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1948 Chrysler Windsor questions


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That is the axle shaft. You are supposed to push it into the hub, or in other words pull the hub off the shaft. I am surprised your puller worked, it looks rather light for the job and most of them are really stuck on there.

Correct procedure is to take off the axle nut and put it on backward, flush with the end of the shaft. This protects the shaft and thread from damage. It also stops the hub from flying across the shop. Once the hub pops loose you take off the puller and the nut, and pull the hub off by hand.

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Wow...I feel like an idiot. I wasn't confident in my understanding of how the rear axle is built and I was fixated on expecting to hear "pop" and feel the hub coming loose. It turns out that the hubs were very free and even as I was hand tightening the nut on the hub puller, it was pulling the hub off. As I was staring at the axle and seeing it "push in," I didn't realize that that was just he hub coming off because I didn't expect it to be that easy. There was grease on the key and on the surfaces where the axle meets the hub. This grease allowed for a very smooth removal but not necessarily a jarring snap or immediate release.

Brakes: parts on order

Fluid drive drain and refill: going much better after adjusting the tubes I was using, I'm up to 36 oz with much less effort. As soon as I'm done with it and the draining/refilling the transmission I can further troubleshoot the shifting issue.

Thanks for all the help, again!

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Check the shaft and hub taper carefully for wear or scoring. They are never supposed to move, when you tighten the nut they wedge together and this is what holds them when you step on the gas.

They must be put together dry, no grease oil or other substance should be put on them. The nut must be very tight. Torque spec should be in your manual but I think it is over 200 ft pounds.

If yours were loose someone must have had them apart possibly to do a brake job. Check the brakes carefully and be sure the shoes are adjusted to the drums properly (major adjustment).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Alright, I'm stuck again. While working on the brakes, I replaced the cylinders and hoses on the front right wheel. Everything was fine until I tried putting it back together. I noticed that one of the anchor bolts did not go into the shoe like it was supposed to. The cam would not fit in and it was previously put together so that the cam of the anchor bolt was pressing against the shoe. What that did was press the metal of the shoe so much that it deformed and the perfect circle that should have been in the shoe. It was no longer a perfect circle; it had about half the circle pressed in. I used a "rescue bit" to grind it down so that the cam would fit in like it should. I only had to grind down about 1-3mm.

Now the drum won't fit on the brakes. I made sure that the anchor bolts allowed for maximum clearance as well as the toe cams on both sides. Both pistons are pushed in all the way and the shoes are seated onto the rods all the way.

I also replaced the pistons with the exact cylinders that I took off. The old cylinders had corrosion and build-up on top of the piston between the piston and the rubber cover. That tells me that while the brakes were together, the pistons did not need to move very far from their "non-pressurized" position to where they needed to be to engage the drum when they were "pressurized."

I'm starting to suspect that the shoes might be the wrong ones or perhaps the drum. The shoes are stamped with white paint with "44" under the pads facing the support plate.

Does anybody have any other ideas or insight? The drum needs another 1/4 inch of clearance to slide on. However, at that point, there is still no room for adjustments. I'm away from home right now but I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I'll also get my hands on some drum and shoe gauges tomorrow.

Thanks.

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Get the shoes arced to match the drums. Cannnot tell you where though. I do my own on an ammco shoe arc machine.

I have done it many many times because of the same problem and to make sure the shoe arc matches the drum for a good high firm pedal.

Also your piston pins might be the original long pins or mis matched pins and pistons that will cause your problem with the thicker type linings.

Bob

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I already have the factory manual, and I have the "mini-books" from the Master Technician series. I had to drive to 7 different places last week to get the hub measured to verify it was the correct size (apparently nobody around here measures those things anymore nor to autozone and napa carry the micrometer). I'm ready to do a major adjustment with the proper clearances for a double and single piston system (rear and front)...if only the hubs fit on.

