Radial Tires and Judging

I am sure this discussion has come up before in the Forum but I couldn't find it.

Does anyone know the reason why BCA judging rules specify deducting points for a car having radial tires when it was originally equipped with bias ply tires?

If you have ever driven a car with bias ply tires on rutted Interstate highways, having radial tires makes all the difference in the world. Many times I have unintentionally drifted out of the ruts and had to recover. I guess my question is this: Why is having seat belts considered a safety accessory and points are not deducted for them, but having radial tires, which I deem also as a safety issue, points are deducted?

Just curious.

Joe , you have brought up a very good point ! I have been working on this issue for about 10 years now and continue to do so . At one time it was a mandatory deduction - that eliminated the possibility of winning a Gold Award . We got the mandatory deduction dropped but the 4 or 8 point deduction is still in effect . I sent an email to our new Head Judge a few days ago re this - one point was that in the O class in Portland most Rivieras had radials ( 63 65 ) alone . There is a message being sent here ! I would imagine it would be the same in other classes as well . I agree , it is a safety issue . Perhaps proponents of Radials should let the Administration know how they a feel about this ! In my opinion I think The Judging Team is considering Change - Lets help it along !

Mr. Riviera:

I am glad I am not the only one who considers having radial tires a safety issue. Not that I care too much about judging, but I lost 10 points because of my radial tires in Portland, 5 for having radials and another 5 for not having the correct tire size. It would be interesting to see what other National clubs (marques) are doing with their judging of radial tires (e.g., Chrysler, Packard, Ford, etc.).

Be that as it may, I will continue to take deductions for my radial tires in lieu of having a safety issue.

Welcome to the Radial Tire Club ! You are not alone !

The size issue bothers me too, there are zero choices correct for 885-15 or 845-15 for 65 Wildcat.

You have a choice, you can choose to properly restore your car right down to the tires, or you can put radials on it and accept the deduction. It is your choice, no one is telling you to go one way or another. I for one would be disappointed if they made radials "legal" for point judging on cars that didn't originally have them available. While we are at it, let's allow other non-authentic items also so we loose all sense of what's correct and what's not. Again, it's your choice and the BCA's judging standards shouldn't be compromised. That's what the "Driven" class is for. Maybe I will put a set of radials on my 28 Master.

Mr. Riviera:

I am glad I am not the only one who considers having radial tires a safety issue. Not that I care too much about judging, but I lost 10 points because of my radial tires in Portland, 5 for having radials and another 5 for not having the correct tire size. It would be interesting to see what other National clubs (marques) are doing with their judging of radial tires (e.g., Chrysler, Packard, Ford, etc.).

Be that as it may, I will continue to take deductions for my radial tires in lieu of having a safety issue.

The biggest club, AACA does't allow radials and i can't see that changing.

Nor should it..................Bob

Odd that so many of our old cars survived driving on dangerous bias-ply tires. So did their occupants. My '57 lives in the South, has been through Chicago's continually-under-construction highways on the way to Michigan's U.P., and has logged thousands of interstate miles all over the Eastern Seaboard in all weather except for snow. Never once have I felt nervous about its handling.

If your car's front end bits are sorted out correctly, there should be no problem with the tires it came with. Until someone comes up with a scientific study that bias-ply tires are inherently dangerous, I consider the whole issue little more than Urban Myth.

Should the AACA or BCA relax its judging guidelines on this particular issue of personal choice versus correctness, that's the day I hit the exits. By all means equip your car the way you wish, but don't expect everyone else to fall in lock-step with your choice.

TG

Sorry TG, I don't buy the Urban Myth theory.

I have three other vintage cars without radials and I tell you they have the potential of being dangerous. Here in Washington State they allow studded snow tires. These tires just tear up the pavement. In addition, Washington State uses mostly asphalt to repave their highways. Over time, heavy trucks have worn ruts into the lanes which makes driving with bias ply tires like being in the luge at the Winter Olympics. It is especially dangerous when the rain water just sits in these ruts. Yes, I can make it to shows and meets with my bias ply tires, but I believe it is so much safer to drive with the radials. So does the BCA (and other clubs) want you to arrive at their meets safely, or is being authentic their only concern? I'm not professing that everyone convert to radial tires. I just am saying a car shouldn't be penalized for them.

Sorry for the rant.

