Radial Tires and Judging

Congrats, Bernie!

GREAT picture in your lower signature! A BUICK IN ACTION! On unimproved roads, just like things used to be!

Enjoy!

NTX5467

On biased tires. Lee Marvin and Paul Newman made me do it.

Bernie

On biased tires. Lee Marvin and Paul Newman made me do it.

Bernie

LIKE

88 degrees...Yikes!

The tires I refered to are made by American Classic and they definately can pass for bias and the quality is excellent. Old Tank,, Regarding your fear the "R" in the sizing would be detected during judging. I suggest the careful use of a small buffer wheel with a steady hand and the tire will look like it never had an "R" anywhere

I am afraid that I have to agree with Pete Phillips on the reverse safety factor of having radials on older rims. If you were to look at a cross section of a radial tire during hard cornering, you would see that the load is way out at the edge of the tire putting a great strain on the wheel and suspension. I have just read another article (can not remember where at the moment) stressing the potential danger of using radial tires on suspensions and wheels not designed for them.

I drove my Buick to many Nationals , some over a thousand miles each way on bias ply tires with no ill effects.

it is my contention that radials do not make a car handle any better, they only feel like they are handling better. That old tire squeal told you when to back off in a turn in the bias ply tire days, now that inhibition is gone, with no sound, but you still have the same old suspension components and wheels.

On last point is that the modified car guys throwing their cars around the quarter mile (bullrings) tracks still use bias ply tires.

Safety???

Listen to the sweet sounds t 2:40 seconds:

No radials, no rack and pinion. no McPherson struts or coil overs, no ABS, just the best technology on the market 9 years before we put a man on the moon. None of this stuff is intrinsically safe OR dangerous. One thing I did learn from this; stay out of Washington. There are two. My tin can steamed up the Potomac and tied up at the Naval Museum there in 1971, saw it don't care to go back. The other I guess I can call the rough rider state. I understand they are petitioning to change the name and avoid association with the DC one.

I'm with Mr. Duntov.

Bernie

The tires I refered to are made by American Classic and they definately can pass for bias and the quality is excellent. Old Tank,, Regarding your fear the "R" in the sizing would be detected during judging. I suggest the careful use of a small buffer wheel with a steady hand and the tire will look like it never had an "R" anywhere

I am anxious to see a set of these on a car, even as a purist it sounds like these may be a good compromise. Radials just look so wrong on the old cars.

Thanks for the comments Steve. Apparently only you, Old-Tank, and I are the only ones who responded to this thread have driven the rutted Washington State roads. I guess, as the old saying goes, "You had to be there."

I have no where near the collection that Steve does, but I do have 8 Buicks from 1955 - 1970, and I drive them all. And I live in WA state. Several of my cars are Concours Gold cars (BCA, BPG, GS Nationals and AACA). Several of these cars came with bias ply tires on them when I bought them. NONE of them have Bias Ply tires on them now. Way too much work and not safe on our roads.

Jack, the outer tread area of a tire will always see the greatest forces in a turn, especially on the front wheels. BUT . . . the amount of stress at that area is greatly-influenced by the design of the front suspension. For example, just how much negative camber the outer wheel gets as the wheel turns AND how much positive camber the inner front wheel gets as the vehicle negotiates the turn. Typically, many GM vehicles' front camber pattern leaves the outer wheel perpendicular to the front bumper's lateral "line". This means that as the car leans into the corner, the outer front tire ALSO leans the same amount, resulting in the outer edge of the tire tread being where the greatest stresses are. Even if larger sway bars kept the vehicle flatter, that outer edge would still see the greatest stress.

NOW, IF the front wheels had more negative camber on the outer wheel, with similar positive camber on the inner wheel, as the car leaned into the turn, the tires would be better-braced against those cornering forces AND remain more vertical to the road's surface, thereby using more of the tire's tread width to turn the corner. I found this information in a Chrysler MasterTech course on front suspensions (You can probably find it at www.imperialclub.com , in the section where they have all of these MasterTech programs/courses archived). On a GM vehicle, you can get more negative camber in the outer wheel by increasing the caster to its max value when you align the front wheels. BUT . . . max + caster can also increase steering effort and make tire balance become more critical. On many '60s era and prior vehicles, before power steering was on "everything", it was common to see alignment specs for manual steering and power steering, with the PS specs having more positive caster and the MS specs having "zero" or negative caster to ease steering efforts.

An example of the Chrysler system can be observed in "It's a Wild, Wild, Wild World", on the '62 Imperial convertible and other Chrysler products as they race to the "finish line" . . . on somewhat skinny (by modern standards) bias ply tires and stock suspensions (the "stock suspension" was verified in another post quoting the vehicle manager for that movie, which included the "secrets" of the Ford Phil Silvers was driving and the somewhat perilous nature of filming that "water scene"). Key thing is to keep as much of the tire's tread "on the road" in spirited cornering by BOTH front wheels in the turn. Many of us have seen pictures and videos of cars in higher-speed turns, with the outer front tire firmly planted and the inner front wheel barely using the inner tread ribs of the tire in that situation.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467