Ultimately, I suspect that the cylinders are not the correct factory size or else the rods that I have are not the correct size. I ordered new a new set and will have to grind them down if they don't fit either. The cylinders I ordered are the same kind that I took off but like I said, the anchor bolt and shoes were installed incorrectly. They're installed incorrectly on the other side which I haven't touched yet. I'll take pictures and post later after I get this side finished. I think that the incorrect installation allowed enough clearance to put the hub on with the "suspected wrong dimensions" of the cylinders and rods.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Excellent video dave -especially the steel button to prevent damage to the end of the axle.

I have crushed the end of an axle with the nut on and with a H-duty blue point type puller. Tough drum -stuck on hard!

I too now have a special protector that I use to make sure the end of the axle shafts don't get damaged.

Thanks for posting!

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Excellent video dave -especially the steel button to prevent damage to the end of the axle.

I have crushed the end of an axle with the nut on and with a H-duty blue point type puller. Tough drum -stuck on hard!

I too now have a special protector that I use to make sure the end of the axle shafts don't get damaged.

Thanks for posting!

Thanks for the complement.

I'll probably redo it. Was nervous. 1st time attempting to do something like this.

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  • 1 month later...

It's taken me a long time to take and post these. The weather has been very uncooperative this winter. These pics are from the brakes on the front driver's side. The same issue caused me lots of problems and delays when doing the passenger side. As I mentioned in a previous post, the anchor bolts were not inserted all the way in on the bottom for both sides. I suspect it was left like that in order to get the hub back on otherwise it wouldn't fit with rods that were being used.

The first pic shows a gap between the anchor bolt head and "felt washer"/cylinder. The second picture shows how the bolt compressed the shoe so much that it deformed the hole. The third picture shows how the shoe was bent.

I took a hammer and flattened out the shoe over a piece of wood. I had to grind out the hole for the anchor bolt. I used a "rescue bit" but I think a different tool would have worked easier. Then I had to get shorter rods and all was well. Mostly. I still need to adjust them properly. Since the original tools are hard to come by, I think will get my hands on an old hub instead. I'll cut out a window in it and use spacers to measure the proper distance. Wish me luck.

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  • 6 months later...

Winter is over and I'm back in town so I've been working on the car for the past few weeks!   Lots of progress to share, I'll post some pictures soon.

 

A few questions for everyone:

 

Master cylinder replacement.  I see the bolts and tubes but how do I remove the brake pedal and clutch pedal from the master cylinder?  Is there a pin that goes through the master cylinder and the holes in the pedals in order for them to pivot?

 

Front brake line replacement.  I ordered a new stainless steel set of lines from In-Line tube.  My current tube connecting the two from brakes (front block to right hose) is something a previous owner made themselves and does not travel the original path.  The In-Line tubes have factory bends but it looks like its going to be a pain to run it though.  Does anybody have experience with this particular year or have pictures showing how its supposed to be run?

 

Hood latching system.  I think I have all the parts but they're not assembled.  Can somebody send/post a couple of pictures that show how the cable and springs, etc are supposed to be attached?

 

Wiring.  Does anybody have any idea how the "heater fan" switch is supposed to be hooked up?  Every wiring diagram I've found fails to include this switch.  Does it alter anything in the shop manual wiring diagram or is it just additional wires that are not listed?  Needless to say, I have a bit of a mess under the dash but was probably a result of somebody's good intentions. 

 

 

Thanks in advance for the help.  I have the car running reliable now.  The warm weather seems to let me start and drive it well (its shifting great), I'm hoping there are no problems with the inevitable New England Winter.

 

Christian

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I believe that you should remove the master cylinder and pedals as a unit.  The pedals are attached to a pin going through the MC.  There are U-shaped clips that keep the pedals from sliding off.  A trick to remove the clips that worked for me is to press the open end of a wrench (13/16" I believe) on the open end of the clip and then strike the closed end of the wrench to drive the clips off.  Otherwise they tend to just move around the groove in the pin.  At least on my Plymouth, there is a small floor panel near the pedals that can be removed to facilitate this procedure. (This small panel is in addition to the larger removable floor panel.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm in the middle of replacing the MC right now and ran into a snag. The pin connecting the pedals to the MC doesn't want to fit in the new MC.