Years ago there were articles in the Bugle and other old car publications about the danger--though remote--of putting radial tires on rims or wheels that were never designed for them. There have been instances where a steel wheel came apart while driving down the highway, due to the squirm that is inherent in radial tires. This squirm can cause welded or two-piece wheels to come apart at the welds and disintegrate. It doesn't happen very often, but it has happened and that is one of the reasons why the BCA frowns on steel belted tires for cars that never came with or were designed for them, in addition to the authenticity issue. I'm sure someone will probably attack me for writing this or will try to discredit me--go ahead--I don't care. I'm simply telling the newer members the history of why the BCA does not encourage radial tires on pre-1966 cars. Yes, it's your car, and you can do what you please with it, but don't tell me there's no good reason not to allow radials on older cars.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

BCA member since 1977

P.S.: Radial tires also make a car without power steering more difficult to steer at low or no speed, due to the increased amount of tire surface that is in contact with the pavement at any one time.

My 53 & 57 traveled thousands of miles with bias ply tires and handled and performed well. Joe, maybe we can flip it another way, the guys that do it right get extra points for caring about the detail, that way you won't loose points. I always say if someone's going to cut corners in one area you can count on it they cut corners in other areas.

Well . . . the issues of radial tires and halogen headlights have been some of the most-discussed items in this forum, but probably farther back than the search function might go. I know it was a point of discussion as far back as 1996, when we hosted the BCA National Meet in Plano, TX.

Then-Office Manager Val Ingram kind of put it all in perspective in one of her comments. Her comments were to the effect that the BCA was supposed to be the highest-level Buick car club in the world, so others look to US to see how we do things. Additionally, just because another car club might allow (or be less-strict) in allowing certain deviations from "as-produced" factory (or factory-available) items on their Buicks does NOT mean the BCA should do likewise. At that time, the BCA did not have anything other than the 400 Point judging system AND the stated orientation for judging was "end of the assembly line correct". Not "Day Two" restorations, but end of the assembly line, as produced, correct.

There were many comments about radial tire upgrades (when there we no factory radial tire options . . . as listed, just as there were about the greater nighttime visibility afforded by the halogen headlight bulbs . . . all relating to "safety issues". There were many comments about the "dangerous" bias-ply tires, too. As the discussion(s) progressed, it was also noted that when we had those earlier bias-ply tires, that was ALL we had back then. Plus that in those earlier times, the rubber bushings in the suspensions were MUCH tighter than they might currently be, as was the steering gear adjustment and other "flex joints" in the steering system.

As Pete noted, there have been issues with the various torsional forces of radial tire construction resulting in wheel failures (hopefully with air loss being gradual rather than sudden!) on wheels not designed to handle such forces. Such failures might have, mostly, all happened in prior years, but I also suspect there are still some of those wheels "out there" on vehicles awaiting restoration or modifications.

I am also fully aware of the fact that some tire sizes, which were somewhat common in the 1960s, have been somewhat forgotten in the repro/restoration tires of more recent times. 8.55x14 is one. As I recall, 8.45x14 was only available for about two model years before it was replaced with 8.55x15 sizing, just as 8.15x15 was upgraded to 8.25x15. The 8.85x15 size saw much lower use than the 8.55x15 sizes, later superceeding into J78x15. Not to forget the L84x15 Goodyears that saw use on certain Chrysler station wagons! And then you throw in the various white sidewall configrations (single, double, triple) and it further complicates things! In consideration of these things, it might be necessary to have some "mini-deductions" for incorrect sizing as long as the sizing is a later version/equivalency of the original size . . . being fully cognizant of just what's available in the repro/resto tire market. Only problem might be that many might take the "short route" of only looking locally for their repro tire sizes, being told by their local tire dealer "It's not available any more" (which can be accurate in many cases, but NOT in all cases) and not looking any further, then complaining of a point deduction in judging--this is a separate issue which can happen in other areas of replacement parts, too, by observation.

It has been my observation that certain groups within the Buick hobby seem less concerned about correctness of "stock" vehicles than other segments might. This can also relate to whether a car is a "trailer queen" show car or a "driven" show car. Shall we modify the as-stated orientation of the BCA400 Point judging just to suit that certain group that might alter their vehicles "from stock" and still expect high-level awards in "stock" classes?

During those earlier discussions, the availability of repro tires, repro batteries, and repro T-3 headlights were not what they currently might be. In those orientations, "close match" would have been more permissible, but as the repro/resto parts market has grown, what we used to scrounge salvage yards for can now be had with a "wave of the plastic".

