New here, several RIV gen I/performance Q's

Hello all,

I've long admired the Riviera gen I, II, and Boatail, and am considering the purchase of a '63. I'll be seeing the 1st candidate on Sunday. The car is a mild custom (pearl paint/wheels/suspension), and I'm not sure the direction I will take the car if I buy it, as some of my questions will illustrate.

I've spent the best part of the day reading the forum here, very informative and entertaining. I did learn the answers to some of my questions, but, to begin, if someone might point me to a thread aimed at a 1st time/ 1st gen Riviera buyer and what to look for in terms of potential issues specific to this model, it would be greatly appreciated.

My second inquiry is a bit more specific... I have a new build, highly modified '87 Grand National powertrain. (Full roller/forged bottom end/GN-1 heads/big turbo & intercooler/alcohol injection) with a fresh manual valvebody/transbrake TH400/4000 stall converter. I'm wondering if anyone here has transplanted a GN engine into a Gen I, and if so, is there info available on the swap? (I've not found anything via Google search) I did find info here about a TH400 swap which was helpful, but, obviously, this would be the tip of the iceberg. (I'd dump the converter for a lower stall and swap in an automatic-shift valve body and I have the computer/related electronics to control the engine.)

The above is one option I'd consider if the swap would be a reasonable project. (A relative term, I know.)

Another question along the performance line would be the viability of a 455 Stage I swap.

These options aside, I may just enjoy the car as a cruiser and forgo the wild performance upgrades. I do like the 'restomod' pathos, and applying those mods to something more interesting than a Chevy or Ford appeals. The intention would be for a fun driver, not a show car, I'd want it to be as stock-appearing as possible. (No wheel tubs, etc.)

As an aside, while driving to work one day several years ago, I was passed by a '63/4 Riviera that had been given the GN blackout treatment and the car was striking. (The car was headed the opposite direction in traffic and I had a class awaiting me or I'd have chased it down for closer inspection. I never saw the car again.) That car inspired the idea for a Riv/GN mechanical marriage, and I've mulled the possibilities ever since.

Thanks for your patience in reading my lengthy first post and any information you may offer. Nice to be here.

Mark, thank you. I plan to join the ROA.

As far as the google recommendation, I may not be using the correct keywords, but I've tried several google searches for swapping a 3.8 turbo/GN engine into a 1st gen Riv, and come up with nothing. I'm hoping, however, that this doesn't mean it hasn't been done, and am still wondering if someone here may have some info. I've yet to Google the 455 question as this just came to mind today, but I'll try that.

There is a guy down in Texas I think that did the GN swap. I found him while looking at doing a potential LS swap. He is on a couple of forums I think but I can't remember which ones. I'll see if I can find him again.

Look for my comments in red in your original post

Hello all,

I've long admired the Riviera gen I, II, and Boatail, and am considering the purchase of a '63. I'll be seeing the 1st candidate on Sunday. The car is a mild custom (pearl paint/wheels/suspension), and I'm not sure the direction I will take the car if I buy it, as some of my questions will illustrate.

I've spent the best part of the day reading the forum here, very informative and entertaining. I did learn the answers to some of my questions, but, to begin, if someone might point me to a thread aimed at a 1st time/ 1st gen Riviera buyer and what to look for in terms of potential issues specific to this model, it would be greatly appreciated.

My second inquiry is a bit more specific... I have a new build, highly modified '87 Grand National powertrain. (Full roller/forged bottom end/GN-1 heads/big turbo & intercooler/alcohol injection) with a fresh manual valvebody/transbrake TH400/4000 stall converter. I'm wondering if anyone here has transplanted a GN engine into a Gen I, and if so, is there info available on the swap? (I've not found anything via Google search) I did find info here about a TH400 swap which was helpful, but, obviously, this would be the tip of the iceberg. (I'd dump the converter for a lower stall and swap in an automatic-shift valve body and I have the computer/related electronics to control the engine.) I think there is one person who considered this in the past. But he hasn't been heard from in a long time. No reasons. Perhaps he found out it just wasn't meant to be. A first generation Riviera would be a whole lot heavier than the Regal/GN/GNX body. Don't know what you'd gain. To move these cars, you need lots of torque, not horsepower.

The above is one option I'd consider if the swap would be a reasonable project. (A relative term, I know.)

Another question along the performance line would be the viability of a 455 Stage I swap. I've seen this tried once. The height of the big block caused the builder to weld the motor to the frame. If you're considering a big block, go with a '67 or later. Everything is in the right place.

These options aside, I may just enjoy the car as a cruiser and forgo the wild performance upgrades. Excellent idea I do like the 'restomod' pathos, and applying those mods to something more interesting than a Chevy or Ford appeals. The intention would be for a fun driver, not a show car, I'd want it to be as stock-appearing as possible. (No wheel tubs, etc.)A 'dressed' nailhead can be a really good looking engine and the low end torque makes for a really good cruiser

As an aside, while driving to work one day several years ago, I was passed by a '63/4 Riviera that had been given the GN blackout treatment and the car was striking. (The car was headed the opposite direction in traffic and I had a class awaiting me or I'd have chased it down for closer inspection. I never saw the car again.) That car inspired the idea for a Riv/GN mechanical marriage, and I've mulled the possibilities ever since.

