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rear wheel creak, post-brake work (1st gen)


Wedgewood64

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This is probably obvious to anyone with experience, but searching the forum for "wheel noise" seems to be useless.

I had my 64 on jackstands for about a month as I was replacing all the wheel cylinders and some other assorted stuff, mostly on the front end. Since then, I've got a pretty obtrusive creaking (not squeaking) coming from both of the rear wheels. Er-err, er-err, kind of like an old mattress or sth... one "er-err" cycle = one wheel revolution; so it obviously speeds up as the car does. Makes the noise only under load, of course. Has nothing to do with breaking.

On the rear wheels, I replaced the cylinders and hold-down springs and cleaned things up, that's all.

Any ideas much appreciated!

nick

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Are u sure the sound is coming from the rear wheels? My guess would be that it's your center bearing. Especially so if u had the floor jacks under the frame & the rear axle was hanging. The extreme angle that your driveshaft created by the axle hanging may have ruined your center support bearing? But I'm just guessing…sorry if I wasn't any help

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This is probably obvious to anyone with experience, but searching the forum for "wheel noise" seems to be useless.

I had my 64 on jackstands for about a month as I was replacing all the wheel cylinders and some other assorted stuff, mostly on the front end. Since then, I've got a pretty obtrusive creaking (not squeaking) coming from both of the rear wheels. Er-err, er-err, kind of like an old mattress or sth... one "er-err" cycle = one wheel revolution; so it obviously speeds up as the car does. Makes the noise only under load, of course. Has nothing to do with breaking.

On the rear wheels, I replaced the cylinders and hold-down springs and cleaned things up, that's all.

Any ideas much appreciated!

nick

Make sure the lug nuts are tight and/or remove the wheelcovers and recheck,

Tom Mooney

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Are u sure the sound is coming from the rear wheels? My guess would be that it's your center bearing. Especially so if u had the floor jacks under the frame & the rear axle was hanging. The extreme angle that your driveshaft created by the axle hanging may have ruined your center support bearing? But I'm just guessing…sorry if I wasn't any help

I walked along side the car with my wife driving, and it sure sounded sounded like it was coming from the wheels--esp the right one. (I heard a lesser creak on the left side, but I didn't hear it today...) If it's the center bearing, I could diagnose just by jacking up the rear and putting it in gear, I guess?

FYI, the stands in the rear were under the differential, not the frame, so it didn't hang.

Thanks!

nick

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With the info you've provided, I am now thinking "wheel bearings"…your right. I don't think it's the center bearing anymore

Bearings are not expensive, still available & don't take a whole lot of work. U can pull the axles off & find a shop that is set up to R&R the bearings for u. Replace the seals too, that's the easy part

Wait a minute. Here's an easy check before u check the wheel bearings. Make sure your newly installed brake pads aren't dragging. Back OFF the self tensioners a few rotations at a time. If it doesn't work right away try a few more times. U can always readjust them by hand if they get too loose & the noise is still there.

Edited by RockinRiviDad (see edit history)
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David,

Was thinking of bearings, though the sound is so creaky (er-err er-err...)... I would have expected some other sound. I'll back off the star wheel tomorrow just to make sure that's not the issue (pads aren't new, actually, they were still great so I put them back in).

thanks for your ideas,

nick

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Guest DRM500RUBYZR1

Try driving while riding the brake just a bit.

perhaps the new cylinders have the shoes a little closer to the drum, and like most, there is a high point makingcontact

adjusting the star wheel if you did it as suggested above, would have helped.

hard to imagine a bearing failing out of nowhere at the exact same time..

good luck!

Marty

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Raise the car on a floor jack supporting by the third member. Then put the car in gear, hold your foot gently on the brake, and let the wheels rotate unloaded. Hold one at a time so each gets to spin. You'll hear a bad wheel bearing for sure that way.

Bernie

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Raise the car on a floor jack supporting by the third member. Then put the car in gear, hold your foot gently on the brake, and let the wheels rotate unloaded. Hold one at a time so each gets to spin. You'll hear a bad wheel bearing for sure that way.