I'm being told that the pin is supposed to be pressed in.

Can anybody confirm that that is true?

The old MC provided a little bit of space for it to slide in easy and wiggle just a little bit.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Bob, yes it's installed now.  I just used a bigger hammer....it was just barely not able to slide in.


However, I'm still really stuck on the brakes and could really, REALLY use advice/ideas.


I installed the MC and new brake lines but I'm getting a very spongy brake pedal.  The pedal goes down to the floor without applying pressure to the brakes.  I can pump it a few times and it will build up enough pressure towards the bottom of the pedal movement to stop the car.  I bled the brakes three times and was very thorough.  I adjusted the pedal linkage so that there was the appropriate amount of play.  I've looked for leaks at all connections and everything is dry.  I have not done a full "major brake adjustment" by the shop manual instructions yet but I did verify that there was minimal brake pad movement on all four wheels. Before installing the MC, I plugged both line holes to test the MC; it built up pressure immediately after the cylinder passed the small hole under the filler cap.  I also bench bled the MC:  I brought it to a local shop where I placed it level in a vice and circulated brake fluid through a few times until I didn't see any bubbles.  I then took the MC in my daily driver and drove back to where my car was parked and installed it.  I mentioned that step intentionally because although I kept the MC mostly level during transport, it did get moved during normal driving.  I wouldn't expect normal movements to negate the bleeding though.  I've made sure that the reservoir was at least half full during all of these steps.


Did I overlook something?  Did I not bleed the MC properly?  Did I not bleed the brakes enough?  Thanks for the help.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still sounds as if you have air in the line(s) somewhere. When bleeding the brakes I started at the rear and did the fronts last. Don't really think that it matters though. 

Are you making sure that you are not allowing the brake fluid to get too low and allowing air back into the lines before topping it off during the bleeding process?

Are you shutting the bleeder valves tight before allowing your helper lift their foot off the brake pedal?

Could one or more of your brake shoes be too far away from a brake drum?

Reaching on this one but... Is your brake pedal shaft cracked at the pivot point and flexing enough to not allow you to put sufficient pressure to the master cylinder?

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Was each shoe radius checked against it's brake drum? Even .010" clearance at the toe and heel will create a spongy pedal on over size drums even after doing a Miller or Ammco major adjustment.

That's why I get or arc the shoes to each drum.

Is the master cylinder a new one or a rebuilt one?  It too might be faulty.I

 Wish I was close... I'd get you going with in a couple hours. ;)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the ideas on this...I think I finally narrowed it down:  improper front brake adjustment.  

 

After talking with Dave/countrytraveler, I started second guessing my adjustments.  I was convinced that they were adjusted enough but I suspect I was mistaken.

 

Here's what I did:  This is a new MC but I was worried about lack of residual pressure being an issue so I replaced the check "valve" diaphragm just in case.  I put everything back together, spent a lot of time bleeding the MC to rule out air in the MC.  I verified residual pressure by pumping the pedal a couple of times and cracking a bleeder to see how much/fast fluid came out.  After all that, I still had the same issue.  I had the car on jacks and asked a friend to turn the wheels so I could see if the brakes were finally catching and to make sure it was even.  The rear tires caught towards the beginning of the pedal movement.  The front wheels however, required a quick, double-pump to catch.  That's when it hit me and was clear that the adjustment was probably the issue.  The old technician filmstrips mention that on release of the pedal, fluid can't refill the cylinder fast enough with fluid from the lines.  That's why there are holes built into the piston.  They allow fluid to flow between the piston and primary cup while fluid is filling back from the lines but a little bit slower.  The double pump that I was doing was not allowing all that fluid to flow back in.  Essentially, I needed to move more fluid than what was is in a single stroke.   

 

The size of the piston in the MC is not very different from the pistons in the wheel cylinders and the length of the stroke is not very long.  With 8 wheel pistons, the movement from those pistons quickly adds up to the movement of the MC piston which reduces efficiency of the stroke.