In the case of the early Rivieras, certainly upgrading to radial tires fits the "sporty, higher-performance" nature of the vehicle, just as halogen headlights (or even E-code non-sealed beam headlights) can make them safer to drive after dark, just as the THM200-4R overdrive automatic upgrade makes the cars nicer to drive and enjoy, but does that mean those modifications/upgrades should be allowed "no deductions" in the 400 Point judging scheme of things, although such things are definite deviations from how the particular vehicles exited the Buick factory they were produced in? The ROA might see things differently (in those alterations from "stock"), but as long as the judged show is a BCA show, then BCA orientations/rules are operative in how things are judged.

Then there's the authenticity issue AND how people perceive what they see at the shows. If they attend a BCA show, in the 400 Point system judging show field, it would be reasonable to expect to see correct, as-assembled-by Buick vehicles . . . even completely original, un-restored unmolested vehicles. If they see radial tires or halogen headlights on vehicles which did not have those items as options or original equipment, their perception of "stock" can be "what they see" rather than what they were supposed to see. To me, THAT degrades the stated purpose of the BCA 400 Point judging system where the ultimate benchmark is "end of the assembly line correct" (including certain dealer-installed, factory-approved options). To me, that presents the problem of "Do we penalize those vehicles enough to prevent them from earning a high-level 400 Point award, have a lesser deduction that (providing there are no other significant deductions) to allow them a Bronze, Silver, or Gold (IF the car is good enough for a Gold with the tire deductions!), or do we shuttle them off to the Driven or Modified classes?

In restoring/refurbishing vehicles, with the intent of possibly showing the vehicle in national-level shows, you have to know the judging rules of the particular shows to be participating in. If it's a BCA show, you go by BCA judging rules (400 Point, Divisions, normal classes). If it's a ROA show, AACA show, or a weekend cruise event, the same things applies. You have to know the rules BEFORE you play the game, deciding which rules you might like best and then "playing that game". Just don't expect ALL of the rules between the various groups to be the same, which they most probably are NOT. Don't expect the rules to mesh with how YOU want to restore/equip your vehicle, either. In other cases, the judging rules and owner orientations can be "spot on", which can be good.

The BCA 400 Point judging rules on radial tires are quite specific in when radials were first available as options AND on which vehicles. It's all in the front of The Roster, just as the issues of "color changes" are addressed. I respectfully submit that I personally and professionally do not feel the BCA judging rules should be altered just because one group of owners might choose to equip their vehicles in a certain non-as-produced/modified/upgraded manner. If we make those concessions to that particular group, then we MUST extend those same concessions to everybody else, to be fair. Or that same group should follow the same rules everybody else has been following for many decades.

Certainly, there are some upgrades which can be "incognito" in nature, but radial tires are much more visible than spark plugs, for example, so they tend to get noticed rather easily. I will also state that I would have no problem with a vehicle receiving a BCA Gold award with radial tires on it, but that would also indicate that everything else on the car was "letter perfect" enough to deserve the highest award. I certainly respect an owner taking the extra effort and $$ to get that perfect restoration to be good enough to still receive a Gold Award for a vehicle with radial tires on it. It all depends upon which "game" you want to play and also to play to a higher degree of execution than someone else might.

Just some thoughts,

Willis Bell 20811

Spot on, Willis. A rule is a rule.

As long as they are not changed mid-stream, live by them. One does not HAVE to enter the 400 point judging. Ever time I read or hear something like this, I am so glad I chose not to do mine to that level. I am also glad that many others have chosen to. But accept the rules! We accept rules every day. Life is full of them.

PEACE, guys , PEACE.

Ben

OK. I now understand why points are deducted for having radial tires. But, after reading all of the discussions about ensuring the authenticity of our cars at National Meets, I have to ask. If authenticity is of prime importance, and having radial tires detracts from that, why are cars that have seat belts which originally did not come with them not deducted points? Here again is an authenticity issue.

Again, I just want to understand the reasoning.

Seat belts have been proven to save lives and is a safety factor. Radial tires are not. Many of us have driven thousands of miles on Bias Ply tires with no issues.

Buick NEVER built a car that had "perfect paint or door fit" but the judges will gig you for them

As a general rule, all cars from about '62 onward were configured for seat belts, even if they were not factory-installed or offered as an "approved factory accessory". In some cases, you can go back to about 1955 when Ford first made its play for "safety designs" in automobiles, some were standard (deep-dish steering wheels) as others were optional (seat belts, pads for instrument panel surfaces).

