1925 Clutch Issues

There have been a couple of threads recently regarding difficulty changing gears. I also recently removed a gearbox and clutch from a spare 24 Master engine I have and found the disc linings to be nicely saturated with oil. After reading a post by Dibarlaw in regard to removing oil from saturated disc linings I read my Motor Car Operation and Care manual and it stated to pour 1 to 2 litres of gasoline into the flywheel bell housing and turn the engine over. I think I would want a fire extinguisher close at hand. Included a few Photo,s of a multi disc clutch for those not familiar with them. Pic 2 shows releasing the tension of the spring using clamps. Pic 4 shows the lined disc on the left and the unlined disc on the right, the unlined discs are only 2mm thick and can warp causing a shuddering clutch. The 5 lined clutch discs run on the pins on the flywheel seen in pic 1, and the 5 driven plates that do not have linings run on the clutch hub pic 3. The lined discs are separated by the unlined discs. The spring holds all the plates tightly together so they all spin together, and the cluster gear at the bottom of the gear box continues turning. When the clutch is depressed the unlined driven plates separate from the lined plates and the cluster gear stops or slows turning allowing gear changes. If the clutch plates are saturated or gummed up they don,t separate properly and the driven discs continue spinning. The last pic shows 26 discs which are different to 25 but still operate in the same way. If I have made any errors here please jump in and correct.

Thanks mate, really useful information - hoping to get my issues sorted over the long weekend

Some more photo,s. Pic 3 Newly lined discs for a 26

is relining something you can get done here in Aus relatively easily?

After fighting with the sticking clutch on my 1925 Standard since I bought it over 2 years ago it finally worked as it should today! I was preparing to take the car about 44 miles to our Mason-Dixon car show in Mechanicsburg Pa. this weekend. Over the last 3 weeks I redid the cobbled brakes, installed new tires, repainted wheels and installed my newly re-cored radiator.(This was to combat the chronic overheating). Today I thought I would take it out for a 15 mile shakedown run. The wife and I started out and it went right into gear! Drove about 2 miles and stopped to fill the gas tank. Not a drip from the radiator! Moto-meter still at "cool motor "after 15 min of driving. Did some stop and go traffic for another mile, with each shift not a clash up or down! Drove another 3 miles out into the country.We were truly experiencing a form of Buick bliss! Downshifted from 3rd to 2nd as we approached a route 30 stop light, slipped right into 2nd without even double clutching!!!! Magical! Downshifted into first (quiet as a mouse)as the light turned green. Put out my hand to signal a left turn onto rush hour route 30, pulled away in first no problem, shifted to second..............NOTHING..........Tried all gears.......... NOTHING...... The clutch was gone! So my 25 will miss the show again. (Last year it foamed up and overheated at the city limits.)

I had heard the stories about dying trees putting out a great crop of fruit just before they died. Did not know it also applied to clutches. When home I took off the inspection plate and the interior had an abundance of what resembled shredded burlap. So now that axle will finally have to come out.

Rod, I really appreciate your photos and the explanation of how things work in this clutch assembly. Larry and I had the chance to visit earlier this evening. He was telling me how he and the wife were motoring along in their Buick automobile when the clutch decided that it didn't want to clutch anymore. I have a clutch assembly that looks very similar to what you have in your photos. I will post photos later today. I picked this up several years ago at the Chickasha Swap Meet. The fellow told me that he thought it was for an early to mid twenties Buick. My reference material collection is a little thin when it gets into the middle twenties, however, I have the teens models covered pretty well. Rod, here is my question for you - do you know if the Standard and Master models used the same part numbered assemblies? Would you happen to know what models used the same part numbered assemblies? As I said, I will post some photos later on today. Somehow I just know Larry ain't jumpin' up and down with happiness at the thought of pulling the rear axle and transmission to rebuild the clutch, but, we gotta get him up and running and back on the road with his Buick.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas aka Doo Dah

Here are some scan from 1925 Std.and also from 1925 Master parts book.The first two pictures are Std.models,the next 4 are Master models.

Nothing can be used from 1926 and later clutches to fit on 1925 and earlier.

Leif in Sweden.

