1951 76R Roadmaster project

Dent removal slide hammer with screw tip used to pull out fenders works wonders...

Got that 3rd left-side freeze plug out. No additional tools. Also went back to DVAP today. Been basically exactly a year (last Saturday in October, 1 year ago). Before I went, I reviewed the photos I posted here:

http://forums.aaca.org/f115/dvap-casa-grande-location-361557.html

The very last photo - is a 2-door hardtop. Since then, I got the reason for this thread - a 2-door hardtop. Mine needs the radio antenna. Found that same car and bought the antenna today.

- as-purchased. After a couple of minutes of straightening, I got the segments to slide into each other.

- here it is compared with a non-hardtop antenna. The base angle is different. The hardtop antenna tilts up more.

- some other items. Couple of rims & bumper center section. In speaking with the guys at the yard, I can understand how they offer lower prices to walk-in customers vs. responding to internet requests. By going there, I take the time to locate the parts and then have them send their guy over to pull the part. With the internet, they have to spend the time hunting to see if they even have the part. They said they were very busy with all makes & models, and are still actively acquiring more cars. I thought prices were quite fair.

Good deals Eric and keep up the pace.

Thanks David. Took a chance on something else - though I have the parts book & try to study what interchanges before bidding/buying, I took a chance that paid off. The car needed the front door power window close-out panel. This is a little more involved than just a rectangle with some screw holes - it's got pressed depressions in it that are attach points for part of the mechanism. The smaller forward cover plate is just a flat piece, so that's pretty easy to make. Found a '52 Cadillac 4-door being parted on ebay. People went absolutely nuts for basically the entire power window system. Though they were offering the 2-piece front-door power window close outs, someone else already bid. So I took a chance and bid on the 1-piece back door close-out plates. Turns out, these appear to be exactly the same except they add a small clip to hold a wire or something. That's easy enough to remove, so 1 more piece of the puzzle down...

- the plate, power window door close-out, rear door, 1952 Cadillac.

- where it goes on the 2-door Buick...

Nice progress, keeps the project moving along.

Keith

An interchange book is always a great help when it comes to these tasks in cross over pieces and such. Buick and Cadillacs were always a lot closer than people would initially think.

This week worked on measuring those rims - well, not just the 2 that I got at DVAP, but also pulled all 4 off the 76R and 1 off the 41D. The 1 off the 41D is "the reference". Two things I wanted from that - to get the outboard side offset to the center of the rim, and the inboard side offset to the center of the rim. Since the 41D was not messed with in any significant way, I'm assuming those are the original 6" rims on there. So with those 2 dimensions, I can determine rim width without needing the tire removed. So I measured the other 6 rims and found 2 that were the same as the one from the 41D. So that gives me the second thing I was looking for - a rim to use for the spare on the 41D. The down side is I now know that I only have 1 rim that is actually the correct size for the 76R (6.5" width). I'm thinking use the 6" rim that won't go with the 41D as the spare for the 76R, and then there's 3 5.5" rims that I don't really need for anything. The plus side is I now have inboard and outboard-side offset dimensions I can use at DVAP (or wherever) to sort out 3 (or maybe 4) more 6.5" rims for the 76R. Anyone know what used the 5.5" rims?

The 5.5" rims were used on 55 Specials (40 series) and others. Used on the same axle they will not be visually different than wider rims on the other axle and will perform well. I have mixed them in the past since the 5.5's are almost always true vs used 6" rims where only 1/3 of the examples are true. After refinishing the rims you choose and mounting new tires have them static balanced with the weights only on the inside. They will look better and the balance will be as good as dynamically balanced with the weights scattered on both sides.

Willie

Thanks Willie. Got the trunk emblem cleaned up - the outside of it anyway. Still need to clean up the lens retainer clips, reinstall the lock, make up a spring for the keyhole cover emblem... Anyway, here's painting 2 examples of the swing-away keyhole cover. Why 2? Because similar to my experience with improving the appearance of this same part on the 41D, for this car I'm using parts from (at least) 4 different sources to make up the best trunk handle / trunk lock assembly.

Keyhole cover emblems being painted - the lower one in the photos was so shiny I debated just leaving it...

Temporarily assembled to show what it looks like on the outside...

Your emblems look great!

Thanks Jeff. Checking the link to your 76C blog, it looks like you've found some nice NOS items. Unfortunately my car had some diassembly and lost / missing parts, so I'm trying to find what I can before really taking things apart. Will you be keeping the hydraulics for the windows? I was looking at converting those to electric. I'll post a question on that in the post war forum.