With Ford making this such a big issue back then, other manufacturers had to follow suit in one way or another. Plus, it was another tie-in with the young "jet age" of that time, which led to many aircraft or rocket-oriented automotive designs.

Certainly, some automotive club groups have made concessions for certain things, over time, for one reason or another. In many cases, later technology has replaced the earlier technologies (i.e., cell phones and mobile internet replacing CB radios of the 1970s, in many cases), making the earlier tech items more novelties than necessary additions (as they were considered in earlier times). I recall a concession to CB radios in the BCA judging format, possibly seat belts, too . . . as vehicle-to-vehicle communications could be beneficial in the event of an emergency (including a certain brass-era Buick on modern highways, as related by the late David Corbin).

Enjoy!

Willis Bell 20811

Regarding seat belts, there are many styles available for the particular vintage of the vehicles they might be installed into.

Here is is Sunday morning and I was planning on about a 200 mile round trip ride on a combination of back roads, secondary roads, and expressways in the salt belt of western New York. The roads aren't great and many have tar strips where a low bidder widened them. The only thought I had prior to seeing this message was that I needed to get some gas. And I just drive up the the regular pump at the Mobil station for that. Close to 90 today and don't expect the dreaded "vapor lock", either.

I'm about 14,000 miles on my '60 with biased tires. I am about 2,000 miles into the second set of new ones and luckly wore the first set out at the rate of about 1,000 mikes per year. They didn't age rot on the car.

The air pressure is right.

The steering center link is tight.

The steering box is tight with the correct preload.

The tie-rod ends are tight.

All the pivot points and ball joints are in good condition.

The shocks are all fairly new.

The front wheel bearing have been replaced and adjusted correctly.

My car was purchased in February, 1961, a left over, for a little over $3,000. I feel as secure as the person who laid out that three grand and drove it home the first time. It didn't handle like a radial tired, front wheel drive, disc brake, 3,000 pound car then and it doesn't now. It is very safe BECAUSE IT IS MAINTAINED.

A friend of mine was over yesterday looking at the '48 Packard I just bought. The previous owner turned over his expense folder. We looked at the new tires (biased), sandblasting the wheels, the brake job including a new master cylinder and lines, the fuel tank removal and new fuel lines, and a new clutch; close to $5,000. My friend said "Yeah, but none of this shows." And receipt for $500 to rechrome a few parts was in the house. He didn't think the car looked too good.

I think the whole radial tire issue is based on cost. Radials are common and cheaper. Digging into the suspension on a 50 year old car uncovers a lot of parts and labor that "don't show" and conditions that are easily masked with some flexible sidewalls. I can tell you, a ride in the Electra or the Riviera, on biased tires today will not be some fight to maintain a straight line on the road. It costs an average of $600 per year in routine maintenance and preservation. Some years I get way ahead and some years I get a small break. Over time the averages work out. If the money isn't spent or the place it is spent is not competent the car will not perform the way it did to pry the premium money from the original purchaser.

And I had to smile at the comment about biased tires in the snow:

Bernie

I have bias ply on 2 of my 3 55's. Most of the time driving around here, I forget that they are bias ply. In 2007 I drove one of my 55's on those rutted roads in Washington. It had nearly new, good quality bias ply with new suspension components and was properly aligned. Driveability was good until I got on those rutted roads! Joe needs radials if he wants to drive and he should drive.

Rim failure from radials? I never could understand the reasoning. Here is the opposite argument from Diamondback radials site: http://www.dbtires.com/rimstress.html . If new rims are not available (no good direct fit for 55's), then old rims of unknown history should be checked closely. On one of my restorations only one of the original rims was serviceable, the others had deep rust pits or were bent. I had 16 rims from a local wrecking yard checked ($$$) after visual cosmetic inspection. Then tires were dismounted and the rims were checked for run-out. After sandblasting with fine sand, I had a local machine shop magnaflux...one had a crack near the lug mount area. I doubt that any of the failed rims were evaluated like that.

I have found that all radials perform better near the max inflation pressure on the sidewall, which is about 10 psi higher than comparable bias ply.

Willie

Thanks Willie. I am glad someone reaffirmed my assessment of the rutted Washington State highways. When I got my '55 Buick it already had radials on it so I don't know what it was like driving it with bias ply tires. But I DID drive my '51 Packard with bias ply tires for years and constantly fought the ruts. When I purchased a set of radials for it, driving was like night-and-day compared to the bias ply. No longer was I "slung" out of the ruts into the adjoining lanes.