Terry, I always thought the Master would have a heavier duty clutch than the Standard, It has been 30 years since I sold my 25 standard and I have never seen the two clutches side by side, but looking at Leif,s scans it appears the master has five discs where as the standard has four discs. The lined and unlined discs both have the same parts number, so looks like they are inter changeable. I have not had need to remove my 1920 clutch. but would assume 1920 to 1923 would be the same as they have the same motor. If Leif has a parts book for the early 20,s It would be good to see if the clutches are the same. as the 25. I know the 24 and 25 master clutches are the same, and the 25 and 26 standard clutches are different

Rod

1919-1920s H and K clutch parts to compare with the others.

Leif in Sweden.

Larry, Leif, and Rod, here are the photos of the clutch assembly that I have. One can readily see the difference between the '26 models version and the earlier models application shown in the photos. This assembly that I have has been apart at some point in time and will need to be taken apart again and cleaned before any installation. Based on what you see in these photos, does it look like this will work in Larry's '25 Standard?

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas America

Thanks for those scans Leif. It looks like the same clutch was used from 1919 through to the 1925 master. ( same part number). The 25 standard has a different part number but the discs seem to be the same, so Larry should be able to use those discs if his have been damaged in the clutch failure. Terry that clutch looks the same as my master clutch with the five lined discs. Yes it has been apart as it has been reassembled incorrectly, looks very clean, probably degreased when apart. Larry let me know how many discs your clutch has when it is out. (just interested)

Rod

Terry:

The kids left the building! So school is over and now I can attend to more important things. The first picture is of the loaner clutch from the 1924-45 BCA member David Stratton, which was for me to study. It has 5 guide plates and 10 lined surfaces. This is the outside cover toward the throw-out bearing. This lining is now what is missing on mine. 2nd photo is what I found after removing the bottom cover. Last, that 8" piece which is all that was left of what was on that outer plate. Again, as discussed my clutch has only 4 guide plates and should have 8 linings. So I believe that is what I will need. Of course I don't know what the metal plates actually look like yet until I get them out.

Now have to stage things to pull that axle.. Hope you enjoy your ride in the "20" today!

Larry

The project is going slow and unsteady. I was finally able to drop the axle last night. Staging the jack stands and the 2X4 & 3/4" plywood Boxes I had made to raise things up was a bit scary. (Made them to do the same thing on the 1937 back in 1987). I hoped never to have to use them again! All staged then the diagonal truss rod on one side hanging up on the face of the right jack stand when the axle made it's descending arc. Had do redo it twice. Today I will probably start uncoupling things. I have NOS linings coming from Terry Weigand and a possible used clutch from a fellow I had helped with his 25-25 in Canada. Just has to verify that it is for a 1925 standard. They are all the same from 1918 to 1925. Except the 4 cylinder and standards have 8 linings and the larger 6s have 10.

Always, once something is apart the need to do other things arise. So any suggestions as to what to do or check while I have the transmission out. I plan on making a new felt engine rear seal, torque ball seal, check pilot bushing etc. Also check all the starter gear mechanisms. Also there are locator plates riveted to the axle housing for the shackle blocks. These 1/4" thick riveted plates are loose and leak rear end oil. A lot. Since the shackle block is a grease lubed fitting any one come up with an idea how to seal this leaking?

What I did not post on my other thread about my out of round rims was that while trying to get the spare on the right rear...... OOPs.... the first time in 40 years I knocked a car off a jack stand. Thought I broke my wrist as the fender came down on it. Just a burse. The car dropped only about 5".

More fun than the law allows!

Larry, I can definitely sympathize with you during this procedure. Later this Summer I am going to go through this same thing for the very same reason - rebuild the clutch on my '16. The only difference being is that my car has a cone clutch. Seeing your photos posted here jogged my memory about something that a friend of mine who has a '16 D-45 told me. He said to be sure and remove the tires and rims from the wheels for more rearward clearance and movement of the axle assembly. Another plus to this is there is less weight to try and manhandle. Sorry I didn't remember to tell you that the other night when we talked. I totally understand about this getting the chassis blocked up high enough to do what has to be done. I went through that when I had the new wheels made for the '16. There just isn't any real good place on the frame rails to rest on substantial blocking. Looks like you are doing a swell job of things so far. Take lots of notes - I will want to visit with you about things when you are done.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas America