Thanks for your patience in reading my lengthy first post and any information you may offer. Nice to be here.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/64-riviera-hybrid.315816/

www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+riviera+t+type

This is a link that is early in his build. Not sure how it ever turned out.

I don't think the 3.8 turbo would be a good idea. The 455 might work though as it doesn't lack for torque. One question comes to mind though...have you thought of amping up the nailhead and seeing what it can do? There have been several nailheads lately that have been turboed and they have history of being supercharged by hot rodders from their inception to overcome the lack of breathing i suppose. The nailhead seems to be a real stable platform to start with.

Ed, thank you. I Googled the 455 into a Riv gen I and came up with several hits, a couple that you were involved in, in fact. I see that's a problematic swap.

I've done some pretty radical builds in the past, but I was younger/pre-retirement and don't plan to go back to work to fund a radical resto-mod as I'm seeing this would be. I have the GN and a stroker-motored/NOS Corvette that languish in storage, mostly, my adrenalin injections coming from new ZX-14 these days. I'm sure my wife would agree that as it comes to a Riviera, I'd best leave the nailhead.

That said... think I'll study up on the potential in that nailhead... I'm retired, not dead, after all

Good point, devildog. This should make the purists throw up in their cornflakes

Thanks raprom, I'm thinking that motor best stay in my GN now... I do wonder how his build worked out, he sounded pretty confident, but that was an old thread...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/64-riviera-hybrid.315816/

www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+riviera+t+type

This is a link that is early in his build. Not sure how it ever turned out.

He posted here several times. An Air Force engineer in Colorado Springs. Haven't heard from him in about a year, but he was not giving up on his '64.

"...if someone might point me to a thread aimed at a 1st time/ 1st gen Riviera buyer and what to look for in terms of potential issues specific to this model, it would be greatly appreciated."

Hi John,

I see you're in SW US but that doesn't mean the Rivs you are looking at were always there. So first and foremost, look for rust - everything else is secondary. Where? The rear window (a new 'drop in design for '63) was notorious for leaking, not only into the trunk, but pretty much rotting out the small panel between the rear window and the deck lid. Ed Raner can attest to that. Bring magnets, magnets, magnets! And a high-powered flashlight. I bought a '63 that spent all its life in WA state but was pretty pampered and remained in one family for almost 50 years. I covered every square inch of it, top and bottom, with a set of strong magnets, and looked out for any "recent" undercoating. I lifted trunk mats, carpets, and used my nose to detect any mildew odors. I still can't believe it, but the first one I looked at was 99% rust-free and well under $10K but that was due to a blown trans. About the one area you may NOT find rust is near the transmission, since Dynaflows tend to rustproof that area simply by leaking ATF. So regardless of how you go - stock, mild custom, or on the wild side - rust, or a properly done rust repair, is the first thing to look for, IMO. Happy hunting and welcome.

Thank you, Jan. Good advice, the relatively new paint may hide a multitude of sins. Had to laugh at the Dynaflow corrosion protection...

WHOA!!!! Want to talk about a car from the SW with pounds of bondo hiding a mulititude of sins, just call me. I'm financially into it now where to the point where I'd have a nice car on the street rather than one in primer with no interior had I of purchased a well researched car in the first place.

Man, that nailhead with a blower is pretty neat, but i'm not much into the whine of the blowers myself. I also don't care for the look for some reason. The hot rod side of me screams that it is a blower and that i should grow some balls. The aesthetic in me thinks it kind of destroys the look. If i was going to put a supercharger on it i would have to go with one that would fit under the hood. That is another reason i have been looking at a turbo setup that will fit under the hood. I don't want to cut into the hood at all if i don't have to. I would like to make mine go a little better, but i want to keep it as sleeper-ish as i can. I think i would have a tough time explaining to the wife about why it needed a blower. I think i will take my chances with a turbo that she may not even notice...at least for a while. I have already explained/justified the fast-ez efi setup, but it is a bit too soon to start talking about forced air. I have been prepping her though as she is a big audi/vw fan. I have already talked a little about the turbo setups on those cars and the benefits, so maybe next year:o

Devildog, totally agree. I never got into seeing a 671 protruding through the hood of most anything, excepting a gasser-style shoebox or Willis, etc. Looks freakish on the Riv, but, as you say, took some nads to do that. There are a lot of cars I enjoy admiring from a distance.