For me, it still is a safety issue.

Joe, if everybody had to drive the rutted Washington State highways with bias ply, then they would fix the highways!

I have put 120;000 on my 40 with bias ply tires , and haven't wrecked it yet !!!!1

On the topic of Washington, is there really a petition to change the name of the state to disassociate it with the other Washington?

My wife and I were driving the 1960 Electra today and I told her about this topic. She said "You don't look like you are having much trouble." We were driving on a two mile section of scarified two lane that is scheduled for repaving; all those orange barrels and groves.

I used to own a red 1967 Sunbeam Alpine and learned how to imitate Maxwell Smart pretty good. So, crisply and authoritatively I asked "Have I ever told you about vapor lock." She still giggles pretty good. We got lunch and came home on the same treacherous route.

Bernie

IMO, the points issue is relatively easy to resolve. If the car is driven to the meet and judged in a 400 point class, judges should allow enough extra points for actually driving the car to the meet to offset the deductions for the radial tires.

Even the judges for Pebble Beach make allowances for the cars that are driven on the tour they hold just before the concourse show. They realized some time ago that cars that arrive on trailers often are not mechanically sound to drive on the highway.

http://www.pebblebeachconcours.net/pages/3023.html#tour_d%27elegance

Kind of like giving the lame guy a head start? I am not one that trailers my cars, but i also don't want any special privilege because i do drive them. What's next, let's give John Doe extra points because he is old and can't bend down and clean his whitewalls?

Keith - we had that very discussion on Saturday at the regional. I wasn't hard-nosed about it but as judges we need to remember that we are judging the cars and not the ability of the owner to prep it for judging.

Joe - some of us are working on judging from withi. And recognize that end of assembly line wasn't perfect so making allowances for that.

As as for rutted Washington roads, at every border crossing I've been through you can always feel the difference between Canadian and American roads. Ours are poorer.

Some me cars seem to prefer bias ply and ride nicer on them than radials.

For the Wildcat, I put bias ply tires on the original rims with hub caps for judging and found a set of the correct optional chrome wheels and put radial tires on them. For a little bit of time I can either be in the factory condition or put on the sportier looking wheels and light up the radials.

It it was explained very well. Part of the idea is that awarding a Gold Senior award to a car implies that it is very correct. It can somewhat be used as a model for correctly restoring other cars of the same year and model.

There are many options if you want some recognition at a BCA meet - 400 point, driven, modified, or archival - picking the right class is something I think we need to better communicate to the membership, particularly those attending a meet for the first time. Alternatively if one doesn't care about hardware, display only is another option. Regardless, any driven Buick can wear the dead bugs as badges of honour.

Again, Joe makes a good point. In the earlier 1970s, when some of the guys older than myself told stories of what THEY did in their youth. One guy told about how he and some of his buddies would "race to the next town" (he in his '55 Century) just to have something to do on a weekend night (sans dates). This was in the southern part of the TX panhandle where the "next town" was about 35 miles . . . at night, on "normal tires for the time", and with normal headlights of the time, under the light of the moon, with mileage-worn suspensions on (probably) weak shocks of the time. Even on an "optimistic"-reading speedometer, that would have meant 90mph+ for about 15 minutes or so. AND you took the word of the local independent tire dealer of what was a "good tire" (because if he sold you one that was not "good", then he might lose a customer!). If the tires were inflated high enough, had decent tread depth, then what was there to worry about? THOSE were the days!

At the concours events, even if the cars might drive off of or out of a trailer onto the grassy show field, from what I have seen on television shows, AFTER the tires are prepped, they are wrapped in plastic for the drive on the grass to the award presentation area. The plastic is removed and the car is driven to the presentation stage area. After the award is presented, no cares if the tire treads might accumulate some pebbles or grass clippings on the way home, it seems.

As time progresses, the quality of the show cars will increase from what it used to be, by observation. That means that EACH exhibitor must raise the level of their "game" in order to just maintain where they were the prior year, even though the same benchmark standards were in place for each year's show.

I also concur with many of Derek's comments, especially on the wheel/tire situation. One set for national events, another set for weekend cruises and such, playing to each group of judges rather than trying to "hope somebody doesn't notice" something (possibly complaining when they do). Not unlike having an empty battery case (correct for the vehicle) for show and a real battery to move the car with . . . which was done before we had correct repro batteries readily available. Which way you want to go, you can, if you want to.

