Torque tube help please.

Good Morning All,

I have a vibration in my drive train that gets downright scary above 45mph! It could be the differential but the torque tube sounds like the place to start as it appears to be throwing some kind of lubricant at both ends (see pics). I would like to have as many of the replacement parts on hand before I pull it apart so that I don't have a lot of down time.

I've never had an automobile with a torque tube. I don't have a clue what I will find inside. What parts would you recommend buying before tackling this issue?

ricosan

What car are you working on? There should be a ball and trunion joint at each end that take the place of the U joints on an open driveline car. Those would be my first suspects. Also check the driveshaft itself for straightness.

It's a 1932 Marmon. You can see all of the lubricant that it's slinging. I'm hoping that I can identify the parts before dismantling.

ricosan

Hi Ricosan

You do not have a torque tube. What you do have are two oil filled Spicer universal joints. They are the same as the ones on my 27 Studebaker. They are unique for two reasons: they run in oil, not grease and they do not have any needle bearings in them. The u-joint cross runs directly metal on metal with the u-joint cups. Because of this, if they are allowed to run dry they wear rapidly. The metal covers which are bolted ro the transmission and pinion flanges have filler plugs in them and the smaller covers at the driveshaft end of the u-joint covers have a felt seal for oil retention and a spring which keeps the small cover tight against the u-joint cover. If the felt wears out they will sling oil. To fill them, turn the drive shaft to approximately the 4 or 8 o'clock position, remove the plug and fill with a heavy oil until it runs out and replace the plug.

Terry

Hey Terry,

I learn something new every day! Thanks for the info. I had heard that Studebaker and Marmon shared some parts. I'm not sure exactly where the filler plugs are located. Can you see them in the photographs? Looks like I definately need the felt seals. Do you have to remove the axle in order to get to the seals and pinion flanges? What type of oil do you fill the tube with?

ricosan

ricosan

While you're at it have the driveshaft balanced and checked for straightness.

I can't see them in the pictures, but the plugs in the u-joint covers should be obvious. Mine are brass and have a screwdriver slot in them. The driveshaft has to come out to replace the felt seals in the u-joint covers because the u-joints need to be disassembled to get the covers off. As for the oil needed, Studebaker was annoyingly vague, simply advising the use of a "heavy oil".

Terry

Terry,

I'm having a hard time locating the plug. Is the plug in a fixed position on top or does it rotate with the shaft? Can the shaft be removed without loosening the axle and moving it back?

Does your drive shaft look like the same model as mine?

ricosan

Terry,

I can feel a plug in the center on top of the shaft. It feels like it has a slot in it. I don't know how to access it from above as it's covered by a metal housing plastered with lubricant that you see in the pictures. Do you use a special device to get oil into the tube?

ricosan

Is this it?

Hi Ricosan

It might be possible that that is it. The plug on mine is in the cover near the circle of bolts on the left in post #10. I don't have anything on the slip yoke like yours does. I guess there is one way to find out! Take the plug out and see if there is oil there. To remove the driveshaft, take out the 6 bolts securing it to the rear axle pinion flange and push the driveshaft forward - the slip yoke will allow this, then remove the six bolts securing the driveshaft to the transmission flange to take it out. Any oil in the u-joint housings will come out when you do this.

Terry

Thanks for the info Terry,

Sounds like I could do it myself. Is removing and rebuilding this drive shaft/tube a job that a person with average mechanical skill could tackle? Do you know of a source that carries the parts needed for this type of drive line?

ricosan

It isn't difficult to do. Only basic tools are required. I can't help as far as a parts source, though. Egge Machinery might possibly be a source.

Terry

Before you start taking it apart, you might get the rear end up on jack stands and rotate the drive shaft by hand to see if there is significant runout anywhere. Try to jiggle things. That might point out an obvious problem.

If you are adventurous you might even start the car and run it in gear to see if anything is running out. If you do, be sure the front wheels are safely blocked.

Before you start taking it apart, you might get the rear end up on jack stands and rotate the drive shaft by hand to see if there is significant runout anywhere. Try to jiggle things. That might point out an obvious problem.

If you are adventurous you might even start the car and run it in gear to see if anything is running out. If you do, be sure the front wheels are safely blocked.

This is good advice. As you rotate the driveshaft push up on it. A little motion is ok, but anything beyond that would indicate a worn u-joint and they are the number one suspect when there is a noticeable driveline vibration. What restorer32 says in post #6 is also very good advice. If you don't feel comfortable with working on the driveshaft, a driveline shop can do it but you would probably need to supply the u-joints as they are rather unique.