The project is going slow and unsteady. I was finally able to drop the axle last night. Staging the jack stands and the 2X4 & 3/4" plywood Boxes I had made to raise things up was a bit scary. (Made them to do the same thing on the 1937 back in 1987). I hoped never to have to use them again! All staged then the diagonal truss rod on one side hanging up on the face of the right jack stand when the axle made it's descending arc. Had do redo it twice. Today I will probably start uncoupling things. I have NOS linings coming from Terry Weigand and a possible used clutch from a fellow I had helped with his 25-25 in Canada. Just has to verify that it is for a 1925 standard. They are all the same from 1918 to 1925. Except the 4 cylinder and standards have 8 linings and the larger 6s have 10.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]254368[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]254369[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]254370[/ATTACH]

Always, once something is apart the need to do other things arise. So any suggestions as to what to do or check while I have the transmission out. I plan on making a new felt engine rear seal, torque ball seal, check pilot bushing etc. Also check all the starter gear mechanisms. Also there are locator plates riveted to the axle housing for the shackle blocks. These 1/4" thick riveted plates are loose and leak rear end oil. A lot. Since the shackle block is a grease lubed fitting any one come up with an idea how to seal this leaking?

What I did not post on my other thread about my out of round rims was that while trying to get the spare on the right rear...... OOPs.... the first time in 40 years I knocked a car off a jack stand. Thought I broke my wrist as the fender came down on it. Just a burse. The car dropped only about 5".

More fun than the law allows!

good to see I wasn't the only one that had those issues! Goes without saying that the transmission itself is damn heavy and you have poor access and it has practically no good jacking points on it - I used an engine hoist poking through the door in the end and it made it much easier when I put it back on.

I wonder if anyone actually still has the jack they show in the manual that lifts the two sides of the axel together

I did the clutch on my 15 several times. (Me doing too much slipping in parades as the car is too fast in low.) I found it much easier and safer to pull the engine rather than the rear end. Replacing the broken axles did require pulling the rear end. I used heavy blocking and jack stands to get done that time. Sounds like you are getting good advice Larry. Keep on the straight and narrow and do not be rocking the old girl while she is in the air. No matter what, it is just not worth getting hurt working on it. Go to a local saw mill and get solid blocking to make it as safe as possible. It is cheep insurance compared to any injury that could happen in having the car fall. Think Safety first. Dandy Dave!

A couple of years back I had to pull the rear on the '28 to work on the clutch. I found I didn't have to lift the car as high if I removed the tires and rolled the rear on the rims.

Dave

The project is going slow and unsteady. I was finally able to drop the axle last night. Staging the jack stands and the 2X4 & 3/4" plywood Boxes I had made to raise things up was a bit scary. (Made them to do the same thing on the 1937 back in 1987). I hoped never to have to use them again! All staged then the diagonal truss rod on one side hanging up on the face of the right jack stand when the axle made it's descending arc. Had do redo it twice. Today I will probably start uncoupling things. I have NOS linings coming from Terry Weigand and a possible used clutch from a fellow I had helped with his 25-25 in Canada. Just has to verify that it is for a 1925 standard. They are all the same from 1918 to 1925. Except the 4 cylinder and standards have 8 linings and the larger 6s have 10.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]254368[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]254369[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]254370[/ATTACH]

Always, once something is apart the need to do other things arise. So any suggestions as to what to do or check while I have the transmission out. I plan on making a new felt engine rear seal, torque ball seal, check pilot bushing etc. Also check all the starter gear mechanisms. Also there are locator plates riveted to the axle housing for the shackle blocks. These 1/4" thick riveted plates are loose and leak rear end oil. A lot. Since the shackle block is a grease lubed fitting any one come up with an idea how to seal this leaking?

What I did not post on my other thread about my out of round rims was that while trying to get the spare on the right rear...... OOPs.... the first time in 40 years I knocked a car off a jack stand. Thought I broke my wrist as the fender came down on it. Just a burse. The car dropped only about 5".

More fun than the law allows!

just to add a bit more to my previous post - when I jacked the springs I used a bottle jack to give me more room to move rather than a trolley jack

