Title for an old car ... one man's adventure

My friend Greg acquired a very early horseless carriage many years ago, and since it's of the high wheel variety, slow, and was only on the road occasionally, never titled it...but in our older years we start thinking about our family, and how they'll handle vehicles with no title....so he started the long process of acquiring one through one of the advertised services....apparently that service had a bad experience in Virginia at some point, so now the trail goes not through Alabama, but rather through Maine, and eventually Florida, for a title....not cheap...and here's his story: [comments are mine in brackets]

" Here's my story. Thirty years ago I bought an antique truck at an estate sale. Second owner. It came without a title. In fact the vehicle was so old that it predated when my state began issuing titles. Half hearted attempts at obtaining a title were met with only scorn at the DMV. So for these many years it has seen use only sparingly. And the fact that it has a top speed of 18 MPH limited it to an annual Christmas tree run and a few very local car shows.

Well I'm old enough now to be finishing things I started as far back as high school. Knowing that a clear title would be a factor when my heirs consider Ebay, I began the title death march.

I approached the DMV through a "mom and pop" agency [Virginia has satellite offices that can do minor transactions] thinking they would be sympathetic. A couple mornings off work resulted in nothing but futility. "You'll have to go Full Service" they said. A Mega DMV or I could take a hike to my state capital "Headquarters". Yeah right. [Richmond, although I have read of success there]

I had, for another of my fleet, resorted to an out of state title company. Worked very well and not too expensive. Returning to them for this one, I was rebuked. They wouldn't deal with my state.

However, they would refer me to another titling company in a different far away state. I started the process.

Expensive by about three times. Got to do it. Paper work came, things to be notarized. More paperwork came for verification of the VIN number either by an officer of the law or a used car salesman. (?!)

Got that done and then came a notice that I would have to send more money to cover the sales tax on the value I claimed. I did. We're in this over a thousand dollars now to sign over my vehicle to some holding company.

Then this week a document arrived . The holding company was selling me my truck. Their title had been issued in yet another far away state. Off to yet another local DMV where I was told I would get quick and curteous service. I did up until the clerk said "Oh no, I can't do this. You'll have to go Full Service". HAL, the DMV computer deemed my vehicle's four digit serial number "untitle-able".

I went to another DMV, a Full Service type. Line out the door, I finally got a number and waited my turn. And waited my turn.... finally called, I presented the documents to the clerk and she didn't understand why the problem. Until she tried it. HAL again. Repeated tries to "Headquarters" by telephone and finally assisted, the clerk eventually told me "They'll have to resolve this . Take a seat because I don't know how long it will take."

An hour and a half later she called me to the counter. They were adding a suffix to the serial number. Nothing that made any sense, just a letter to screw up anybody else who tries to match the title with the serial number plate. Don't care. For another hundred and fifty dollars I have the truck titled in my name and in my state.

I realize there are those who maintain that if it doesn't have a title, they won't buy . That's ok if you can pass it up. But if it's a family heirloom, or that two lever T or undiscovered Thomas Flyer , sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. "

And yet, here in Sunny SoCal, I could have had a title, in my hand, in a day or two, for about a hundred bucks

Dave

Back in the 80's I kept driving past this field and there was an old car in there. Finally stopped one day and found it to be a 1947 Packard 4 door sedan. Well found out who owned the property, made him a $150 offer for the car and that night returned with a friend and his tow truck and pulled it out. Turned out to be a rare bird a 1947 Packard Taxi Cab. Anyway had no title but in the glove box was a 1960 registration from North Carolina, so I went to my local tag office and spoke to a lady there who was very helpful. She told me to send a registered letter to the last known owner at the last known address and when it came back undeliverable, bring in the unopened envelope and she would handle it. I received a title for it in about a months time. It always depends on who you get as the clerk at the DMV and also your attitude. Getting frustrated and hostile will never work.

In Virginia, don't rule out going the "abandoned car" title route. Cost, a bargain price of $25 last time I checked. Do this only if you are sure someone else cannot come up with convincing documentation that they are the rightful owner, as the vehicle will appear for a period (25 days?) on a publicized list of "abandoned" vehicles. Google "Virginia abandoned car title" for info and forms.