Got back to Casa Grande today. Found what may have been the last 4 usable 6.5" vintage Buick rims that they had. There were none loose - all of these had to be pulled. One bonus with that is they let me keep the bolts. Two of the wheels were on the front axle of a '49 that had been hot-rodded. It had a V8, open driveshaft, 4-link rear end (with completely different wheels on it). Yes, the blue rim has a ding that I'll straighten out. With the one 6.5 that was on the car, that gives me 5 to work with. The 4 from the yard today all have the clips for the "dog dish" hubcaps. This car runs the full hubcaps, so the clips need to go.

Hi Eric. Hope your project is going well. Sorry I didn't respond about the windows on my project. I am keeping the hydraulic setup. Had the solenoid valve and firewall pump rebuilt by Hydro-e-lectric (http://www.hydroe.com/). They did a fantastic job.

Look forward to your next update.

Jeff

Not much to update on this one yet. I got the 41D running pretty well recently, so I've been driving that around. I'll pick up parts for the 76R as opportunity arises. The closer I look, the more I find was removed. I'll probably make another trip to the yard in Casa Grande - I need the window "up stop" part that sits on top of the left-hand door structure, under the trim part. This part also holds the inside "fuzzy strip". It appears to be common to any of the 2-doors over a couple of model years. Also noticed that the heat exchanger is gone from the defroster housing. I was motivated to get to the Casa Grande yard twice towards the end of last year because we never know when the yard is going to sell out & just crush everything... They don't have much in the way of '50-'53 Buicks, but for things like these few things I listed, it's definitely easier than trying to find and invest in (more than one) parts car. The heat exchanger will come from a Roadmaster, the door part from any 2-door hardtop. There's at least one of each of these cars at Casa Grande.

It's major yard-work season out here in the desert right now, so my Saturday mornings to go to the salvage yard have been taken up with "fun" stuff like spreading 15 tons of gravel... Reworking irrigation lines... Moving dirt... Time to get the yard in shape because I don't want to have anything to do with it when it gets hot outside... On the plus side, I won't ever spend a moment mowing grass - there isn't any... I haven't missed getting up on Saturday morning to mow grass for the 10 years I've lived out here...

Got started with wiring. I posted a request for photos on the Postwar section to maybe see a little of the routing, in particular how it goes from the firewall grommet, down the firewall, splits out for the neutral switch / brake light switch (reverse light switch?), the hi/lo beam switch, jumps forward to the inner fender, wraps up and forward to the voltage regulator, and jumps over to the generator. The part that goes right along the firewall above/behind the engine and down to the carb switch relay and down to the starter seems more obvious, but even there, somewhere there's a break out for the carb starter switch & the ignition coil. Anyway, got all but 3 wires identified, though 2 of the wires that I did identify have the same size and color code - parking light and brake light. Obviously, those two have different functions, and I should be able to trace which is which with some voltage on the system. There's three 16g white with red crossing tracer - I can't find in the diagram. Anyway, I believe I positively identified all 10 or so that have to do with ignition, starting, and charging. I plan to order additional wire in the original size and color code. Rhode Island wiring doesn't have the harness for this car, but there's a company in California that does - for $1100+. I should be able to duplicate the firewall-forward portion for much less than that. By starting with only the dozen or so needed for start/ignition/charging, might be $100-200 worth of wire & terminals.

Your on the right tract. Yes, do your own wires as long as you can get the right color codes, knitted sleeves and correct ends and loops, then go for it. However, nothing screams crapola more than a crimp tool job using a bag of Napa fittings with the cheap blue, yellow and red plastic collars.

Another thread on Postwar got me started on pulling the hydroelectric tubes. Got all but one out. These are likely headed to Inline Tube so that replicas can be made.

How nice that you got them out in one piece like that. Are you going to paint the ends and connectors so that they are easy to reattach and orient when/if returned?

Hadn't thought about that. Just sending out for scanning at IT, per a request from a forum member for these. I'm still not decided on putting this back or going electric, but electric has a few things going for it (specific to my car):

1. I don't have the original seat anyway, so was going to look at a later (12V electric) power seat.

2. Restoring the hydro would cost more than the electric motors for the windows, which is all that would be hydro.

3. Converting to 12V would also facilitate adding a modern AC, which I think I want around here.

Then there's the "usual" 12 V reasons - sound system, brighter headlights, alternator instead of generator, etc.

