1940 56S Motor update

I'll put a question up front so it will be seen:

Oil pan bolts - how do you get to the 6 bolts that are above the crossmember? Pull the gen and fuel pump and go to it from above with a box wrench?

So, finally the weather finally improved enough to move into major work. The dash is essentially done and I will do a thread on it soon, but I wanted to get going asap. So I pulled the carb, drained the coolant, pulled the rocker arm off along with the pushrods as well as pulling the pushrod cover. The person or persons who did previous work on this car (I have taken to calling him/them the Idjit) used plenty of gray RTV glue so it was a bit of a struggle but not as bad as the valve cover last year.

I had a bit of a prob with the exhaust pipe bolts but got them off (see here). The Idjit also had gooped on plenty of red RTV on the intake and exhaust manifold so I anticipated a struggle there as well but with the weight I was able to loosen and de-schlorp it and, with the help of a friend, remove it. As you can see from the photos, there are old repairs as well as an unrepaired crack (see 8th photo), although it does not appear to be leaking exhaust. Notice how someone cut off the heads of the studs holding on the valve body to the manifold. :mad: Niiiice! Also, the bypass valve is about 75% closed.

The Idjit used some kind of adhesive on the head gasket so that was a chore but with 2 of us on a breaker bar we got the head loose. Man, I had forgotten how bloody heavy these things are! We got it out and I did a liquid test on the valves. All of the valves passed but most of the guides leaked. So we hauled it up to Rockville Ring and Bearing (last machine shop in Rockville) and he is looking at it now. He said he can plane the manifolds so I will take those up tomorrow. Any further decision of those will wait until he looks at them.

So the block cylinders look OK, there definitely is evidence that the ridge was removed. That means my earlier question (see here) has been answered, that it appears that valve and ring work was done. Whether it was done right is still up for grabs. Cylinder bore looks to be 3.093 to 3.095 or so, will do a better check this week. Since I inflamed my back again I am taking it easy for the next few days but am close to getting the pan pulled and looking at a piston and ring assy, hopefully before the end of the week.

Lots of pics, enjoy!

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

You should be able to get the pan bolts out with a 3/8" drive socket from the bottom. Though you may need a universal on the extension.

My experience with dropping the pan, for it's annual cleaning and oil pump service, showed me that there are holes enough to get a socket up there thru the frame, and along side the lower "A" arms.

How is your oil pressure hot and cold ? I sanded the bottom plate on the pump and it made a world of difference. 60# at cold startup and 40 cruzin hot.........

First time in there we found the oil pick up float dislodged and sitting on the bottom in about 1.5" of grey mud. That's after we drove her 120 miles home from Denver !!!!

Good luck with your rebuild.............

Mike in Colorado

PS; Looks like somebody has been welding on your manifold with some nickel rod.

Update from today: word is that the head is good, all valves good, guides good, he just had to lap a bit. So it appears the valve job was done prior to me getting the car. The bad news is the manifold - he said to replace if possible, but he recommended a guy in Spencerville who welds on this old iron and he might be able to clean it up. Am taking to him tomorrow, meanwhile I put up a want ad on the buy/sell forum to see if there are any available manifolds.

Mike - I will take another look tomorrow but I sure didn't see any places to put up a socket from the bottom - maybe my eyes are going along with the rest of me! And my oil pressure is adequate but not great - about 35 at cold, about 10 at hot idle. Did you grind on the pump body itself to reduce clearance from flange to gears?

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

No, do not grind the cast iron body of the pump. Just emory down the cast aluminum bottom cover plate with 120 grit till the "leaky" pattern around the edge is gone.

There is a picture of the offending plate in my gallery. I just put a THIN coat of Permatex #2 around the edge and screwed her up tight.

Oh, and don't forget to "flatten" your pan before assembly. There is a picture of that also in my gallery. Up on wood blocks and check with a straight edge. Hammer down the pan bolt bosses. Saves a lot of RTV....

Mike in Colorado

Mike:

Where is your gallery? Could not find it thru your profile.

Cheers, Dave

Where is your gallery? Could not find it thru your profile.

http://forums.aaca.org/members/flyer15015/ On the left ---> album

http://forums.aaca.org/members/flyer15015/albums/my-album/

Thanks!

I dunno, Mike. I took another look and I sure could not see any way of getting the front pan bolts off from below. Lo0oks like a gen and fuel pump pull and working them out with a box wrench. Or am I missing something? Pics attached. Maybe the 248 fits in there a little differently from your bad-boy 320?