Possession is still 9/10ths of the law and it can work for you if you are patient. I was once given a 1935 Sears utility trailer that came from a southern state that did not issue titles back when. When the owner moved to Virginia he was permitted to register the trailer but was not given a title. Then, after I was given the trailer the DMV DID give me a title because it had been registered in Va. for a period of time. Maybe they were just in a good mood that day? naw.....

David, does your friend want a job? He seems to have a knack for getting titles quickly, inexpensively, and without a lot of headaches.

/I'm only kind of joking. The Ohio DMV is a nightmare to deal with, even when you have a friendly in the office.

Getting frustrated and hostile will never work.

I've noticed that. I can spot the hostile and frustrated ones from the door. If they ever gave classes in body language to motor vehicle clerks I would loose my feeling of security.

Last year I went to the DMV one mile from my house. I walked in the door to be greeted by a gruff command and looked at an obvious row of four hostile and frustrated women. They could have been hanging from the rafters with leathery wings wrapped around them, like a bunch of lawyers, and they would not have looked less formidable.

Casting convenience to the wind, I turned right around, left, and drove to the next county fifteen miles away where I saw pleasant attitudes and enjoyed a smooth transaction.

A lot, and I mean a whole lot, of people have forgotten or never learned all that body language stuff from the 1970's. My dog whimpers and crawls on his belly when we are near the DMV.

Bernie

My friend and I were discussing titles again today. He stated that, with his luck, there are probably headlines in the newspaper about National Title Amnesty Day, when anyone can get a title for anything that one day...now that he's had his experience.

I told him that was as likely as walking in the local DMV and seeing all nine counters in service with smiling persons waiting to be helpful......

The Ohio DMV is a nightmare to deal with, even when you have a friendly in the office.

Man, You've got that right. I stroll into the office with my "out of state" inspection, and my paperwork. First comes the "page flip". Nothing obvious, so next comes the bi-focal glasses and the index finger, line for line, and more page flips. Finally the "Do you need this today?". Gee, I don't know. I've already spent three days, and $20 in gas, I guess one more day, and another trip to the office, really isn't going to make much difference. Then, the inevitable phone call the next morning. "Good morning, this is Vera at the title office. We found a discrepancy in your paperwork". ARRRRHHHGGG!

About 10 years ago I bought a1961 Studebaker grain truck from the original owner in Georgia. At that time Georgia did not issue titles but I did obtain a signed and notarized bill of sale and his registration cards. Had to go to a meeting in Williamsburg and stopped at DMV on my way home. Clerk told me I could not get a Virginia title without one from Georgia. I gave her documents from the Georgia DMV website showing no title was issued and my paperwork. She went to the back and got the manager, he reviewed my documents and told her to issue a title.

Intoday's on-line world you can determine what you need before ever heading to DMV.

About 10 years ago I bought a1961 Studebaker grain truck from the original owner in Georgia. At that time Georgia did not issue titles but I did obtain a signed and notarized bill of sale and his registration cards. Had to go to a meeting in Williamsburg and stopped at DMV on my way home. Clerk told me I could not get a Virginia title without one from Georgia. I gave her documents from the Georgia DMV website showing no title was issued and my paperwork. She went to the back and got the manager, he reviewed my documents and told her to issue a title.

Intoday's on-line world you can determine what you need before ever heading to DMV.

Another possible option: If you know someone trustworthy in a state that does not issue titles for antique vehicles (as in your case, GA), "sell" the car to them for a nominal fee, buy it back from them, get bill of sale, and then the state DMV (Virginia in this case) may issue a title from the bill of sale. This worked for us about 10 years ago in the case of a Model A being built up from parts (thus never titled).

How do hot rodders building a car that is not titled get a title?