If I do put the hydro back, I'd use a fresh set of tubes from IT. The tubes along the firewall & front windows are probably serviceable, but the under-seat / back window ones I would not count on to hold pressure. There's a "rust clog" or something in at least one of these tubes.

I don't know if Inline Tube would give you anything ( like a free set) for providing these as templates. If so, regardless of going to electric, you should grab a set just in case.

Got all 11 tubes of the electrohydraulics out & sent to IT for scanning. Here's what the doors look like:

Tube for the driver's door - attaches directly to the cylinder.

- This is the clip inside the door that the top of the loop of the tube fits into. The tube was wrapped with a bunch of tape - maybe to fit tight into the clip, or maybe to resist wearing on the clip, or maybe both.

- Right-hand door. Looks like the same cylinder/lift mechanism - cylinder port is on the outboard side, so there's a hose that wraps around the back to meet up with the tube on the inboard side.

- tube for the right-hand door. This is a mirror of the tube on the other side. Same kind of tape wrapping as well.

- fittings for the system. 4 elbows, 3 tees, and 1 union.

These are great photos. Thanks for sharing!

We agree. Keeping the hydraulic system would be top shelf and the way to proceed. They are real cool when redone and working correctly. An original seat should be sourced and most likely not that scarce to find. Going the stealth 12 volt route using Power Gens single wire alternator that looks like a generator would work thereby keeping the externals for the foot starter, fender well volt regulator and the rest of the spark gang all the while looking good and original.

Wow. These are the pics I was looking for. I guessed kind of ok, got the hook on the seat tube right, missed the elbows on the rear tubes. and thought there was one long tube from toe board to center of rear seat. I had one door loop and guessed the other to be a mirror image. Maybe its misery loving company but I'm excited about you sending you tubes off for duplication. I suggest having them sent back for your reference. I had my hoses copied and returned.

I caught HydroElectric's Christmas sale and got my cylinders and hoses for about $850. I think you can use the 12 volt 53 cylinders if you decide to go that way. I'm trying to piece together the door window assemblies now and have most of the parts. I just ordered a window channel kit from Bob's along with his tiny screws for the fuzzy sweepers. Do you try to drill for these or is there a trick to hitting some of the old staple holes? In the rear quarters these strips attach to stainless. Drilling 1/16 inch holes in stainless sounds tricky. Thanks again for your help.

Pat

Yes, I expect to get the tubes back. I sent them for scanning for Jeff's convertible project, actually. I'm not anywhere near needing them for my project yet, but when the time comes, maybe IT can just bring up the files & make some more - or maybe add them to their catalog.

Ok - tubes have been scanned. If you need a set, Inline Tube said to ask about the '51 Buick - I'm not clear what model, but I understood they could retrieve the data for these by make & year. For the 76R, that's 11 tubes. They said current price would be $500 for the basic (steel?) material and $600 in Stainless. So another data point if you're bending your own, bent your own, or don't have them in your car to use as a pattern. I didn't order a set now, so I won't be able to say how well they did.

Thank you for your diligence. I'll bet they can make a fine set off of your patterns. Classic Tube offered me a set for $200 but there were 12 tubes and they fit Caddys ,they could not provide pics. They did provide lengths of 49, 67,81,27,37,31,45,12,29,12,29,67. I kept trying to see if these were right as I bent the 6 that I needed.

Pat

Was out of town for the past 2 weeks, but an ebay lot including an ignition switch with key arrived. I took a chance that the glove box lock and trunk lock in the lot also were the same key, and they were. So when those are installed, it will only need a key for the doors. Tried the ignition switch key cylinder removal per the shop manual on the new-to-me part, and that was pretty easy. They ignition switch in the car not only has no key, but the chromed plate on the end of the key cylinder is missing. The process for removal without key involves drilling a hole (in the exact right place) and inserting a paper clip (filed to a wedge shape) to press on a feature you can't see... Played with this on the new-to-me part and concluded that I would have low probability of getting this done quicker/easier than just swapping out the whole ignition switch assembly.

Got the old ignition switch assembly and dashboard surround plate out. Got the new dashboard surround plate in. Still need to move the wires to the new ignition switch and get that in, then the ignition switch will have a key...

Ignition switch with key is done.

- back side of the dashboard plate and key switch attach points.

- back side of the key switch.

- front side of the key switch, key cylinder removed.

- key cylinder.