Owning a highly modded GN made me a believer in hair dryers. Make that work on a nailhead and you wouldn't be unhappy with the power, that's for certain. That said, tuning a turbo car is a lifetime commitment, even with computer-controlled fuel injection and timing. My wife and I refer to the GN as "The Black Hole" for it's ability to suck cash into it's gravitational pull, never to be seen again. Before I retired I had a kind of last hurrah and overbuilt two cars. By that I mean, they make too much power to hook up on the street, it's self-defeating. The high-hp modern cars can do it with all the electronic driving aids, but a high hp turbo car without them is explosive when the boost comes on. With the tire size limitations of an old Riv, seems 450-500 hp would be more than plenty, and after doing some reading up after I made my original post here, I see the nailhead is well capable of that in a naturally aspirated state. And since it's all about the torque, wouldn't require a huge lumpy cam to get there. Have you done any performance mods on the car to date? Read of someone who comes well-recommended for headwork on the nailheads and can get you in the range I mention above.

My original post contained a momentary lapse of reason, thanks to everyone for sharing your gearhead's Ritalin... I'm feeling much better now.

No i have not gotten to the engine itself yet. By the time i am done doing bodywork, interior, and paint it will be time to take a look at that. I already have a plan for the transmission, but i may just rebuild the current one and drive it a while. Eventually i want a 200 r4 behind it, but that looks to be a bit more costly and something i may have to shelf for a while. I am looking toward a engine refresh with rings and seals and likely reworking the heads, then trying to install a fast ez-efi system on it. At least that is the rough flowchart. I'm sure i will hit a snag and have to rework it at some point.

Right now i am cleaning up my welding from the underside of the car to get it ready for por-15 on the inside. i replaced 6 of the 8 available floor pan sections and worked the trunk with a couple of patches. I am kind of working it from the inside out. When i am done with that i will install the carpet from Clark's and take care of the upholstery. I have yet to pull the windows out, and i am afraid this is going to be the worst part of this whole thing. The window seals were leaking front and back, thus the water damage in the trunk and floors. The metal work on the rear channel/shelf area is going to suck big time, but that is coming soon.

About the heads though, i would love to get someone lined up to rework the heads. If i could get 400hp/500torque or numbers around that area i probably wouldn't even be considering the turbo option. i was basically looking at that as a way to force feed the motor and bypass the limitations of the head somewhat, but i hear what you are saying about the management of such a system. I would have the fast-ez efi to help with that in theory, but maybe simple is better.

Wow, you've got your hands full. Good luck with your project. As I've seen, you're not the first to do this, so keep the faith. Sounds like you'll have an awesome car when done.

Here is the thread/head porter I referenced. Sounds promising...

"Carmen Faso in NY does the Nailhead 1.94” intake valve conversion (716-6934090). That is the largest intake valve that will fit next to the exhaust valve in the Nailhead. The intake valves must be unshrouded to get the maximum benefit form this conversion. Air flow at the lower end of the valve lift is greatly improved by this conversion over a stock valve at the same lift, but the larger intake valve intake becomes shrouded by the combustion chamber in the higher lift range of the valve. The shrouding reduces the air flow of the converted valve at higher lift to a level lower then the stock valve at the same lift. Unshrouding the converted intake valve greatly improves the high lift figures, and allows the converted valve to outflow the stock valve throughout the lift range. Unfortunately, unshrouding the converted valve will require removing at least 5cc of material from the combustion chamber. That in turn will drop your compression by at least ½ a point. This means custom pistons or decking the block to maintain the current compression ratio, or giving up compression.

Regardless of using the big valve, any of the following experienced fellows can achieve flow #s from the Nailhead that are similar to a 455 Stage One head with some mild to moderate porting:

Greg Gessler from NJ 908-362-7692

Steve Magnotti from NY 914-962-1325

Jim Burek from TX 915-855-6009

Ed Mosler from CA 559-441-8322 "

Better yet, here's a link to the whole thread http://www.v8buick.com/archive/index.php/t-19122.html

In the Hot Rod magazine dated May 1970, there's an article on "Buick's Experimental Engines." One of the featured engines is a turbocharged nailhead. Consensus is that at the time of development of that engine, GM did not have a transmission strong enough to handle the torque that the turbocharged engine developed. Needless to say, it never went into production.

Ed

.??? That surely explains why so many racers in the NHRA use Powerglides. Even in Hemi cars.

.??? That surely explains why so many racers in the NHRA use Powerglides. Even in Hemi cars.

It's my understanding that while it's a 2-speed transmission, a Dynaflow is not a Powerglide in design?

I've decided to pass on this car and would prefer a '64 or 5 for my purposes. If anyone would be interested, the car is in Seminole, OK rather than Dallas as the ad indicates. I'd be very interested to hear what a member might find upon inspection, the owner was either not well versed in all things automotive or very evasive. It may be the find of the century for all I know, but our conversation sent up red flags. (Didn't know the mileage, knew nothing about the engine's history.) What he did offer is that he's owned the car for a year, it's "rust free" with an original black leather interior with no tears/new carpet. He seemed a very motivated seller, "working 12 hr/7 day weeks and over his midlife crisis."

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/4596086520.html