, for early judging. I remember someone said that if this was done then some cars might never make it to the show field on Saturday, and that is a possibility. But it could also be a practice that if the car is not present on the show field on Show day, then the award can't be delivered at the banquet.

But more importantly, first time judges could be encouraged , or required, to participate for an hour or two as observers of the process, and that would go a long way to breaking the ice for their own first judging experience plus give them the chance to see how the experienced judge is expected to perform. Also it may allow for placement of a mirror on the ground that the cars could drive over for those judges who are , ahem, having trouble bending down and getting back up ( yes, my own hand is raised for that) ...

You need to have consistency in judging within each class, although the cars are not being judged against each other different judges judge and score things differently. This could easily result in discrepancies such as one team judging a lesser car more leniently and a more stringent team judging a better car more stringently thus the lesser car receiving a higher award. I have seen this scenario happen at shows where random teams judge throughout the show.

When there are judges for each section of the judging sheet (and experience and observation prove this) the judges do their thing with there assigned area, and when done with their section they look over the rest of the car as well and point things out. I don't think anyone can argue that it doesn't happen. This negates the efficiency and need for a judge for each category and slows down the entire process.

Let's face it, when you are knowledgable on the cars you are looking at, you can walk down the line and in a few minutes have the cars pretty well pegged in order. I will stick to a 2 man team and a trainee would be optimal.

You can have all the judges you would ever need but if they don't know the cars the system fails. All the training on earth at the meets is really not teaching a judge what they really need to know to do it right, it is to broad. Only experience with the cars and a willingness to know what's right with the cars will make a good judge. That is a flaw in any judging system that is near impossible to overcome. That guy that consistently brings low scoring cars due to inaccurate and incorrect items is never going to make a good judge as it is obvious they have little regard fir the system or the willingness to take the road to learning whats right.

Edited September 18, 2014 by my3buicks (see edit history)

Regarding your last paragraph Keith, it isn't merely about correctness in terms of how someone does their own car. I've done a lot of thinking along the lines of what is a point worth for my cars. Those small correctness details may turn out to be expensive to move the car up a level. That isn't what everyone wants for their own cars. That doesn't imply they don't have the knowledge, skill, nor correct attitude for the judging process.

As as for the judging teams, the captain is typically the most experienced judge. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily make them the most knowledgeable nor the best team leader nor the best ambassador to owners of their class. It merely means they've done it more often. In addition, the newest judges are often younger, so they are typically given the task of judging the chassis. Personally, I think the exterior is considerably easier assignment. There are a lot of correctness details on the chassis, to say nothing of a tendency to accumulate rust and dirt. It is relatively easy to examine the exterior and discuss with the team captain issues like colour or whether a side mirror is authentic when the captain can easily walk past and take a look. More experienced judges "paid their dues" judging the chassis as prior meets so feel it is ok to let the newbie get down on a knee. Short of using lifts or renting a pit, I'm not sure we will ever address this satisfactorily.

As as with many things, for each individual involved, we are likely to get a different opinion.

Might the younger "trainee" judges draw the chassis to judge as their joints still have the "designed" range of motion . . . still working?

I suspect that, regardless of which vehicle section is judged, there will be some nuances peculiar to particular vehicles that need to be known about. For example, knowing the handful of additional chrome moldings and fancier grille for a '70 Skylark Custom, compared to the '70 Skylark which doesn't have them, might help determine "a real car" rather than a "clone".

Although the BCA 400 Point Judging System is not designed to be a "concours" judging situation. Just "end of the assembly line" originality . . . with a few "accepted changes". Still, though, some DO restore their vehicles to concours standards rather than BCA-specific standards.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

I don't think there is a need for as many judges on each team, 2 maybe 3 max. I rather have 2 qualified guys on a judging team than 4 or 5 with only a couple of them that really know what they are looking at. Maybe 2 exoerienced judges and a 3rd Greenhorn Judge along for training.

YES!