- key cylinder. The brass-colored rectangle moves outwards when the key is removed to stop the cylinder from turning.

- front plate in dashboard.

- switch and key cylinder installed.

Just like new!

Great progress as we have been keeping track as well. BTW: For Buicks of this vintage including my 57's, the door key opens everything including the ignition. Just take the door lock out and get the tumblers rekeyed to the key that you now have leaving you with just one key as it should be. I have read the "thinking" behind the Locked/On/Off setup was if you wanted a valet to park your car but not get into the trunk and glove box then you just took your key with you and they would only have the On/Off option to move the car around by using the winged face off the switch.

"Started" the wiring a couple of months ago. Made copies of the schematic at different levels of enlargement.

Part of making it larger was to cut off the "back end" of the vehicle, since the area I'm working on is ahead of the firewall only.

In fact, the entire harness is chopped right at the firewall pass-through grommet.

I also collected close-up photos of other Roadmasters - most from the forum (by request), and a few that I found on the forum and elsewhere. Also helps that I have the 40-series '51 in my garage next to the Roadmaster.

Then, I numbered the wires on the schematic.

Then, I made a table based on these numbers. Columns in the table include wire gauge, a from/to statement (couple of words of what connects to what), type of terminal on each end (and a few have 3 ends!), length, and color, and catalog part number for the terminals.

Then, I pulled the firewall panel and unwrapped a couple of inches of the harness behind the firewall. I identified all but 3 of the wires by size and color per the schematic, and I'm guessing the other 3 might be for the hydraulic pump for the power windows / seat (those don't appear on the schematic - at least not the main schematic). I put masking tape "flags" on each wire with its number and a word or two of its function.

Then, I compared the table to the vintage wire supply catalog that I chose to work from. They didn't have all the exact same color / tracer combos, so I picked ones that were close. They did have equivalent sizes for all of the terminals, though when I got them, they weren't exactly the same, especially in the end to be crimped.

Then, I found crimp tools online. The hardest one was the 10 gauge uninsulated flag terminal ratcheting crimper. Y'all search on that for a while.

(I only found it by hitting "back" on a website that had a listing for a 16-22ga uninsulated flag terminal ratcheting crimper, and THEN it appeared!)

So I ordered 3 crimpers - 2 sizes for the flag terminals, and 1 more for straight-thru terminals. I already have 2 wire strippers, and fortunately one was big enough to have 10ga on it.

Add to this some things I already had - a supply of shrink sleeve, a heat gun, a solder iron, solder, wire cutters, etc.

There's a lot of tools that go into this - if you don't want to nick strands or have terminals that fall off.

Then, after I had the crimp tools nailed down, I ordered the wire and terminals (no point ordering this if I couldn't crimp it!)

Got a couple of wires done, and so far, the results with the large-gauge flag terminal crimper have been great.

How to do the 40 or so wires? Build 1 wire at a time. Don't just go stringing a bunch of stuff all over the place. 1 wire, complete routing, through the wire harness hanger clips, and terminals on both ends (or solder, as the case may be).

I haven't got to the point of wrapping the loom, but I also got non-adhesive vinyl (like electrical tape, but without the glue). This was what was original on my car (as I found behind the firewall panel).

Though I have seen some photos of cars with fancier-looking woven outer "looming", my car didn't have this. Not saying it wasn't original on '51 Roadmasters, it just wasn't original to mine.

Been doing 1-2 wires per day. Only takes 11 to get it to start / run / charge. I only bought parts for these 11 wires, plus some extra terminals.

I'll go back and add the lights & horn wires as a next-phase to the project. On the plus side, all light / horn wires are along the top of the LH inner fender, and some cross to the RH of the car along the radiator frame, but after start / ignition / charge is in place, there's nothing else along the firewall or up the right side of the engine.

- voltage regulator. Ok, there's one that jumps off this to the horn relay, but not doing horns yet...

- generator. Those 2 black wires are different sizes!

- generator and voltage regulator area. Only 2 wires go back to the rest of the sytem - I believe they are the wires that send charge to the battery and the other one is the voltage sense that disables the starter.

- around the steering column. The blue-flagged ones in the lower right are the headlight dimmer switch. Need the bullet terminals for the neutral switch.

- Left-hand firewall. Near as I can figure, I've got 2 wires that bypass the firewall opening. I believe in the original, they go into the firewall in one bundle just to turn around and come back out in the other.

- Leads for carb starter switch. Will add the terminals when I know exactly where the carb is.