Here's our current frustration. In 2003 a customer of ours from VA bought a new 24 ft Haulmark enclosed trailer. He used it a few times but had nowhere to store it so he stored it at our shop and we used it for storage. Fast forward to last month...No longer needing the trailer and with his health failing he agrees to sell it to us at a very favorable price but he can't seem to locate the title so he went to VA DMV with the VIN and the actual Permanent Trailer tag which they issued to him in 2003 and which is a "pay one time and it's good forever" plate and asked for a duplicate title. DMV runs the VIN and finds no record whatsoever that the trailer was ever registered in VA. Turns out VA purges their trailer titles and VIN info after 10 years. They also could not trace the Permanent Trailer Tag to any particular vehicle or owner. We tried tracing the VIN in VA, PA as well as MD with the same result, no record of that VIN found. OK, we'll title it in Maine....no such luck. Maine requires a copy of the original title for any trailer weighing over 3000# empty. I even had the PA State Police Motor Vehicle Fraud unit try to trace it, same result, no record found. Next idea....call Haulmark...no good, titles are generated by the original dealer.....Ah hah, now we're getting somewhere. But no, the dealer is long since out of business. So here we are. Without a title # or a Registration Card, neither of which my customer can find (remember it was a one time registration with no annual renewal necessary), this trailer officially doesn't exist even though I can see it out my office window as I type this. Alabama title service, same thing, they require some proof of ownership which without a title, title number, traceable VIN or Registration Card we can't supply. Now someone is sure to reply "just get a Mechanics Lien on it and sell it for storage". As strange as it sounds, in PA a Mechanic's Lien does not apply to motor vehicles or trailers. We also cannot sell it for storage charges without a court order and the services of an attorney. Not sure it makes sense to spend $1000 to get a court directed title for a trailer worth $2000 but that may be our only solution.

Also, according to the PA State Police, the old purple PA Antique Car plates are untraceable. Should you be stopped the onus is on you to prove that the plate is registered to you and is on the vehicle it was issued for.

When RI (where I live) introduced titles in the late 70s we were told this would be the end of stolen cars... "because without a title, no one could sell one." I guess the geniuses in the legislature never heard of "parts." Here you cannot get a title for anything more than 10 years old. They simply will not issue one. I had a prolonged problem with PA on this very issue over the sale of a 1905 Cadillac that was only resolved when a dolt in RI called a dolt in PA to tell them so. It seems astonishing to me that there isn't a digest of state registration laws that can be consulted, but perhaps that is asking too much. I know that here, I have the impression that every otherwise unemployable relative of a state official finds a job at the registry of motor vehicles. Oh... and if you are shipping a car out of the country the DMV will provide an officially certified letter in lieu of a title...but they won't do it if the sale is in the US to a title requiring state.

I'm a small government kind of guy but vehicle titling and transfer is one area where nationwide laws might be good, assuming they take into consideration the things that can happen over 100+ years.

In Virginia, a hot rodder can get a registration by calling it a specially constructed or reconstructed vehicle, show pictures and documentation of the build process, and show receipts for major components bought for the build. In most cases the State will issue a title using motor number or chassis number for VIN.....seems you could do the same for an old car original "build", but buying parts at Hershey doesn't usually generate many receipts!

The problem with a national standard is that the Gubment would, probably, adopt the Draconian laws of PA as their model. As I have stated before, California may be the Land of Fruits and Nuts and we have Governor Moonbeam in office again, but our DMV is relatively easy to deal with. I have never, not once, encountered the anecdotal angry or incompetent clerk that everyone else seems to deal with each time. I have never, not once, failed to walk out of a CA DMV with whatever I walked in for. I have never, not once, paid through the nose to get my papers in order. Your results may vary, of course

The problem with a national standard is that the Gubment would, probably, adopt the Draconian laws of PA as their model. As I have stated before, California may be the Land of Fruits and Nuts and we have Governor Moonbeam in office again, but our DMV is relatively easy to deal with. I have never, not once, encountered the anecdotal angry or incompetent clerk that everyone else seems to deal with each time. I have never, not once, failed to walk out of a CA DMV with whatever I walked in for. I have never, not once, paid through the nose to get my papers in order. Your results may vary, of course

Exactly the gov will fallow some state guidelines like they do for pharmaceutical’s using NYs laws. There will never be common sense in government. <o:p></o:p>

I have dealt with Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Ohio DMVs to get a title. They all have their quirks but they also have their loopholes. Last year I got a title for a 1934 olds but not by going straight to the DMV. I asked other old car collectors in my area how they were doing it first. I was told to go get an old judge who is still practicing law to do my paper work then present that paper work to the current county judge and have him tell the DMV to issue a title to me for a 1934 olds. When I went to the DMV with my paper work they tried arguing with me saying that there were not enough digits in the vin. I smiled and said this is all the digits they used in 1934 and that the judge ruled that I am to be given this title. Funny thing is that the computer didn’t really care at all she entered the numbers and out popped my title. The story about not enough digits does not apply to issuing a title it does however make it hard to trace an old title because the computer won’t search for less than 17 digits. <o:p></o:p>

when i lived in California it was easy to get titles for vintage vehicles simply use title service, less than $200 and done! Now i'm back in washington state and the new laws make it a pain!