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

I think you are right. The front two or three that I can see, PLUS there must be a couple in the very front around the damper pulley to hold the front seal.

Grant in NZ should be your next contact, or maybe Danny in Aus. Though the have '39's they must be similar. Shoot them a PM...........

My frame is much different (darn Buick engineers), and I have no problem getting at even the bolts up front.

I have a hunch you will have to lift the block off the front mounts a bit to get the bolts out, and THEN you will need space to let the pan drop below the counter weights or crank throws to pull it back.

There may be a secret about how to "dial" the crank to get the most space.

We need someone with this exact year / model, who's done this to chime in here.

Mike in Colorado

Dave, Mike told me about your predicament. I'll have a look at some pics...

Hold the line caller.......

Looks like all that's stopping you is a build up of oil and grease! At least that's how it looks when comparing pics. I hope these shots help Dave.

Cheers

Grant

Grant:

My fenders are still on, but it looks like your crossmember is the same. I spoke with Greg Johnson in MN earlier today, and he said it can be done but it's not easy. Not much clearance between the pan bottom and crossmember. Once you got the bolts out, could you maneuver the pan out without lifting the block off of the mounts?

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

I've met Greg several times and have purchased several parts from him. A very nice and knowledgeable fellow. Friend of Dave T's.

Did you ask him about "dialing" the crank or lifting the front of the block to wiggle the pan out ?

My concern is not getting it out, but putting it back up without messing up the gasket or the RTV you have so carefully smeared on the bottom of the block.

Mike in Colorado

A few pieces of news. Greg J has a manifold and I should have it in a couple of weeks. My machine shop will set it up once I get it.

Second, I went back and did a very careful mike of the cylinders. They range from 3.092" to 3.096" on the parallel to the crank. Delta going deeper in the cylinder (about 1/2 way down) is maybe 0.001". I also checked perp to the crank and no more than 0.001" difference. So no oversize pistons needed, also rings will be standard if I need them.

Last, I got the pan out!!! Nastiest. Job. Ever. Going in from above was a no-go, so we put it up and I tried from below. Lo and behold, my frame crossmember has 4 nicely placed holes lining up with the 4 bolts. Maybe this was an "improvement" done later since the frame drawings I have seen for 1940 do not show them. Anyhow, got the 4 out, then had to struggle a bit with the next 2 on each side but was able to get on them from below and behind. After lots of !@#%!^$^!@!@#$&^*@ I got them and, after getting the remainder off (finally went to the air ratchet) the pan literally dropped on me. I was able to maneuver it out and it had about an inch of sludge on the bottom. Also tons of garm and goo on the pan and the bolts. I really find it hard to believe that someone had the pan off anytime in the last few years. Anyhow, I came out covered head to foot in oil and grease but we got it! Also removed the oil pump and I will take a look. More to come, including pix.

Cheers, Dave

Congrat's Dave on a job well done !!!!

Did you notice the position of the crank when you pulled the pan off ? You may be able to "dial" it a bit to provide more clearance for the "install", as you will have a fragile gasket and a bit of RTV to keep aligned.

Will you be ridge cutting the cylinders, or just a hone job to re-establish the cross hatch ?

Oil pump.... Pull the bottom die cast plate, where the pick up tube is attached, and check the perimeter for the leak pattern. I emoried mine w/120 grit on a FLAT surface and got "mucho" oil pressure.....

Your lucky, as I found my oil pick up float laying in the bottom of the pan, and buried under the usual 1-2 inches of grey mud.

Don't forget to "flatten" your pan after cleaning. Also I cleaned out the block threads with a tap and lots of brake cleaner, and I used "never seize" on the new pan bolts.

Just some notes from a fellow traveler.

Mike in Colorado

Thanks Mike! I am going out of town for a few days at the end of the week but will go over the oil pump once we get back. Did you "stretch" the spring on the regulator as well?

The secret for the pan pull is to have the counterweights for cyls 1 and 2 in mid position, so turn the crank until both pistons are in equal position vertically (mid-cylinder).

If the Idjit before me did not do the rings, then there is very little ridge, just enough to catch a fingernail. My rabbi, Doug at Rockville Ring and Bearing, said that the pistons should slide over that no problem. I have to take a closer look at the cylinders, will use my good camera and post some pics. May not get back to it until I return next week.

