Moraine or Bendix on my '63?

Can someone identify this master cylinder/booster setup as a Moraine or Bendix on my '63? I'd like to switch to a dual master cylinder/booster from a '67 Riv (drums/drums setup) and recall reading that I need to get the correct one. Any assistance appreciated!

In the '63 chassis manual there is only info on one master cylinder/booster, unlike the '66 manual which has two separate master cylinder/booster chapters.. In Bob Emby's article on the website that covers this conversion, the part numbers are listed in instruction #2. It lists a Cardone number, but you can probably cross-reference it to something that would be more available to you in your own location.

Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.

Ed

On the Bendix, the cap that covers the master cylinder reservoir screws on. On the Delco Moraine, the cap is held on by a spring clip. Based on your picture, you have a Moraine unit.

I bought both the 67 dual cylinders, and just returned the one that didn't work. It is apparent after you take the old one off which one it is. One has almost no c-bore where the rod contacts and one ia about an inch.

Kaber

Hi Jan what are those wires used for that are attached to the front of the master cylinder? My '64 does not have them although the cylinder looks pretty near identical to yours.

Hi Jan what are those wires used for that are attached to the front of the master cylinder? My '64 does not have them although the cylinder looks pretty near identical to yours.

All '63s have a hydraulic brake light switch. This was changed in '64 to a limit switch on the brake pedal.

Hi Jan what are those wires used for that are attached to the front of the master cylinder? My '64 does not have them although the cylinder looks pretty near identical to yours.

Those wires go to the hydraulic brake lamp switch on a 63. On a 64 the brake light switch is mounted at the pedal.

Here is a pic of my 63 conversion. I moved the brake lamp switch to a tee where I split the front and rear lines to feed to the individual bowls of the new master cylinder. Jim Cannon was a great deal of help to me during this conversion.

Ah ha! Thanks John and Kaber for that tid bit of info.

I bought both the 67 dual cylinders, and just returned the one that didn't work. It is apparent after you take the old one off which one it is. One has almost no c-bore where the rod contacts and one ia about an inch.

Kaber

Thanks, Kaber. Do you remember which one you did use or what the brand and part # is?

In the '63 chassis manual there is only info on one master cylinder/booster, unlike the '66 manual which has two separate master cylinder/booster chapters.. In Bob Emby's article on the website that covers this conversion, the part numbers are listed in instruction #2. It lists a Cardone number, but you can probably cross-reference it to something that would be more available to you in your own location.

Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.

Ed

Jan,

Did you check the webpage?

Jan,

Did you check the webpage?

Hi Ed,

Not yet, because the latest password I have from the last issue I received (May/June) doesn't work. I asked the office to send me the new one. Maybe you have it and can pm me?

Thanks, Kaber. Do you remember which one you did use or what the brand and part # is?

Jan,

I bought them thru O'Reilly Auto parts on line. I am not sure of the brand, you can check on the web sight. I bought #10-1363 and #10-1328. I kept the #10-1328, like I said it is apparent when you disassemble the M/C & Booster assy. You can return the unused one to the local store, along with your core! BE SURE TO CHECK THE SQUARE O-RING BETWEEN THE TWO!!!. If you need a replacement Dewwy's Booster has them for $5! and have EXCELLENT service!!

This was a super easy job and gives you a little piece of mind! I also added an In-line tube line kit with excellent results!

Kaber

Jan,

I bought them thru O'Reilly Auto parts on line. I am not sure of the brand, you can check on the web sight. I bought #10-1363 and #10-1328. I kept the #10-1328, like I said it is apparent when you disassemble the M/C & Booster assy. You can return the unused one to the local store, along with your core! BE SURE TO CHECK THE SQUARE O-RING BETWEEN THE TWO!!!. If you need a replacement Dewwy's Booster has them for $5! and have EXCELLENT service!!

This was a super easy job and gives you a little piece of mind! I also added an In-line tube line kit with excellent results!

Kaber

Thanks Kaber - very helpful. So it looks like you kept your original booster, or is that new too? I ask because if you compare the pix of mine in this thread to your pix, it appears as if the front half of the booster cover is upside down in mine - or maybe it makes no difference?