Bernie

Having been in the car repair business for 40 years, I've learned that when you do a job to the car and all of the sudden there is a new noise in a wheel that wasn't there before, it has something to do with the repair you just did. The problem with the wheel bearing theory is two fold.....first of all you didn't touch the wheel bearings when you worked on the brakes, and second, the noise the way you describe it is classic brake or loose lug nut noise. In my considerable experience, if you have a bad wheel bearing

if you take it out and drive it at speed you will hear a grinding, roaring or a hum depending on how bad the bearing is. I agree with the previous post theorizing that the drum

on your right rear wheel is a little out of round and you are hearing the new brake shoes hit the high spot on the drum surface when the wheel goes around. Try having the drum

resurfaced and see if the noise goes away. A u-joint on the driveshaft can make a sound like you describe but if it wasn't doing it before your brake job then it is extremely unlikely to be that is the problem. One other comment.....the proper way to diagnose noises is with a stethescope. In the car repair business we deal with

noise complaints on a daily basis and using a stethescope is how we eliminate guesswork and change the right part the first time. My stethescope is the most valuable tool in my toolbox.

Edited by Seafoam65 (see edit history)
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OK, thanks for all the suggestions.

I had already tightened the lug nuts and removed the wheel covers, so that's out.

Today I backed off the adjuster, no change. In addition, the sound wasn't affected by breaking in the first place. And as I noted above, I didn't replace the pads, just the cylinders and springs. Still, I did back it off.

Then I followed Bernie's instructions. When I stop either rear wheel from spinning, I get what I'd call a grinding sound coming from (apparently: no stethescope yet!) the hub area of the stopped wheel. What's it supposed to sound like? (nothing, maybe?). As I noted, same approximate sound from each wheel.

Only other things I can think of to mention 1) the sound goes away when cornering right (otherwise does it forward and reverse); 2) I did in fact do very minor things to the driveshaft (I lubed whatever I could access; and tightened loose bolts on the transmission mount). So technically I didn't touch only the brakes.

Thanks again,

nick

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In lieu of a professional type stethoscope, hold your 1/2" breaker bar against the surface you suspect and put your ear on the other end. Sound travels through solids better than air. You'll be amazed at what you can hear.

Ed

I used to use the breaker bar method, till I bought a stethescope and found out that the noises were ten times louder and easier to pinpoint with the scope.

It's a great tool to invest in. A couple more things to check....make sure the backing plate bolts are all tight on the rear axle housing and check to see if a backing plate might be bent enough to contact the drum in one spot each time there is a revolution of the wheel. Sometimes when working with jacking up the car it is easy to tweak the backing plate on the brakes.

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I'll put the stethescope on my xmas list. I'll try the breaker bar tomorrow to try to pinpoint the noise that it makes when doing the above. But of course neither would work very well for the original creak, since it only makes it when the car's under load moving. I can see me trying to run along side the car w/ a pipe as my wife's driving... I see bruises...

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don't worry about the bruises.....All you have to do is convince the wife to run beside the car while YOU drive!

The reason I brought up the backing plate bolts is that I just had this happen on my 70 Chevelle SS 3 months ago.

It had a noise like you are describing and I discovered that somehow all the backing plate nuts had come loose. I checked

the other side and it was doing the same thing. I can't figure how it happened as they were torqued very tight with lock washers

when I did the restoration in 2006.

Edited by Seafoam65 (see edit history)
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Raise the car on a floor jack supporting by the third member. Then put the car in gear, hold your foot gently on the brake, and let the wheels rotate unloaded. Hold one at a time so each gets to spin. You'll hear a bad wheel bearing for sure that way.

Bernie

After reading Bernie's instructions on bearing noise in another thread, I'm not sure I know what to listen for. I thought I was listening to the wheel that I was stopping (see my other post: it rumbles); but maybe I'm supposed to leave that wheel blocked and go around to the other side and listen to the spinning wheel...

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Just hold one wheel and listen to the other spin. With the car raised it will rattle pretty good when the bearing is bad. If you are holding one wheel still and hear the sounds they can be transmitted through the bad bearing to the axle, through the differential, then into the stationary axle. If it is noisy it needs some attention. Just pull the noisiest side first. Once the axle is out the bad bearing will be obvious.

I don't change rear wheel bearings often. I put one in the '60 Electra about 10 years ago. I knocked the outer race off and used a lathe to "skin" down the inner race instead of pressing it. I had a bearing heater available so the new one slid on and seated nicely.

The rear end lube is probably one of the most neglected items on an old car. When you consider that it is vented and has a lot of mass, the likelihood of condensation build up during years of disuse (they are 50 years old now) is quite high. And they are hard to flush.