What new laws are you talking about in WA? I'm not aware of anything worse than before and it wasn't anything worse than CA that I encountered.

you have to have complete running car that has been inspected by the state patrol BEFORE they will let you apply for a bonded title! never was that way before and this info was given to me by a friend 2 days ago! i had been doing the 3 year bonded titles for 35 years but no more, no title no sale! bum deal!

I guess that would be a problem without a title. Personally, I'd never buy a car without a title.

I guess that would be a problem without a title. Personally, I'd never buy a car without a title.

That's an easy attitude to have when dealing with a normal old car, one that came off an assembly line with thousands of others like it. But I hardly think its a one size fits all belief. Last year I purchased a custom bodied prewar Packard, believed to be one of only ten built and very likely the only survivor. It didn't have a title. Fact is I was going to buy the car anyway, because I wanted it and there was no looking around for another one. But I figured it would be easier for the owner to get a replacement title than it would be for me to try to get one, so I made the seller getting a replacement title a condition of the sale. He agreed and got a replacement title. Then I bought the car. Again, I would have bought the car anyway, but I'm surprised more people don't try going the route of making the seller obtaining a replacement title a condition of the sale. Of course I'm sure there will be stubborn people who refuse to do it, but I would think its at least worth a try.

so I made the seller getting a replacement title a condition of the sale.

How would you enforce this? Would you hold back a percentage of the selling price until the seller produced the title? It might be difficult to find a seller who'd do that.

I have not yet purchased a vehicle without a valid title. I guess there's always a first time, but "woe be unto me" if I ever weaken and buy a vehicle that does not have a valid title.

Cheers,

Grog

I've bought about 200 collector cars over the last 50 years, and only a handful didn't have titles.

When you have a chance to buy the remains of a 1906 Autocar and a 1910 Model 16 Buick, both of which had a little unfortunate high temperature experience, and both of which are fairly rare, then a title doesn't mean much.

Now that Mr. Buick is back to being a car again, the title is taking on more importance.

How would you enforce this? Would you hold back a percentage of the selling price until the seller produced the title?

No enforcement was necessary. After he procured a title, I bought the car. I even offered to let him add whatever fees were associated with him obtaining a replacement title to the purchase price of the car. I figured that would help make him more open to the idea. I'll also admit that knowing that he had been trying to sell the car for over year probably worked in my favor as well.

The best thing to do is contact a local parole officer. They should have a reasonably priced part time consultant on their list. When all the honest attempts to resolve a fairly simple problem, it is time to bring in a professional. I think the title jumping class is held by most inmates right after reruns. of The Bob Newhart Show and just before lights out.

Find a criminal. You'll have it registered tomorrow. Oh..... wait...... that's who we were being protected from.

Bernie

The best thing to do is contact a local parole officer. They should have a reasonably priced part time consultant on their list. When all the honest attempts to resolve a fairly simple problem, it is time to bring in a professional. I think the title jumping class is held by most inmates right after reruns. of The Bob Newhart Show and just before lights out.

Find a criminal. You'll have it registered tomorrow. Oh..... wait...... that's who we were being protected from.

Bernie

Methinks Bernie might be funning us, and obtaining a title utilizing the nefarious element in our society is neither necessary nor recommended....

DOH! Typical new guy response!

Yep Dude but it's in fun and what makes the Forum entertaining , educational, and downright....yep, fun again!

Although a little humor is hard to do in email or online, it helps the frustration. The idea is that "the system" has so many checks in place to protect people from criminals the honest people can't do simple things in government or business. I can guarantee you that one of my banks has had more success at keeping me out of my account than keeping criminals away.