PS Sometimes it pays to read the bible! I got out my 1927 Studebaker serice manual. In the bus/truck service section it shows a grease fitting in the place where the plug is in your post #10. There is nothing there on the driveshaft in my car. I'm still a bit mystified as to why there doesn't appear to be a plug in the u-joint dust cover.

Terry

We have our drive shafts balanced at a truck repair facility. They can also supply and weld in a new tube if necessary. Most recently they did a drive shaft from a '59 Cadillac for us.

Thanks for all the help help, advice and education Guys,

I've got a couple of emails out to some Spicer u-joint jobbers. I'm hoping someone in the Spicer world will recognize it or push me in the right direction. I'll keep you all posted as things progress.

ricosan

You could also try Mechanics (brand name) u-joints

Terry

ANY vibration at speed should point you to the tires and wheels FIRST. Eliminate the most problem-prone items first.

Put the car's rear axle on jack stands. Securely block the front wheels. If the brakes are not dragging, you will be able to rotate each rear wheel by hand, and watch the tread, the sidewalls, the wheel's rim for significant runout. [the tire/wheel does not run true, it wobbles]

Old tires get flat spots, sometimes the flat spots work out with driving, sometimes they don't.

Old tires and wheels need balancing just like modern wheels and tire.

IF the tires and wheels run true, then get under the car, and push up and down, or sideways on each end of the driveshaft, if you see or feel a clunk/clunk, then probably the U-joint is worn.. you will need to find a machinist to rebuild the U-joint. I don't think any new or replacement joints are available. This type of U-joint was last used around the time your car was built.. later U-joints are much like modern ones.

Does the vibration go away when you let off the throttle? If so, this is often a clue that the vibration IS a Ujoint. If not? probably a bent wheel, bad tire, or bend driveshaft. Does the driveshaft run straight? you can test this by jacking up one rear wheel, block the other wheels, and turn the one free wheel and watch the driveshaft turn [trans in neutral].

I would NOT assume the problem is in the driveshaft's U-joints until all wheel and tires are checked out.

If the brakes drag too much, or you can't see any runout, then start the engine, put the trans in high or direct or 3rd, whatever you wish to call top gear, let the engine idle, and watch the wheels and tires, and look underneath and watch the driveshaft..

You will likely find something out of round or bent..

BUT it could be a tire tossed a wheel weight, and is severely out of balance.

Greg L

It could even be the same problem I discovered in 1968 or so while working in Dad's tire shop. Guy came in complaining of a wobble in the rear end. Tried rebalancing the tire but it was waaaay out of balance. Dismounted the tire and found a 14" Crescent wrench between the tire and the tube.

It could even be the same problem I discovered in 1968 or so while working in Dad's tire shop. Guy came in complaining of a wobble in the rear end. Tried rebalancing the tire but it was waaaay out of balance. Dismounted the tire and found a 14" Crescent wrench between the tire and the tube.

Thats a good one. And a free wrench to boot.

I jacked the car up this morning and put jack stands under the rear axle. I started the car and put it in gear. There is little up & down motion and about 1/4" wobble from side to side on the drivers side wheel and about 1/8" on the passenger side.

I crawled under the car and watched the drive shaft while the car idled in 2nd gear. It appears to run absolutely straight with no wobble. I stopped the engine and pushed on the drive shaft side to side and up and down on both ends. I do get a clunk but I see hardly any movement. I get the same movement and clunk sound on both ends.

I also had the oil in the rear end changed this morning. I haven't had a chance to drive it at speed to see if it made any difference.

ricosan

I can't see from the avitar photo if this car has wire wheels, wood spoked or ?? wheels, if you can, I'd check the front wheels and tires, and see if they run true.. then check the spare wheels and tires.. put a straight set on the rear and see if it eliminates the vibrations.

If you had a tire on your modern car with that much runout and out of round, you'd really know about it..

How old are the tires and tubes on the car?? Maybe it's time to put some new shoes and socks on the car??

GLong

Hey Greg,

It has wire wheels. The tires (4) are new radials. I don't recall if the noise stops when I release the gas. If the rain holds off this weekend I'll do that test as well.

I hear a metalic scrunching kind of sound when I get above 35 mph and continues to become more noticeable as speed increases.

ricosan

HI Ricosan. That metallic scrunching noise is 99% likely a wheel bearing. When you had the car up on jackstands, and ran it, did you hear a bit of grinding, or similar noise?? If not, do the test again, with a bit higher engine speed, you should hear the noise if it's a rear wheel or differential bearing.

You can use a length of wood dowel, or a yard stick as a stethescope, put one end on the rear axle behind the brake backing plate, usually there is a space there between the backing plate and the spring that you can use to listen to the outer axle bearings.. put one end of the stick on the axle, one to your ear. don't let the stick touch any other part of the car.. you will hear a bad bearing very clearly..