There have been a couple of threads recently regarding difficulty changing gears. I also recently removed a gearbox and clutch from a spare 24 Master engine I have and found the disc linings to be nicely saturated with oil. After reading a post by Dibarlaw in regard to removing oil from saturated disc linings I read my Motor Car Operation and Care manual and it stated to pour 1 to 2 litres of gasoline into the flywheel bell housing and turn the engine over. I think I would want a fire extinguisher close at hand. Included a few Photo,s of a multi disc clutch for those not familiar with them. Pic 2 shows releasing the tension of the spring using clamps. Pic 4 shows the lined disc on the left and the unlined disc on the right, the unlined discs are only 2mm thick and can warp causing a shuddering clutch. The 5 lined clutch discs run on the pins on the flywheel seen in pic 1, and the 5 driven plates that do not have linings run on the clutch hub pic 3. The lined discs are separated by the unlined discs. The spring holds all the plates tightly together so they all spin together, and the cluster gear at the bottom of the gear box continues turning. When the clutch is depressed the unlined driven plates separate from the lined plates and the cluster gear stops or slows turning allowing gear changes. If the clutch plates are saturated or gummed up they don,t separate properly and the driven discs continue spinning. The last pic shows 26 discs which are different to 25 but still operate in the same way. If I have made any errors here please jump in and correct.

I had trouble with the clutch on my 1928 Roadster ( many years ago now!! ) and discovered the following.

If you look at the cultch plates there are a number of fingers around the circumference which slide into corresponding slots on the flywheel. There are similar teeth on the steel discs between the clutch plates but they are on the inside and slip over the clutch hub.

Over years of use the fingers on the clutch discs had chattered and left grooves in the slides of the flywheels. This had also occurred on the clutch hub.

These surfaces should be smooth to allow the clutch plates to slide back and forth. What was occurring on mine was the outer edge of the plates were sticking in these grooves and not sliding.

The solution was to file the surface on the inside of the flywheel grooves and the outside of the grooves on the clutch hub just to enable the fingers on the clutch plates and driven discs to slide freely. I also sparingly lubricated these slide areas with suitable hi temp lubricant.

Yours may not exhibit this problem but while the clutch is out it's worth checking to see if those grooves are smooth or have been distorted by chattering cultch and driven plates.

when you get them relined (or reline them yourself?) is there a more modern material that you put on them or is it just a direct replacement? I assume that there is also no commonality for the clutch itself that can be swapped out for a more reliable design?

If you have acces to a clutch with the right splines that will fit on your old gear box splines you can fix that and have a newer "complete" singel clutch .A friend of mine told me in the 1970s that he had "changed" to a newer type on his 1927-25.But of course a lot of work to do that.

Leif in Sweden.

If you have acces to a clutch with the right splines that will fit on your old gear box splines you can fix that and have a newer "complete" singel clutch .A friend of mine told me in the 1970s that he had "changed" to a newer type on his 1927-25.But of course a lot of work to do that.

Leif in Sweden.

more of a curiosity than a plan - I was watching one of the car restoration shows where they changed over the clutch in a daimler dart and was wonder if that was something people ever did to these cars. Is relining something for the pro's or is it a job you can do at home?

hidden hunter, These clutches are nearly 90 years old, I don,t think any new clutch would last that long. I would take my discs to a Brake and Clutch shop to get relined. Just ensure the linings are the right thickness and file the grooves and splines in the flywheel and clutch hub as 50jetback outlines. Also replace the felt rear engine seal so your new linings don,t get covered in oil.

hidden hunter, These clutches are nearly 90 years old, I don,t think any new clutch would last that long. I would take my discs to a Brake and Clutch shop to get relined. Just ensure the linings are the right thickness and file the grooves and splines in the flywheel and clutch hub as 50jetback outlines. Also replace the felt rear engine seal so your new linings don,t get covered in oil.

sounds like a plan, I assume then it's not a specialist job and that nay brake/clutch place should be able to do it? or is there a go-to place for us aussies?

I do nearly everything here at home, but then again, not everyone has a machine and welding shop in their basement. Just figure out what you need for material and cut it and drill/ rivet it to fit. Dandy Dave!

don't know if I should show you this because some people don't like to see the cars changed to much but when I did my clutch not only where the linings worn out so where the metal tabs that get driven by the 3 flat bolts that drive the car 1925 buick im talking about so I fitted a new clutch I used a bigger clutch plate than what is shown in picture and the metal plate was recessed into the fly wheel to make it flush

A certain guy I know in old sunny California put a 1950's -60's clutch in a 1915 C-36 Buick. And that was back in the 60's. If you cannot see it and it works well, Who care's? Tis far better to have a 100 year old car out and driving where Joe and Joanne Public can see it, than to have it sit in the corner of a museum doing nothing, being viewed by few, and being static and lifeless. These cars really come to life when driven. Dandy Dave!

tonybuick,What car did you use the new clutch from,did the splines on the "new" clutch work without problem .A frien of mine did the same change in early 70s but I don`t know what clutch he used.