 

What I learned:  brake adjustments must be precise.  I've read the previous posts and the shop manual, etc but I thought it was close enough.

 

Here's my problem:  I can't drive the car to test the brakes because the gas tank sprung a leak near the bottom of the tank.  

 

Does anybody have experience with buying a new gas tank and can recommend a good source?  I see a few places online but would like to know if anybody was satisfied or not satisfied with what they got.  I've seen a few discussions about Renu, I'll price them tomorrow.

 

Thanks again for the advice, especially Dave, I don't think I would have connected all the dots if we hadn't talked.  Bob, I wish you were close too lol.  I'm hoping to report success after I get the gas tank issue fixed.

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So I went with a gas tank made by (for) Auto City Classic.  So far I'm very satisfied and I would recommend the tank for anybody looking.  I've gone back and forth several times with one of the guys there and he's been a great help.

 

I'd also like to offer a tip for anybody undergoing this job.  There is a small brass (?) ferrule that goes between the fuel tank and fuel line.  I wasn't expecting it to be there.  At some point in the process of taking down the tank, I found this small part on the ground.  I didn't know where it went but knew it came from the car.  I was initially thinking it was something unrelated that got stuck on the top of the gas tank from the sender unit hole in the trunk.  However, without this piece, if you put a standard tube fastener into the fuel tank, the threads will be too deep for the fastener and the tube won't sit.  Additionally, the original tank has a "female" seat/flare in order for this piece to seat.  I haven't been able to verify with the parts book (I looked and I don't see anything) but the book doesn't always list every piece.  Perhaps this was a common part but when I went into NAPA today looking for a fix, nobody had any idea about what I was talking about.  

 

My point is, make sure you look for it and don't lose it.  If you're getting a replacement tank you might have to deal with this.  The new tank I have has the correct seat/flare in the tank for this piece.  If I didn't have this piece in the old tank and didn't find it on the ground, I would have been very frustrated. 

 

The one thing I didn't mention about the replacement tank was that the threads for the gas sender unit were are not the same size as the original, but it comes with new screws and a new gasket. 

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Good advice on the ferrule. Mine fell out when I pulled my tank. Glad I saw it come out because it could have cause a lot of trouble not knowing it was supposed to be there.

What was the reason for replacing your tank? I looked back through your posts but didn't notice the reason for replacing it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I had to replace the tank because it started leaking one day.  I let it run empty intentionally, went to put 5 gallons in from a portable tank and at about 4 gallons I noticed a leak from the side, near the tubing.  Luckily I caught it time and didn't make too much of a mess.

 

 

UPDATE about my replacement tank:  I still like the tank from Auto City Classic but, as it turns out, the nut on the tank where the fuel line tube goes in was not deep enough when I put the ferrule in...meaning, there was not enough thread to install the tube with the ferrule in place.  This was extra frustrating because the replacement lines my NAPA sells only have standard length fasteners on the lines which were not deep enough to seat the tubing without the ferrule.  I suppose I could found a longer threaded piece to put on tubing and replace the lines but that was not something I wanted to do.  I talked with Auto City Classic again and they sent me piece to replace the ferrule, picture attached.  This worked out great, no leaks and I'm back on the road (until the next project).  I'm also still very satisfied with their customer service.

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I also am in need of that same fitting.

Could you post the name of the person you talked to so I could buy one?

Looked on the web site but could not find any Brass Fittings, just a 1941-48 Plymouth universal looking gas tank.

Thanks!

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  • 1 month later...

On a different note, does anybody have tips on how I can take out my gauges?  I'm trying to do some re-wiring and need to access the back of the cluster.  It looks like there is a plastic trim piece to the side (labeled 1 in the picture) and a trim piece over the cluster itself (labeled 2).  I've tried to take trim piece 1 off on the other side but it looks like it is snapped in place tightly; I was too worried about breaking it.  Also, if those trim pieces need to be removed, is it just 4 screws for the cluster to pull out towards the steering wheel? 

 

The pictures I attached are some random photos from ebay but they show what I'm talking about.

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Yes, four nuts from the back.