Take care! Hopes for a great week for all!

Willis Bell 20811

some of his buddies would "race to the next town"

Up here in my area the suburban bowling alleys are still 8-10 miles apart.

Bernie

To quote Bruce Norgard (BCA 26172): "I drove my car to a trailer show."

Excellent quote Jim!

Sounds like Bruce :cool:

This is tough topic. I understand and agree with comments on both sides of the issue and don't have a problem with the rule as it stands but at same time would understand if it was changed.

Curious how many who drive their cars to a meet running bias tires now would be doing so if it weren't a requirement in point judging?

I put bias tires on a Riv many years ago primarily for BCA judging to get a senior. Years later when I swapped the bias tires for radials it was an enlightening moment and I swore I would never go back to bias even if it meant losing the possibility of a senior award. I have seen folks haul a spare set of wheels with original bias tires to the meet and change out the radials once at the show. This is best of both worlds because it gave spectators a chance to see the car exactly how it left the factory and not receive a deduction and also provided a more pleasurable driving experience with radials to and from the meet. Unfortunately that process is challenging and cost prohibitive for most.

Another twist is that now we can get radial tires custom made with most whitewall or redline arrangemements desired. So one could have a correct looking tire as far as whitewall type in the closest P metric size to original and even though the tire is not bias, it will appear more correct.

Thinking out loud, is a correct-for-year bias tire with an incorrect size whitewall better than a radial with a correct whitewall?

Let's not even think about the tens of thousands of folks who regularly drove on recapped bias tires and lived to tell about it. I grew up in Dad's tire shop and remember when radials first started showing up. As I remember their appeal was in greater mileage, not handling.

Here's the one I used to peg the speedometer needle on frequently:

The date on the picture is pre-radial except for those Volkswagen ones. After I put the recapped snow tires on I could hardly push it past 110.

When we saw radials first start to show up the belts would shift on our heavier US cars and the ass end would sashay sideways when you drove slow. They got that fixed.

My Impala SS has been aligned twice with new radials and still pulls to the right. The shop told me it is caused by "radial pull" and they can't do anything. So I'm trying to figure how the car that pulls to the right with radials is safer than the car with biased tires that goes down the road straight...

I know a lot of internet abbreviations; is FOS one?

Bernie

Here is is Sunday morning and I was planning on about a 200 mile round trip ride on a combination of back roads, secondary roads, and expressways in the salt belt of western New York. The roads aren't great and many have tar strips where a low bidder widened them. The only thought I had prior to seeing this message was that I needed to get some gas. And I just drive up the the regular pump at the Mobil station for that. Close to 90 today and don't expect the dreaded "vapor lock", either.

Thanks, Bernie...I should have thought of that. I did not have any vapor lock either when I took the CVT out at 10:30 pm when the temperature was only 92* (down from a high of 106*). I would do it again, but I kept sticking to the leather upholstery.

I must chime in! The place is the Sacramento National; time was 1991. The maiden voyage was from Denver approximately 1000 miles. We have some great stories to tell about that trip. The Car; a 1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon. It was Mint Green over Dover White. We entered it in the first BCA 400 point class. Scored 385 if I remember correctly. Mandatory ten point deduct for radial tires. Then I think that we got wacked for some dirt on the under carriage. It does not matter... Anyway the car never did get a senior classification for the same reasons after being driven to five nationals and judged in all five. The car was awarded three Golds and two Silvers during my ownership.

I would like to think that this particular car was the car that whetted the interest collectors of Buicks and station wagons because the prices to own one is now quite high. You do not see a 'body off' restoration of a Caballero driven to a National now. Radial tires are one of the roadblocks. At this time I plan to trailer it to Springfield, MO. Tell me which of the four tire configurations would your prefer to drive from Denver? I have two sets of tires for the Roadmaster so I should not receive a deduct for radials.

Thanks for the photo of James. We were wondering about him recently as we haven't seen him for a couple of years at least.

James is suffering from the consequences of modern treatments for his cancer. We have not had his attendance at our local show for a couple of years. The last I heard, he is able to drive himself and has visited relatives in Ohio. His Caballero is now on display through August at the Forney Museum in Denver. Keep James in your prayers.

Dan

If the judges are really going to get particular as to making sure that everything is "as it was when delivered" then they should sniff the gas tank to make sure that no one is running unleaded fuel.

Ed