The rear cover is not bad to remove and clean out for a change. The front loaders like the early Riviera is harder. You can suck the old fluid out through the fill plug and add fresh. Or, with luck a housing bolt can be removed and will drain. In the past I have taken cars with an unknown service history through 3 changes while driving about 30 miles between each drain and fill.

When I did this for an owner I would save the samples. Black on the first drain, dark amber on the second, and honey gold for the third. Do this when you buy the car.

I have a new to me 1948 Packard in the garage that will get the full treatment before I start driving it in September. It obviously spent the end of the 1980's and the 1990's dormant. It has a stack of restoration shop bills from 2010 and not a whisper about the rear end or transmission juices. It is just a service that is very often overlooked until you drive beside a guard rail and wonder what that Whooka, whooka noise is.

Bernie

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don't worry about the bruises.....All you have to do is convince the wife to run beside the car while YOU drive!

The reason I brought up the backing plate bolts is that I just had this happen on my 70 Chevelle SS 3 months ago.

It had a noise like you are describing and I discovered that somehow all the backing plate nuts had come loose. I checked

the other side and it was doing the same thing. I can't figure how it happened as they were torqued very tight with lock washers

when I did the restoration in 2006.

Heh, that's a funny image.

Checked the backing plate bolts--tight. thanks anyway!

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Bernie: Thanks for this, the diff oil's a good idea--and this is indeed one of those driving-by-a-wall noises that bounces back at you. Maybe I'll try to tackle that sooner than later.

As for bearing noise: OK, when I block the right wheel (the one that is making the creak) and go listen to the other, I hear what I'd say is a minor little rattle--but there's a lot of kind of whooshing, I'm not sure what to listen for. When I block the left wheel and go listen to the right wheel, I'd say there's less rattle than that. So I'm not sure. But once lug nuts are out, brakes are out, what's left? I even switched the two rear wheels, just to make sure it wasn't in the wheel assembly...

Because I can't make it make the noise unless I'm moving, I don't see how even with a stethoscope I'm going to pinpoint the noise (say, between U-joint and bearings)...

Thanks again,

nick

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Four bolts and the bearing is right under your nose. It is an easy job.

Should the bearing fail the axle spline could walk right out of the pinion. That might make the wheel and tire interfere with the quarter panel and the drum could get beyond the brake shoes. Then the wheel cylinder blows apart while you try to stop.

I sold a car like that once. There was no front suspension so the buyer rested the front cross member on his trailer hitch. When they started moving one of the rear wheels walked out and the tire bumped the fender. Only one wheel to roll on, they looked it over and said "should be OK to get home on."

It's Friday and the bearing should be a stock item; a good weekend job.

Bernie

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You haven't said if you only hear a noise at very low speeds.....does everything sound normal at 30 m.p. h.? Also, if

you mean that it only makes the noise with your foot on the gas and not coasting when you say it only makes it under load,

that indicates a driveshaft problem, either carrier bearing or u-joints. Usually wheel bearings make the same noise whether

coasting or accelerating.

Edited by Seafoam65 (see edit history)
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You haven't said if you only hear a noise at very low speeds.....does everything sound normal at 30 m.p. h.? Also, if

you mean that it only makes the noise with your foot on the gas and not coasting when you say it only makes it under load,

that indicates a driveshaft problem, either carrier bearing or u-joints. Usually wheel bearings make the same noise whether

coasting or accelerating.

Sorry seafoam, i was using the wrong terminology. Under load, I just meant it doesn't do it if you just spin the wheel. It does it coasting, in reverse, while braking, w/o braking. Only goes away when making a right-hand turn. does it at 30mph--and until road noise at higher speeds drowns it out.

Looks like the bearing, then. Will report back to confirm.

thanks for the tips,

n

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  • 1 month later...

OK, well, that took a while. My experience changing the bearings is on this thread: http://forums.aaca.org/f177/rear-wheel-bearing-replacement-64-basic-378609.html (Note that I ran into a problem that I'm surprised I don't see anyone else alluding to.)

HOWEVER: big disappointment, the noise remains the same. I may need to start a new thread to ask for new ideas if this one seems dead. But I'm all ears.