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

Yup, I stretched the spring from 2 3/4" to 3 1/4". Should have gone to 3.5". I did put a 3/8" spacer behind the spring. Should have just done that...... 60# at cold start - 40# at hot cruzin.

I knew there was a crank position that would make it easier, especially for the reinstall.

If I had mine down that far, I really would give her a light "hone" job, just to do some cross hatching, But there are others here in the Buick community that should weigh in here. I just don't like ridges in anything but my chips. Cast iron rings are very fragile...............

Mike in Colorado

Update: About a week ago I pulled out the piston in #7. Broken ring. Also the gap putting the other compression ring in the cyl was over 0.060"!! So it's now very evident that the Idjit did not do the rings even though he swore up and down he did. And I have second channeled ring instead of the flex ring in the 4th groove. I assume this means that no one had done the rings at least since about 1948, and I may be the first one in there since initial assembly. So I am doing the rings now. Doing a light hone and checking bearing clearances as I go. I have a question on the bearings that I will put into a separate thread. So far cyls 7, 5, and 4 are finished. Hope to be done by the end of the weekend.

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

Might I suggest that you check that ridge at the top of the bore real closely.

I've pulled a few engines down that had "just been re-ringed" only to find that the top ring had broken and scored the crap out of the bore because the ridge had not been removed.

Danny

Danny:

It's barely there - you can feel it but it hardly catches your fingernail. And so far all of the pistons are coming out OK. I am checking end clearance on the topmost part of the cyl since the diameter there will be the least and so far I have abt 0.0013", so will be a bit more further down the cyl. And the reinsertion has been fine as well, am oiling up the compressor and cyl walls so they are going in with a few taps of a wooden dowel.

Cheers, Dave

Danny:

OK, I went back and looked at the ridge more closely. On cyls 1 and 2, which I have not done yet, it is a little bit more noticeable. So I miked it out - on the rearmost cyls, the difference in diameter between just above and below the ridge is abt 0.002" or 0.003". The front cyls appear to be greater, maybe 0.005" or 0.006". How much is too much? I sure don't want to break the new rings.

Cheers, Dave

If it was my engine, no way I would NOT ream the ridges. Simple operation. You can probably rent the ridge reamer at a parts store.

Ben

The top ring land on the pistons MUST be rebuilt on any rering job. A special tool (Manualathe?) cuts the worn old groove over width and a steel spacer somewhat like a thin snap ring is installed in the groove above the new ring. The probability of ring breakage and a lot more damage is almost certain if this step is skipped. The ridge, top piston ring, and the ring land wear together as an assembly. A new ring upsets this normal wear related clearance and introduces interference between it and the ridge which can never really be entirely removed. The oversize ring land and spacer effectively moves the new ring down the piston a tiny bit so it clears the ridge and eliminates interference. Simple, important and effective! Bob H, retired master engine builder

Dave,

Given you have it apart, I wouldn't leave that ridge unattended. I have only ever removed the ridge and the honed/deglazed it.

I haven't had any problems BUT, having said that, I have only done it 4 times and would not go against the advice of a master engine builder.

Why not do both and be sure you have eliminated the potential for disaster down the road.

These tools can usually be hired out for the weekend for not a lot of dollars.

Just check that the spacer is available for, or comes with, the set of rings you buy.

Danny

Leaving the ridge would be very risky and bad practice.

OK so today I got an OEM reamer and set to work. Did 4 cyls so far. Got the ridge down to appx 0.001" or none, afraid to be too aggressive for fear of damaging the cyl walls. Also, it seems difficult to get the reamer perfectly centered, it has a "bias" it seems where it is scraping one part but not another. I just turned and reset a few times and was able to get it all, just takes a bit longer. Hope to finish up the reaming and ring replacement tomorrow on all cyls.

Cheers, Dave

Update: All cyls complete, some more work to do on oil pump and pan and will start reassembly later this coming week. Found more broken rings as well so it's a good thing I did this.

Cheers, Dave

My oil pump was missing the screen. I took a look at what it is supposed to look like (first pic from another thread) and kind of put together something using some copper wire put together as a frame and some metal window screen (that actually came out of another engine, my machinist had it). I even duplicated the center hole in case of the screen getting plugged. Do you all think this will work or shoulkd I just leave it out as it's been for the last few decades?