If neither outer axle bearing sounds bad, then listen to the differential where the driveshaft enters the front, there are at least two pinion bearings on that input shaft, and two bearings where the differential has the axles routed out to the wheels..

If none of these locations have a grinding/scrunching noise. Then set the rear end down and jack up the front and spin the front wheels and listen for your noise..

Let us know what you discover.

Greg L

That's it! When I put the car on jack stands and ran the car in gear I thought I heard a faint rumbling noise coming from the rear drivers side hub. I won't have time to work on the car today but tomorrow I'll put in on jack stands and try the wood dowel trick.

ricosan

I would NOT run radial tires on that car. The 32 drop center wheels can't take the flexing. Your asking for a wheel to come apart. I just took a set off a customers car. Ed

Greg, I managed to get the car up on jack stands and I stuck the dowel to the axle as near to the hub as I could. Both sides were noisy but the driver side rear was the loudest. It has a slight rumble to it also. I'm not real sure about the passenger side as the exhaust comes out that side and is loud. I ordered bearings and seals from George at Olcar.

Ed, I yi yi! Say it ain't so. This is the first time I've heard of this. I was so pleased when I purchased the car that it had a set of brand new beautiful white sidewall radial tires on it. You say the wheel may explode? This education stuff really hurts!

ricosan

Ricosan: what did you find that caused your vibration and noises at 45mph? Out of balance tire/wheels ? Bent wheel? Flat-spotted tires?

Inquiring minds would like to know what cured the issues ? !

GLong

Good Morning Greg,

No I haven't got it all sorted out yet. I have managed to locate and purchase 2 rear wheel bearings, 2 pinion bearings and 2 differential bearings. I'm hoping that this will lessen some of the noises coming from the drive train. I'm taking my Marmon to a car show in 2 weeks but as soon as that is done I am going to have the rear end bearings replaced. In the mean time I'm on the hunt for parts to replace the Spicer universal joints inside the enclosed tube. I want to check the harmonic balancer too. I'll keep you posted.

ricosan

I'll recommend you save your money and time finding U-Joint parts. I really doubt that your vibration is caused by the driveshaft. And it's easy to test: remove it and take it to a driveshaft building shop. They can put it on a machine and check it for being straight and balance it.

The old style U-Joints will require a good machinist to turn or OD grind the pins and re-bush the bearings with brass. But unless there is a lot of play in them, they will most likely not be the issue.

Did you try swapping the front wheels and tires with the rear and see if there was any change ??

GLong

After replacing the bearings in the rear end I intend to continue up the drive train. I don't know if the drive shaft universals are bad but I am getting a lot of grease slung from the seals at both ends so this will be addressed and while I have the shaft out I intend to remove the transmission and check/replace the bearings in there if necessary.

I haven't tried rotating the tires front to back to see if it makes a difference. I'll have to do that when I get it on the lift.

I've been busy the last few days moving into my new garage. It's taken 5 month for my builder to get the job done! I'm building some work benches and organizing my tools. It's a lot more room than the place I had before (carport).

ricosan

The grease comes out from the flange if the gasket is bad, or if the felt seal around the joint enclosure is loose or bad. These rarely were perfectly 'house-broken' A little grease slung off the joints is pretty normal.

Your original post was about a 45mph vibration, and I'm not sure we/you have located the 'smoking gun' for this vibration yet?? How far away is the car show you are going to? If the vibration is bad, you might be doing damage if you drive it a long way.. No way to know but to find the real cause of the vibration.

I'm many months from moving into my additional shop space. It's amazing how empty and huge my barns appeared when I first set up shop. Now I need to add on just to keep the cars dry. I guess I have a bad case of collector-itis.

GLong

I know what you mean Greg, I've started moving things into my new garage and it all ready feels like I need another ten feet!

ricosan

Buying and replacing parts before you know what is the problem and necessary fix, in my book, is not a wise way to go about this. You may not even get to the bottom of the trouble with this method of throwing parts at it, and may cause other problems in doing so. Good diagnosis is the first step. You may need no more than some seals/gaskets, lube, and balance to be on your way happily.

Of course you are right. I just don't like to take something apart and then take days or weeks to find the replacement parts. Marmon parts are scarce and hard to find. As far as the final diagnosis, I am leaving that up to my mechanic when he gets the rear end apart and examines the bearings. I will use what I need and put the unused parts in the spare part bin.

ricosan

Hey Guys,

Hey Guys,

Well I finally found someone who can help me get this car back to running properly. We took out the drive shaft and cleaned all of the grease and grime from inside and out. We had to shorten it by one inch. Refilled it with red grease and then reinstalled. It sounds better but it still makes a vibrating noise. We didn't replace any of the universal joints or balance the shaft. Balancing will be next.

ricosan