Thanks,

nick

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OK, well, that took a while. My experience changing the bearings is on this thread: http://forums.aaca.org/f177/rear-wheel-bearing-replacement-64-basic-378609.html (Note that I ran into a problem that I'm surprised I don't see anyone else alluding to.)

HOWEVER: big disappointment, the noise remains the same. I may need to start a new thread to ask for new ideas if this one seems dead. But I'm all ears.

Thanks,

nick

Nick, I'm sorry that the noise is still there, but changing the rear wheel bearings and seals was probably a wise move in the long run. I must say I'm not surprised that the bearings didn't fix it, because

I've never had a creaking noise with each revolution of the wheel be caused by a wheel bearing. In my experience, wheel bearings make a constant drone or humming noise getting louder the faster you go. I will

list for you the things I've seen in the last 40 years that caused a noise like you describe.... 1) loose lug nuts

or holes wallowed out in the wheel not allowing the wheel to be tightly clamped on the hub.2) brake drum out of round causing a noise every revolution when the shoes hit the high spot 3)brake backing plate bent

causing it to hit the drum in one spot every revolution. 4) brake shoes and hardware either missing parts, having broken parts or incorrectly assembled. 5)u-joints on drive shaft bad or carrier bearing bad. 6)bent axle 7)hub cap noise 8) frozen parking brake cable not fully releasing. If it's none of these 8 things then we are in the Twilight Zone, and Rod Serling is smoking a cigarette in the back seat of your Riviera. Good luck

and keep us posted..... Winston

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Thanks seafoam for your time and your list. I think 1-3 are basically ruled out (plus, I got to say, it's a distinct creak, almost like a spring sound, more than a scrape). 4: well, possibly, but I don't really think so. 5: that would kind of be what I fear; 6) well, nothing has occurred recently to bend the axle, I don't know; 7: no, I removed them; 8: parking break seems perfectly operative.

So, I don't know. I'm going to give it a rest for a while, maybe the noise will go south with the geese :). Thanks again.

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I'm reverting to my original gut feeling from post #2.…center-bearing

BUT

It may have been on this forum that I read one member tracked a creak/vibration coming from his brake line. The protective spring type wrap on the brake line coming out of the frame at the rear wasn't on tight.

About 10 cents worth of silicone caulking fix that problem

David

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I'm reverting to my original gut feeling from post #2.…center-bearing

BUT

It may have been on this forum that I read one member tracked a creak/vibration coming from his brake line. The protective spring type wrap on the brake line coming out of the frame at the rear wasn't on tight.

About 10 cents worth of silicone caulking fix that problem

David

Center bearing "creak" would not coincide with the "creak" coming from the wheel as has been described. The drive shaft turns at engine speed, the differential then spins the wheels at a different speed depending on the gear ratio. If the rear end is the standard 3.07, you'd hear the "creak" about three times for every revolution of the wheel.

Do you have the same "creak" with the car on jack stands? With a wheel bolted to the axle? Without a wheel bolted to the axle? Or just with a load on it? Try swapping wheels side to side and see what happens. To me it sounds like a brake shoe or something to do with the brakes and the drum. Is the inner surface of the brake drum concentric with the center? (Did you have the drums turned and perhaps the drum wasn't centered when it was turned?)

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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If you have not already done so, swap the spare into each wheel position (if you can not determine if the creak is coming from the front or rear) and see if the noise goes away. I have seen, on a rare occasion, the two pieces of a welded wheel move relative to each other when loaded. This is very rare but it is possible and does happen. Do you have the correct rims in all 4 positions? Is it possible one of the wheels is not seating on the front hub or rear axle flange before the inside edge contacts the brake drum? Do the lug nuts "feel" normal as they tighten the wheels? Free turning until the lug nut comes to a firm stop or a steadily increasing effort until it "kinda" feels like the lugs are tight?

Tom

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David, Ed, Tom, thanks very much for all this. I'm leaving town on business for a couple of weeks and will need to give this a rest for now. The only thing I've swapped on the wheels would be the two rear ones. (noise is definitely right rear, and stays that way) No effect. Though both rear wheels are the ones that used to be on the front; I moved them back when I did the brake work. that brake work was replacing cylinders and springs only--pads plenty good. As such did not have drums turned.

Lug-wise, all is normal (replaced one bad stud when axles were off). I'm pretty sure all is seated correctly, esp since I've had the dang wheels / drums off and on so much, it's hard to believe I'd keep putting the thing back bad.