I can see myself standing at the DMV with a handful of documents for a vehicle I purchased from an estate of the deceased and the clerk pointing to a missing signature line. A criminal once told me the correct answer is "Oh! He's out in the car. I'll be right back."

Bernie

How do hot rodders building a car that is not titled get a title?

Simple-they buy a title from a "title guy"

more ways then one to skin a cat and not everyone is interested in dealing with dmv and their hoops.................

BTW- trailer reg can be easily obtained in Maine from out of state-for the fella from PA......................

How do hot rodders building a car that is not titled get a title?

Simple-they buy a title from a "title guy"

more ways then one to skin a cat and not everyone is interested in dealing with dmv and their hoops.................

BTW- trailer reg can be easily obtained in Maine from out of state-for the fella from PA......................

If only that were true. For trailers weighing over 3000# empty Maine requires a copy of the out of state title or a Registration Card as proof of ownership before they will issue a Maine title.

Quote, " How do hot rodders building a car that is not titled get a title? "

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_title_a_hot_rod#Purchasing_an_undocumented_vehicle

http://www.massrmv.com/rmv/dmanual/chapter_6.pdf

The frame seems to be the most important part of a car by RMV standards.

If it has an original manufacturers one, you must use the VIN.

I would interpet this as; If you have a home made frame, you are the "non automotive manufactuer"

and you must submit your own statement of origin.

Be prepaired to possabily meet latest FED standards and 2014 sales taxes.

I have been trying to understand the law but I am still confused. So far in my calls to the MA.State Police, MA.RMV, RMV title div. and the Local DMV, none of them have never heard of the "Street Rod Law".

New York State doesn't title cars earlier than 1973. Those get a registration stub. The last four collector cars and two newer ones have been insured and registered in my name as soon as I bought them. That assures my legal ownership and I am not sinking money into a car that legally may belong to another person.

By expediting the transaction I am pretty sure the seller will still be alive in case a question comes up. That happened once with a gas pump. I made a tailgate cash payment and said I would stop over and pick it up the next day. That night he died. The family inflated the value of the pump, that was lying in a hedgerow, and refused to let me take it.

Expect the unexpected.

Bernie

Everything I've been able to find about buying a car in Wisconsin that has no title points to a very difficult, if not impossible, situation.

I found a way to get a replacement title which requires a bill of sale at a minimum.

Purely out of curiosity I'm going to email our DMV and ask how a car from NY State with no title would be handled here.

I just saw this ad for an auction of abandoned cars in Lancaster, Pa. There's no value anywhere but it states all cars come with a title branded,"formerly abandoned". It assures you that if you flip it you'll get a new title in two weeks. Could it possibly be that easy? http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=2224897&kwd=Model%20A%20Ford%2C%20antique%20cars&zip=&category=0&utm_source=azemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts

Like many states NY uses a transferable registration in lieu of a title on older cars. You need BOTH a bill of sale AND the signed transferable registration in order to register the vehicle. To register the car in NY you will also need the seller to fill out and sign a special sales tax form certifying the sale price. At one point in time this had to be signed and notarized by all those in the chain of ownership back to the last registered owner ....

Every state is different.

I just saw this ad for an auction of abandoned cars in Lancaster, Pa. There's no value anywhere but it states all cars come with a title branded,"formerly abandoned". It assures you that if you flip it you'll get a new title in two weeks. Could it possibly be that easy? http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=2224897&kwd=Model%20A%20Ford%2C%20antique%20cars&zip=&category=0&utm_source=azemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alerts

It is that easy in PA if you are a salvor (a company authorized to tow abandoned vehicles). The registered owner of the vehicle must be notified that their vehicle will be auctioned at such a place and time if they don't pick it up and pay past due storage and towing charges. If they fail to show then the vehicle must be auctioned in an advertised auction. Notice the use of the term "branded title". That means that forever after the PA title will be stamped FORMERLY ABANDONED much like ex police car titles are branded. Again the vehicle must have a traceable VIN to obtain a fresh PA title.

The question I have is: What happens to liens on a vehicle (a car loan, for example) when the vehicle is auctioned after being abandoned? Is there an online data base to check for liens by VIN before bidding?