Thanks Kaber - very helpful. So it looks like you kept your original booster, or is that new too? I ask because if you compare the pix of mine in this thread to your pix, it appears as if the front half of the booster cover is upside down in mine - or maybe it makes no difference?

Its the original Booster.

Hi Ed,

Not yet, because the latest password I have from the last issue I received (May/June) doesn't work. I asked the office to send me the new one. Maybe you have it and can pm me?

Hmmmmm. I received my July/August issue a couple of weeks ago. Check with some other ROA guys in your area to see if they're received their issue of Vol. 30, No. 4. If not, be patient, it will get there. If they have, wait a couple of more days then call the ROA office and ask for another one. DON'T call until you've checked with some others in your area.

FYI - The old username/password is only good for 15 days past the mailing date of the next issue.

Ed

Can anyone else send me a pix of their '63 brake booster unit? Looking at the pix of mine further up in this thread and then the pix of Kaber's unit, the front half of the cover on my booster looks to have been installed upside down, if that's at all possible. I called Booster Dewey for an opinion but they already have a recording saying they're closed for the month of August. My concern is that if my booster setup (a unit installed by the PO) is not factory-correct or not assembled properly, could that have something to do with me losing a noticeable amount brake assist at higher speeds? I'm changing over to a dual master (thanks Kaber for the info) and I only want to do this brake job once. So calling all brake experts on this one - any input is appreciated!

And Ed, I got the new p/w thanks to JZRiv and printed out Bob Embry's article.

Update: Booster Dewey did indeed return my phone call today and he was very helpful. He said that the shell position has no impact on the performance of the booster, but that the "ears" should be facing up as in Kaber's photo. He also recommended that I source a vacuum booster from 1964-66 for any full-sized Buick, including Rivs, to go with the '67 Riv master cylinder because my booster probably was not rebuilt properly. He's also sending me that square O-ring thingie that Kaber suggested, and said to pay him later. So a big thanks Kaber and Dewey, as well as to Bob Embry for taking the time to write up his article detailing the conversion to dual m/cylinder. I'll let everyone know how things progress.

Update: Booster Dewey did indeed return my phone call today and he was very helpful. He said that the shell position has no impact on the performance of the booster, but that the "ears" should be facing up as in Kaber's photo. He also recommended that I source a vacuum booster from 1964-66 for any full-sized Buick, including Rivs, to go with the '67 Riv master cylinder because my booster probably was not rebuilt properly. He's also sending me that square O-ring thingie that Kaber suggested, and said to pay him later. So a big thanks Kaber and Dewey, as well as to Bob Embry for taking the time to write up his article detailing the conversion to dual m/cylinder. I'll let everyone know how things progress.

Yeah, The guy at Booster Dewey was great, My o-ring got here in 2 days! Are you going to replace the brake lines as well? The ones I got from Inline Tube fit great and I got them in less than a week as well. Good luck on you conversion!

Kaber

Kaber,

Do you remember what distribution block you used? And how did you plumb in the brake light switch? Any pix would help, and thanks!

Kaber,

Do you remember what distribution block you used? And how did you plumb in the brake light switch? Any pix would help, and thanks!

No real distribution block needed. There is a tee that splits the line from the single master cylinder and sends fluid to the front, and to the rear. There is some mild replumbing required. I made a new line from the factory tee to the rear res. of the new master cylinder. Where the line runs to the front brakes in the factory tee is where I moved the brake light switch. It is close enough you don't have to lengthen the wires or anything. Then all that's left to do is connect the front brake line to the front Res. of the new master cylinder. I ordered another tee, and a pipe plug from Inline tube. Then made a new line to go to the front res. of the M/C.

So recapping, Move the Brake lamp switch to where the front line connects to the factory Tee and make a new line to the rear of the M/C. Make a new line to go from the front brake lines to the front of the M/C, I used another Tee and plug to connect the existing front line to the new line I made to connect to the front of the M/C. Leave some slack in the new lines you make to allow movement between the frame and body (like a coil). I don't have any pics because you really can't get any in that area. I did make a drawing, I'll try to scan it and post it to this thread tonight. The drawing will help alot!