Cheers, Dave

The ideal My answer

Looks good to me

Update:

Oil pump and pan back on, did "drill test" and confirmed good oil flow out of the line going to the filter and good pressure - about 20 lbs with the drill briefly turning abt 250 rpm (that's 500 engine rpm equivalent). Tomorrow it comes off of the stands and the cylinder head and manifold go back on if I can get some help!

Cheers, Dave

Dave,

Did you take pic's of the offending oil pump bottom plate for those who follow to refer to ? Hope your "leak pattern" was not as bad as mine (see my gallery).

How are your Colorado plans coming ? I'm on the route to Montrose.

Just finished up our "valve cover derby" track for the July 5th B.V. car show. 44" tall and 32 feet long with 2 eighteen inch wide lanes. Pinewood derby for grown up's.

Mike in colorado

It's off the stands and the cyl head and manifold are on! I hope to get most of the rest of it back together tomorrow, with the Big Start on Friday.

Mike: I am afraid I did not do any pix of the pump besides the ones I posted of the pickup, my bad. But the bottom plate looked pretty close to yours. We are still on track on travel, I will give you a call on the 7th of July as we get close.

Cheers, Dave

Update: Thursday and Friday I put back the fuel pump, battery, oil filter assy, rocker arm assy, and carb back on, as well as all lines, hose connections, and reinstalled my heater and filled up with coolant. All went well but when I did a fuel pressure test late yesterday I had a massive fuel leak at the pump. I could not reliably get a wrench on the bowl capscrew so I ended up re-removing the oil filter and fuel pump. Could see nothing wrong but the bowl capscrew had come a bit loose. Tightened it up and did a fit check with the elec pump energized, no leaks. In my haste to get the fuel pump back on before dark I dropped the bolts and of course they went down the crossmember and disappeared from view! That'll teach me to stuff a rag in that opening next time.

So this morning I had to put the car back up on jack stands so I could get under there and locate the bolts. Then the pump decided to give me a devil of a time going back on, as well as one of the oil filter pressure fittings. Finally got it all back together and did a final pressure test. Then...

Turned it over at 5:05 pm EDT. Caught on the first try!! RUNNING!!!!! A little smoke as the oil in the cylinders burned off, then it settled down. Let it warm up, all seemed good. A few intermittant misses here and there, but I readjusted the idle mixtures and now it PURRS!!! Rock steady vacuum at 20 inches. A few issues - the valves need tightening up after the machine shop work (lash now at 0.020" or more), the oil pressure still seems low (will put on a better gauge tomorrow and get real numbers) and it seems to be running a bit hotter than before (will double check with laser reader tomorrow).

But, overall, YAAAAAY!!! You can see it run here

Temp is OK, gauge reads a bit higher than actual. Oil pressure cold: 20 lbs idle, 35 to 40 lbs 1500 rpm Oil pressure hot: 12 to 15 lbs idle, barely 30 at 1500 rpm. I may have to go back to 20W-50 (have 10W-40 in it now). Drove it a bit, speedometer does not work but odometer now works fine - the exact opposite of where I started! Will have to pull speedo again to find out what is wrong - sigh. Probably in the Fall. I did a lot of work on it and it tested out fine on the bench. Hopefully lash the valves tomorrow and call it ready for the mechanic who'll do the clutch and rear end.

Cheers, Dave

Final update: Lashed the valves, runs quiet now. Rechecked timing - was abt at 20 degrees, reset to 4. Idles very nicely. I finished the elecvtrical work - got the second relay installed and now have the fog lights working. Also the heater fan. No change in oil pressure. I was a little concerned as it seems I have less flow to the rocker arm than previously. I do not have the filter screen in the cyl head. I pulled the little pipe and it appears to be abt a cup of oil in abt 3 mins at 1000 rpm. I think I had a cup in 1 minute at 500 rpm previously, so it may be a clogged filter or something. Anyhow, I will have Bill in Berryville take a look while he has the car.

Speaking of that - the car went over to Berryville yesterday. Pix below. So hopefully in a couple of months I will be fully on the road. Thanks to all who helped me out on this thread, I will close it out now since it's gotten a bit long.

Cheers, Dave

I have always been surprised at how little oil actually gets up to the rockers on the Buicks. Both my '38s have, what seems to be, very low flow there, but if you check the deadhead pressure it matches engine oil pressure. I decided that the low flow is just line restrictions.

Must be OK, Buicks do not have a history of rocker problems.