You will have to take the oil line and the speedo cable. after that there is still the wiring and a few light bulbs.

 

MAKE SURE YOU UNHOOK THE BATTERY AS THE AMP GAUGE WILL BE HOT !!!!

 

I too would be a player on the fitting, I was able to make something up but my conglomeration results in about an 1/8" passage which I was going to go with but if the fitting is available I would be inclined to redo the thing.

Edited by JACK M (see edit history)
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That special extended length gas tank fitting is available from city classic about $12.00. I just had to get one a month ago.

 

As mentioned four 3/8" nuts hold the cluster to the back side of the dash. Lots of wires and other pieces will need to be removed or  moved out of the way as already mentioned. Not a fun job. Moving/bending the original wiring will cause some of it to break the cloth insulation as it is old and brittle..

 

Removing the left starter button dash plastic is tough with the dash in the car...four strong clips hold it in place and the plastic studs can break if you try to remove them improperly.

The cluster surround plastic can  be removed once the cluster is out. The cluster plastic surround trim has small double bent over tabs that hold it in place. Don't mess with either piece of plastic if not necessary!

 Some pics of jobs...

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Those are great pics....thanks.

 

I'm picking apart a '46 at a junkyard and have taken most everything out of the dash at this point.  There are still a couple of extra switches and wiper assembly that I'm going to grab.  I haven't figured out how to take out the dash yet...I have a feeling I'm making this job harder than it needs to be.  My goal is put my wires were they belong, taking apart the junkyard car is teaching me were they go and giving me spare parts.  Should/can I take out the dash with everything still installed?  I know I'd have to disconnect at least the oil pressure line, speedo line, and temp gauge line.

 

About the fuel line part, I can see if I can take out that fitting that goes in between the fuel tank and fuel line from the junkyard.  It wouldn't be the converter/extended length gas tank fitting that Auto City Classic carries.  If anybody needs it just let me know and I'll check next time I go back there (which will probably be soon).

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To get the dash out you will have to take the windshield surround off and there are screws under it that hold the dash along the top.

Also there are two bolts, one on each side underneath..

You will also need to address the vent lever mechanism. You can access two screws straight up under the dash in the middle, but I seem to remember that there is more to it than that. Its been awhile.

If you are trying to save the plastic it is much easier to get that after you get the dash assembly out.

 

If its convenient to get to that tank fitting let me know. I read above that a new one is about 12 bucks, plus shipping I would presume. I am thinking that it would probably have to be an extended fitting at least similar to what is shown above.

The tank is fitted with a very deep fitting and it needs this adapter to get a regular flare fitting in there.

One would take the line off (or cut it), then take the fitting from the tank.

 

Have fun !!

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  • 1 month later...

Does anybody know what and where the "transmission solenoid" is for this car?  The owner's manual says its supposed to have a 30 amp fuse and calls it a "transmission solenoid."   On the wiring diagram from the shop manual, I see something called a "transmission relay."  Is this the same thing as the "transmission solenoid?"  I'm think they're the same thing but it would be nice to have confirmation.  

 

I attached some pictures which show why I have a little bit of confusion.  The object labeled "#1" is on the firewall and I'm not sure if its even supposed to be in the car?  I have no idea what it is or what it might do.  Its not hooked up, it has an old 20 amp fuse in it, I don't see this part on the 1946 Windsor that I'm taking apart at the junkyard, and my car seems to run and shift fine without it being hooked up.  Also, the bracket holding in place is just one screw and part of the bracket for the driver's side heater.

 

The object labeled "#2" in the pictures posted is what I suspect to be the "transmission relay" and seems to be hooked up but with possibly some extra wires.  It has an old 30 amp fuse in the fuse holder (disregard the "?" in the picture).

 

Should/can I remove "#1" if it doesn't belong?

 

 

 

Other news:  I still need to go to the junkyard and get that fuel line ferrule and offer it up.  I have the headlights, parking lights, taillights, stop light, and instrument lights working finally.  I went out for a drive after dark for the first time a few nights ago and it was great! 