You don't need any kind of Proportioning valve because it is still all drum brakes! I had a hard time wrapping my mind around that one too, LOL!

Kaber

A drawing would be great - thanks! My brake guy looked at my car this morning just to see what's involved, and he said that I do need a distribution block - he's not going to let me drive off without a brake warning light being installed. So I contacted Inline Tube (thanks again for mentioning them!) and was advised to get this:

http://inlinetube.com/Prop%20Valves/PR-106a.htm Inline said PR2106A would work with a drum/drum dual m/c setup and give me the electrical connection I need. But I'd still like to see what you did. Embry's article in the Riview archives mentions a dist. block for a '67 drum/drum Riv and gives specs to fashion a support bracket. And yes, a proportioning valve is not needed.

Much appreciated!

A drawing would be great - thanks! My brake guy looked at my car this morning just to see what's involved, and he said that I do need a distribution block - he's not going to let me drive off without a brake warning light being installed. So I contacted Inline Tube (thanks again for mentioning them!) and was advised to get this:

http://inlinetube.com/Prop%20Valves/PR-106a.htm Inline said PR2106A would work with a drum/drum dual m/c setup and give me the electrical connection I need. But I'd still like to see what you did. Embry's article in the Riview archives mentions a dist. block for a '67 drum/drum Riv and gives specs to fashion a support bracket. And yes, a proportioning valve is not needed.

Much appreciated!

If you got another tee like I did could you plumb the Brake warning lamp switch into the spare port without any additional blocks? I plugged mine with a plug but it is a pipe fitting, I suppose it would only work for the front brakes. Do these cars have a warning lamp? I'll try to post the drawing tonight....

Kaber

Here is a drawing I made of the conversion I did as a reference. Hope it helps...

Thanks, Kaber. I think this will be very helpful. Work was getting in the way of my hobbies so sorry for the delayed response - much appreciated, and I'll let you know next steps. Right now I'm waiting for critical parts to arrive.

Good brakes make all the difference in the world when it comes to driving these old cars. A couple of summers ago I finally popped for a disc conversion for my Power 4 wheel drum brake 1970 Chevelle. I rarely drove it because it was terrifying to stop or try to stop. Since the conversion I have put about 3000 miles on the car. Pretty good considering in the previous 33 years I only racked up about 20,000 miles!

The Riv I maintain belongs to my 18 year old son. The dual master cylinder gives me a small bit of piece of mind. It also really did improve the braking. The big drums haul that car down pretty fast. Its still a drum brake system but behaves almost as well as my Chevelle as far as stopping goes. As for stopping traffic, its the Riv all the way!!!! I have to admit I am kinda jealous!

Kaber

Yes, I closely followed the thread about your son helping out with the interior restoration and then swiping the Riv right out from under you for getting into Princeton, I think, right? Good for him!! As a senior communications director with UC San Diego, my hat is off to both of you. And yes, I'm getting the brakes in order on the Riv because relying on a single-cylinder system is not that comforting in a car that has so much weight and mass. Plus I'm spoiled from the brakes in my late-model Audi, which I know will always be better than anything I ever do for the Riv short of a Wilwood conversion, and even then... But I can at least get as close as I can, right? My son graduated about a year ago, and he's keeping a Subaru WRX on the road (although he does ask the Bank of Dad to finance things occasionally). In fact the BoD now supports six cars - in addition to the Riv, Audi, and WRX, there's a PT Cruiser, Jeep Cherokee, and a very nice 1967 Jag XKE coupe to keep my bank account in fighting shape, always looking for that next deposit.

Yes, I closely followed the thread about your son helping out with the interior restoration and then swiping the Riv right out from under you for getting into Princeton, I think, right? Good for him!! As a senior communications director with UC San Diego, my hat is off to both of you. And yes, I'm getting the brakes in order on the Riv because relying on a single-cylinder system is not that comforting in a car that has so much weight and mass. Plus I'm spoiled from the brakes in my late-model Audi, which I know will always be better than anything I ever do for the Riv short of a Wilwood conversion, and even then... But I can at least get as close as I can, right? My son graduated about a year ago, and he's keeping a Subaru WRX on the road (although he does ask the Bank of Dad to finance things occasionally). In fact the BoD now supports six cars - in addition to the Riv, Audi, and WRX, there's a PT Cruiser, Jeep Cherokee, and a very nice 1967 Jag XKE coupe to keep my bank account in fighting shape, always looking for that next deposit.