When I return, I'll look at the brake hardware closely; check the brake line wrap; and try to see if I can get this noise to happen on stands. It doesn't happen just spinning the wheels freely; but maybe with the engine in gear and running.

Thanks again!

(And there's something about this forum that affects my spelling: break for brake??)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest DRM500RUBYZR1

The noise was introduced after brake work.

While it COULD POSSIBLY be caused by the ashtray, the antenna, or perhaps sunspots, I would remain laser focused on the brakes.

Before brake work, no noise.

After brake work, noise.

I remain puzzled that you do not hear it jacked up and turning the wheel, but I still question that with rebuilt or new cylinders, the shoes are making intermittent contact with the drum as they may be further out with the new cylinders abd hardware.

Haveyou tried applying the brakes while jacked, and then turning the wheel afterwards?

inspect where the pins contact the shoes to see if there is movement between the 2

you have come this far, I would spend a few bucks and try new shoes and have the drums turned.

Don't give up, we will figure it out!

David, Ed, Tom, thanks very much for all this. I'm leaving town on business for a couple of weeks and will need to give this a rest for now. The only thing I've swapped on the wheels would be the two rear ones. (noise is definitely right rear, and stays that way) No effect. Though both rear wheels are the ones that used to be on the front; I moved them back when I did the brake work. that brake work was replacing cylinders and springs only--pads plenty good. As such did not have drums turned.

Lug-wise, all is normal (replaced one bad stud when axles were off). I'm pretty sure all is seated correctly, esp since I've had the dang wheels / drums off and on so much, it's hard to believe I'd keep putting the thing back bad.

When I return, I'll look at the brake hardware closely; check the brake line wrap; and try to see if I can get this noise to happen on stands. It doesn't happen just spinning the wheels freely; but maybe with the engine in gear and running.

Thanks again!

(And there's something about this forum that affects my spelling: break for brake??)

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(And there's something about this forum that affects my spelling: break for brake??)

Nothing like what some of the duffuses come up with on one of the vintage bicycle forums.

They don't know there's a difference between brake and break. The other day one guy was trying to spell probably and it came out prolly.

I think that I more fun watching that forum for things like that than I do for bike repair info. You could probably teach a college level grammar class just based on the anguished English those guys use.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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Marty,

thanks for this. everyone's going to think I'm not worth dealing with, but it would seem that the noise is now... less bad and intermittent. When I first got the axles back in, I still heard the noise, but I didn't drive it much, too busy. Back from my trip, yesterday, I drove my boy and myself down to the beach, maybe 60 miles to and fro, and upon returning: no noise, or at least, undetectable with the passenger window rolled down and driving along side fences to reflect it back. This morning, I checked cold: creak is there, but I have to say it's far less obtrusive than it was. When I first started with all this, it was quite loud: I thought everyone must be looking at me as I drove by in my "jalopy." This a.m., it was there, but was very quickly drowned out by road noise. And this p.m.: less obtrusive still.

So, well, to come back to Marty's point: the only thing I can say brake-wise is that, when I did the axles, I did try to lube a few contact points (i.e., where the adjuster wheel contacts the shoes), but when I did the install I did most of those points anyway; plus, I doubt that makes any difference anyway (?). The other thing is that the variable volume thing has got me thinking: if the noise had been softer before the brake work, it's quite possible that in fact I did have noise before, it just wasn't that bad and I didn't notice.

The upshot is: seems like I've wasted some time (mine, yours) and some coin.

Right now I'm just going to pop the hubcaps back on, drive the baby (whoo-hoo: gas prices falling!), and see what happens noise-wise. Maybe it is going south with the geese after all... If not, I shall return...

Thanks all!

The noise was introduced after brake work.

While it COULD POSSIBLY be caused by the ashtray, the antenna, or perhaps sunspots, I would remain laser focused on the brakes.

Before brake work, no noise.

After brake work, noise.

I remain puzzled that you do not hear it jacked up and turning the wheel, but I still question that with rebuilt or new cylinders, the shoes are making intermittent contact with the drum as they may be further out with the new cylinders abd hardware.

Haveyou tried applying the brakes while jacked, and then turning the wheel afterwards?

inspect where the pins contact the shoes to see if there is movement between the 2

you have come this far, I would spend a few bucks and try new shoes and have the drums turned.

Don't give up, we will figure it out!

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