Leif in Sweden.

don't know if I should show you this because some people don't like to see the cars changed to much but when I did my clutch not only where the linings worn out so where the metal tabs that get driven by the 3 flat bolts that drive the car 1925 buick im talking about so I fitted a new clutch I used a bigger clutch plate than what is shown in picture and the metal plate was recessed into the fly wheel to make it flush[ATTACH=CONFIG]255029[/ATTACH]

very interested to hear about how you managed this and what impact it has on the feel/drivability

If I remember correctly, The old gentlemen in Sunny California used a Chevy clutch of 50's- 60's vintage. Your pressure plate looks like Chevy/ GM around that vintage. Dandy Dave!

FX/FJ Holden clutches might be close

hi to all

I did this about 15 years ago when I did the car up and have know done 17500 miles in the car I cant find the paper which has the clutch make on it but im pretty sure it was a Nissan truck clutch plate and pressure plate used the Nissan throw out bearing as well I could not find a clutch plate to fit the gearbox splines (bugger) so I went for a clutch plate with the biggest hole in it

and had the gear box shaft splined to fit new plate that's why I went to truck plate to keep the gearbox shaft as big as I could and strength the pressure plate almost comes to the edge of my steel plate about 15 to 20 mm in from the edge

the throw out bearing had a bigger centre hole in it than the buick bearing so I made a steel bush to reduce it down and it is fitted as if it where a buick bearing no changes where made to any linkages

the clutch is a dream to use and feels like a car clutch holds well and doesn't slip changes gear easily

the picture I posted is a mock up of what I did and the clutch is smaller than what I used there is also a large hole in the plate so you can bolt the fly wheel to the engine

if you could find a clutch plate to fit the buick gearbox shaft it would be even better I could go back but I would need to replace my gearbox main shaft everything else would un bolt but I don't think I ever would because it works so well and easy to use tony skevington new zealand

Thanks tonybuick.As I wrote earlier a friend of mine did the same in 1970s but he can`t remember what kind parts he used.If it ever will be a "new"restauration I will try this way too.

Leif in Sweden.

This is what I was greeted with when I removed the transmission.

Filthy greasy mess. Definitely over lubed throw-out. Other facings ready to depart.

Comparison between Standard (left) 8 facings. Master (right) 10 facings and 1/2" taller. Center plates had some heat discoloration.

Going down thru the pack and finding more facings ready to go.

Next installment of progress.

Terry Wiegand sent me 8 NOS facings 2 weeks ago (THANK YOU TERRY)! After much clean up and testing of surfaces all has come back together.

New facings on outer cover and first double sided plate. Press I made from a heavy gear puller. Last plate on flywheel side all rivet heads to flywheel.

Had ti take a cut to true up throw-out contact surface on my lathe. Original facings made by RUSCO. All double sided plates alternate rivets. Note set pattern.

Tested for warp using parallels. Second facing grease soaked and others ready to come apart. Drill press riveting set up.

Re-assembled stack.

Finally getting back to the clutch work. I would like to get all put back together before we leave for the Nationals. I had to take care of the transmission assessment and some general cleanup of the rear of the engine.

I removed and cleaned the throw-out bearing assembly and re-lubed.

Ring of grease around the bell housing. Manufacture. The Bearings Co. Lancaster PA. Cleaning up and checking universals and torque Ball.

Cleaned and lubed throw-out assembly. Worn and torn release lever boot. I took a break from degreasing to do a little sewing for a new boot.

Polished up torque ball and cover with new seal I had previously removed a handful of shredded clutch from the flywheel housing. Prior to the clutch's failure

packing. There was no gasket. No wonder it leaked it was getting more difficult to engage the starter. Now I know where the rest of the facing went. A lot of

so badly. picking with a sharpened hardwood stick to clean out!

More work ahead today.

Thanks mate, those pictures are really handy

Larry, Thanks for all those photo,s, and the comparison of standard and master clutches, you've certainly been up to your elbows in fun. I,m sure that well greased thow-out bearing doesn,t need replacing. The car should be a pleasure to drive with a new clutch.

Sorry about the previous post. I had captioned all the photos and when I uploaded the post the text placement was changed. In the meantime I cleaned up the rear of the engine and painted. Today I finally reinstalled the clutch. Now for the big job of getting the transmission and rear axle back in!

Larry

That one picture in post 36 looks like the gears are full of saw dust.