Actually we got the Riv before any schools responded. I made him a deal when he was little to be good and try his best and I would get him a car. He far surpassed my expectations!!! He wanted a Cougar, we couldn't find a decent one in our price range. We both kinda fell for a Riv at a cruise in and were lucky enough to come across his. We just got back from a Cruise in tonight. It was a great evening after a kinda trying day. Best of all I got to spend a great evening with my son in my Chevelle, checking out some cool cars! Tomorrow we're taking the Riviera to a different cruise in! I'm going to try to resurrect my Firebird for the Trans Am nationals coming up in a couple of weeks! Its been a busy car summer....my favorite kind!

Good to hear that! I received my "square-edged" booster o-ring in the mail from Booster Dewey today, so that's another part ready to go. Thanks for the tip!

Nice diagram!

I do brakes for a living. Most of today’s brakes are WAY over engineered for stopping a car. With that said basically today’s brakes are now the key component for accident prevention. It started with ABS then TCS, ESP (stability control) brake booster control and on and on. When I read the how to on the ROA I was like simple perfect way to add some peace of mind. Now with your diagram anyone with a single M/C should really consider this change.

I am ordering the tubes from in-line and M/C this weekend. Using the Bendix shoes from the rock.</SPAN>

Nice diagram!

I do brakes for a living. Most of today’s brakes are WAY over engineered for stopping a car. With that said basically today’s brakes are now the key component for accident prevention. It started with ABS then TCS, ESP (stability control) brake booster control and on and on. When I read the how to on the ROA I was like simple perfect way to add some peace of mind. Now with your diagram anyone with a single M/C should really consider this change.

I am ordering the tubes from in-line and M/C this weekend. Using the Bendix shoes from the rock.</SPAN>

Thanks! I was just looking the diagram over. When we got our Riv the front rubber lines had already been replaced. i made the sketch to sort out what I needed and to document what I did for future ref. I have used In-line products on all my projects and they have always fit well. From what I understand the Stainless lines are a bit harder to get sealed up around the fittings so I always use the standard replacements. They come with the wire armor already in place as well. I have had to call with questions and they are always helpful.

Good luck with your upgrade. Like I stated before, the brakes feel better than they did before. Maybe just psycological, whatever works!

Kaber

Here is a drawing I made of the conversion I did as a reference. Hope it helps...

Good diagram but I have question. It probably has a logical answer but I can't come up with it now. From the rear reservoir on the M/C you run a line to a tee. From that tee, you run one line to the rear brakes and the brake light switch from the other part of the tee. From the front reservoir, you run a line to a tee and then run a line to the front brakes and block off the other half of the tee.

Here's my question: Why didn't you run a single line all the way to the back brakes from the rear reservoir, then mount your brake light switch on the front tee where you've blocked it off?

Thanks,

Ed

Good diagram but I have question. It probably has a logical answer but I can't come up with it now. From the rear reservoir on the M/C you run a line to a tee. From that tee, you run one line to the rear brakes and the brake light switch from the other part of the tee. From the front reservoir, you run a line to a tee and then run a line to the front brakes and block off the other half of the tee.

Here's my question: Why didn't you run a single line all the way to the back brakes from the rear reservoir, then mount your brake light switch on the front tee where you've blocked it off?

Thanks,

Ed

Good Question Ed. I did that because I was using the pre formed brake line kit from in-line tube and the tube would not reach the M/C. I prob could have used a fitting instead of a Tee on the front line but I knew the tee would work and what size to get from in-line. The only lines I had to make were from where the original tee was to the front and back res on the M/C. Any luck with the washer jar and Drag link?

Thanks, Kaber

Kaber,

I looked at the washer bottles. The lids are intact, but the small "lift tab" on each is split but still attached. Neither one has the filter for the end of the hose. The center link is just lying there.

Send me a PM with your thoughts.

Ed