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  • 2 months later...

I just wanted to give an update to a few things:

 

Correction to previous posts here and a separate post about about flasher wiring:  The car I was taking apart in a junk was a 1948, not a 1946.  I confirmed that my wire providing power to the flasher was burnt from the flasher to somewhere in the harness.  I'll post pictures when I take it apart.  Big thanks to the guys at RI Wiring for letting me come by to learn and look at their diagrams.

 

I just made a 3000 mile drive from RI to the Seattle area...no problems on the drive at all.  Its time to get a garage with the new house and to get serious about restoration.

 

The small fuel line ferrule from the car I was taking apart is a bit too tough for me to get to.  I'd have to lift and move the entire car which isn't really possible and even then, might not be safe.  I would have liked to been able to offer it but its too much for me to get to.

 

Here are a few pics from the drive.

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What a fun drive. And with no problems, that's way cool.

I purchased the referenced fuel fitting and am on the main tank now.

Had a few minor glitches when first got it to run and only has about 40 miles on it now but the last run was 30 miles with no problems.

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  • 1 year later...

Hello again everyone.  Its been a while but I thought I'd share and ask a couple of things.

 

First off, I posted some pics of an original oil filter with a machinist rule in case anybody is interested.  I was trying to verify the correct size in order to figure out what brand filter to buy for a replacement.  I bought two replacement filters from two different sources that said they're exact size replacements.  However, each of them were different sizes.  The original size looks to me to be 8 inches high, 2 5/8 inch wide, and the center hole about 1 inch.  I think the height is most important for this application. 

 

Can anybody recommend a brand and brand number that is a good fit?

 

I've also not been able to determine what to get for a gasket for the top of the oil filter.   Each of the replacements that came with the filters I bought were the wrong size.  Does anybody have a brand/part number for that too?

 

Also, I know this isn't the best place to post this but a guy is selling a 1947 Windsor on eBay that I saw in person.  The car is great and he has almost everything that isn't attached on the car including extra trim rings and brand new moulding for the rockers that I wish he'd let me buy lol.  Its super original and hasn't been started in a few years.   Garage kept its entire life by the looks of it.  If I wasn't moving again I'm pretty sure I would buy it.  Here's the link if anybody is interested (https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/cto/d/1947-chrysler-windsor/6571583084.html).  I also took about 40 photos while I was checking it out.

 

Finally, I've done a lot more research on the car and learned a lot about restoration.  I'm starting to get really serious now and realize that I need to get the floor pans replaced.  I have a source for the pans but I still need the "cross members" that go under and connect to the body and the body mounts.  If there is a source for those, please let me know.  I would love to save a few bucks and not pay somebody to build them.  

 

Is anybody in the Jacksonville, FL area?  That's where I'm moving to next.  I'm not sure if I'm going to take the car yet or not.

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Christian, sorry I can't help on your filter question.

 

But I did go back and look thru the other three pages of this thread. The 3000 mile trip sounds great, I bet it was a fun time. And no issues, even better!  Of course, that's what these big Chryslers were made for. It's a good looking car, hope to see more updates.

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r1lark, it was fun and educational.  It was a bit more work than I was expecting.  I was used to driving a lot at night and going faster but it rained a lot and with 6V taillights I was worried one of those big trucks wasn't going to see me until it was too late.  I drove much slower because I didn't want to push the car.  I'd have more fun now that I know what to expect!

 

Joe, each replacement filter that I bought has a couple of those o-rings but they don't fit the canister.  Ideally, I'd like to find a reliable source for filters that I know fit.

 

I forgot to mention that I bought an original parts book because I was tired of using the poor copy that was given to me when I bought the car.  The parts book I had was a copy that Bishko make although I called to ask if they had a better copy and they don't have the one from 1949 even though I have the copy of the receipt from them to the last owner.  Regardless, I'm going through taking photos with my phone and turning them into pdfs using an app.  Its coming out great. I'm wondering if anybody would be interested in getting a better copy.  Maybe I'm the only one that didn't previously have a good copy lol.  

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