- Starter solenoid relay.

- Starter and ignition coil. Will add the terminal for the coil - when there's a coil!

And that's it for start / charge / ignition. Will cover almost all of this with over-wrap once the lighting + horn wires are in place, because they end up in the same bundle along the left inner fender.

Connected up the 41D (car with known good 6V battery) with jumper cables. Ignition switch on. Tried the headlight switch - obviously, no front lights, because there's no wires there yet. No tail lights. Didn't have the sockets open to check for voltage, so don't know if that's just bulbs or what. Got the map lights under the radio to come on - so power is going through the ignition switch and headlight switch. The fuel level gauge also pops up - on checking the 41D, this is the only one of the 4 gauges that moves just by turning the key on. Then tried starter. Twisted the wires together at the neutral switch (need to get the bullet terminals for that), and touched the 2 wires together where the carb switch goes. Nothing. Turned switch back off, disconnected jumper cables. Pulled the starter relay off the firewall. Tested this with a separate 6V DC supply. Nothing. Opened the cover, to see what's in there and applied voltage again - nothing. So I'll need either another 855 starter relay, or get this one rebuilt.

Also will try a more direct approach - jumper across the starter terminals with a screwdriver, to see if the starter would run on its own without the relay.

Other items - cleaned up and repainted the voltage regulator cover. Washed the loose dirt accumulation off the valve cover. Found the "this engine equipped with hydraulic lifters" decal on the valve cover - I'll add a photo - it's not neatly placed like I've seen in so many "restored" photos...

Eric, apply 6v to the red wire on the starter relay. That should make the solenoid click and engage the starter. Open the starter relay and file the points and with a center punch, punch at each rivet edge a few times. If that wakes it up, you can clean and solder later.

Willie

Thanks, I'll give it a try - true, there is +6V on that terminal...

No good. I'm guessing corrosion has got to the coil - this wasn't as well sealed and clean-looking inside as the voltage regulator. I can find the 12V version of this relay from Bob's, but no 6V.

Anyone have a 6V one? I'd move the one over from the 41D just to check, but it's farther down on the firewall, almost under the defroster core & behind the battery...

Connected the cars together again with jumper cables. Got the starter to spin by jumping across the 2 big bolts on the starter solenoid with a screwdriver. So that's good. Got the solenoid to jump by pinching together the red and yellow wires with insulated pliers, but there's not enough power via jumper cables alone to then have the starter turn the engine. But showing these 2 functions on the starter are working is promising...

Progress is being made, Eric, and that's a good thing! If I understand an earlier post about generator wires, I think that you were asking which goes where? The heavy one would go to the armature, and the lighter guage to the field terminal.

Nice to see your work, thanks.

Keith

Pretty good week this week. Got an order from Bob's - oil filter, intake manifold ring seals, plug wires, coil, coil bracket, valve cover gasket.

Removed the old oil filter, suctioned out the filter housing, pulled filter housing off the engine and wiped it out. MUCH cleaner than the 41D, so that's promising.

The new filter from Bob's came with the filter lid gasket, so no more wondering where that was going to come from. Scraped the old gasked out from the lid, and installed the new filter and lid gasket.

Installed the coil bracket and coil. Installed the plug wires. Put the intake manifold seals in place.

Got out the intake manifold gasket that I had bought a while back, and it doesn't fit! So will order the correct gasket.

Put the space heater under the engine and let it heat up for a while. Drained the engine oil - got about 6 quarts out. Looks pretty good - dark, but not thick at all.

Also during the week, found a NOS starter relay on eBay, so that's on the way. (When do you buy a NOS starter relay that's only for 1951-52, plus '53 6V? When you see one!)

Went to DVAP in Casa Grande this morning. Inquired about a 2-door front seat. The price they gave, they can hang onto their few 2-door front seats. (The price they gave, I'll either go later-model, or buy a brand-new 2-door seat.) The original seat is missing from the car anyway, and the seat that I have is a 2-door seat, but the right seat back is missing some major structure. Doubt anyone is selling just the right seat back... Might take a look at the left to see if such a piece could be fabbed, but it's probably a pretty deep stamping.

Took some photos while there of specific parts of the wire routing in order to move that along. Also got the left door window up-stop and inside fuzzy-holder part from a burned-out '52.

Anyway, will get some new oil, the starter relay installed, the manifold gasket, manifolds installed, then it's rebuild the carb, borrow the battery from the 41D, and see if it runs...