Restoration nightmares

In some respects, you get what you pay for.

For the '62 engine, I went to a machine shop that advertised with the local car club. They had it way longer than anticipated, I had to source some of the parts, and when I got it back, it was the wrong colour and the rear main seal leaked like no tomorrow (on the way to the meet in Rochester, it was about a quart per hundred miles). This was the first restoration work I'd had done and was naive to think I could get the car fixed up and roadworthy in 6-8 months to take it to Flint for the 2003 meet. When I complained about the rear main, excuses were made about rope seals. They went out of business a year or two later. I'm not surprised.

When taking the car to my current shop, they checked that the rear main seal for the V6 was the same part number as for the 215 Al V8, so we got a neoprene seal and no issues there since. They've fixed a number of things since on that car and have done a lot of work for me. I pay a bit more, but they stand behind their work.

This is a third generation shop (4th generation was getting his feet wet a year or two ago). The manager drives a '69 Mustang convertible and his father (80 or 81 and still working on building engines) has a Thunderbird ('57 if I recall correctly). They are working on a truck hot rod project of their own as well essentially from a kit. One thing I've discovered though is that any carb tuning turns out to be rich.

The body shop I've used is one of the few remaining ones here that deals with rust and they do great work. For those of you who know my Wildcat, some folks said it was too rusty to restore. Now it is straight and beautiful. No points were lost on it relating to their work.

I'm just an old softy. 8-)................bob

I can tell

I am reminded of how many times over the years someone, knowing you work on cars to support your hobby, asks for some work or a service and then brightens right up and says "I'll pay you!".

I've done work free, donated money or parts, even given cars to friends. That guy usually didn't get acknowledged. Unless I said "Oh, will you now?"

Bernie

I spent 10 years pushing a restoration shop to get a car done, guy was a good talker. Finally got it and now it sits in my garage and will soon be for sale because of the bad taste left in my mouth. I dont enjoy driving or looking at the car any more. Sad...

A friend of mine had his '57 Cadillac convertible at a body shop for 11 years. The owner of the body shop disassembled the car and stripped the paint. After all those years of B/S my friend ended up taking it to my son's for restoration. It came to him in boxes and my son had to figure how the car went back together. The car was at Hershey in 2010.

I guess the occasional machine work or repairs I do for the cost of a good breakfast at the diner has got to stop. 8-)................Bob

Bob, unlike me, at least you get a good breakfast.

Some guy bought a 1955 Century convertible about five years ago and brought it to my garage. I began disassembling it and doing some very fine and detailed work on the restoration of this rare car. Unfortunately, he became a stay at home dad and quit his job and now doesn't have as many funds to complete it as he did when he was working. There are now parts all around my garage and the poor dusty convertible is still awaiting its glory days while I work on other people's cars.......

A common tale I think. By rights you should be charging a monthly storage fee or at the very least a good breakfast.......................Bob

I have breakfast with the owner's wife and son every morning.

(My car)

HAW HAW HAW. Never saw that one coming..........................Bob

Mike

I read that like a open book!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just finished reading through this thread. Pretty much confirms what I've discovered so far on my own. It's hard to trust any outside source with an old car and/or parts. I'll share my two worst experiences thus far.

When I got my '52 it had no brakes. This was my first project. My Dad and I spent untold days and gallons of brake fluid on them to no avail. Eventually, I decided to send my master cylinder to a well-known machine shop in Washington to be re-sleeved. Got it back in a timely manner and re-installed it. I now had some measure of brakes but not nearly what I thought I should have. This being my first car older than 1977, I thought maybe that's what manual brakes are supposed to feel like.

My Dad and I took the car on a 200 mile trip over mountains to attend a car show. After some close calls trying to come to a stop I decided something was still not right. I took the car to a mechanic that specialized in tri-5 Chevys. They took the master apart and discovered metal shavings inside from the sleeve job. They cleaned it and put it back on. I picked up the car and 200 bucks later, still no brakes to speak of. As a last ditch effort, I took the MC off and took it apart. I put it back together for what seemed like the millionth time and put it in my vise to bench bleed it. That's when I noticed something. There are supposed to be two holes down inside the cylinder for fluid to enter and exit, one large and one small. THERE WAS ONLY THE TINY ONE! The brakes should not have worked at all. By some miracle, my Dad and I lived through that one. The Washington shop took the MC back, drilled the other hole, and sent it back. I opened the package to find that my original MC cap was gone, replaced by a badly made repro. I called them again and they magically "found" my cap lying around and mailed it to me.

Second story involves a well-know classic car tire company. I shelled out near $1000 (no small amount for me to be sure) for brand new 3" wide whites. A few months later, the white walls looked like a desert floor. Upon closer inspection of the DOT numbers, the "new" tires were 12 years old!! Cracked from dry rot! I put 2,000 miles on those things, a lot of it Interstate. After proving my case with photos and pointing out that they had put my life at risk, I was able to get a new set put on and get a full refund. However, upon arriving home in Michigan I have found that one of the tires is damaged. It was marked with a long yellow mark. When I scrubbed it off, underneath was a HUGE rub mark. Looks like it hit a curb. So I crawled underneath to check the DOT's. The last two digits (the ones that tell the year of manufacture) of several tires look like they have been ground off purposely. The tires that do have the last two digits have numbers that don't make sense! I've had it with that company! I'll be taking my business to the little guys next time (if the big guys don't buy them out first).

Robert, these tires you're having troubles with are the new ones you just got recently? Month or so ago? I purchased 4 new a month ago. Love them. However, I had to show the tire guys how to air up a bias ply tire. The willingly dismounted my old tires and mounted the new. Airing the tires up was a mystery to them. They simply gave up. I worked for Goodyear 11 years and used the Coats mag machine more than I wish to admit. I asked if I could air up the bias ply. First shot on the first two no problem. I showed them the trick and let them handle the last two. They then balanced them. What got me hot under the collar was the head mechanic stating not to spend do much time attempting to air up the bias ply. Just mount the new and send me out the door with flat bias ply on the rims. Bead not set. The youngest of the group did not give up. It was this young fella that watched and learned thus being able to completely air up the last two. Guess who got the tip?

Robert, removing the date code may even be illegal. You know how to check the date code, now check the manufacturing plant code: http://www.harriger.com/tires.htm

I checked one of the tires I bought with the deviant white wall size (post #30) and the whole code is: YN2A1A5031 The last 4 digits don't make sense (50th week of 2031????)...YN manufacturing plant is 'pacific rim' although it says 'made in USA' on the tire.

Willie

We always soaped up bias ply tires to make them slippery, otherwise they would not always seat correctly. Dandy Dave!

We always soaped up bias ply tires to make them slippery, otherwise they would not always seat correctly. Dandy Dave!

Yes, tire lube/soap helps seat the bead. The bias ply is flat as pancake and if the rim is 5-6 wide it is hard to air unless you pull the core in the valve stem and put the bead over the bottom of the protruding valve through the rim and hit it with the air.

I was a little shocked when I first saw how narrow my 8.20 X 15's WWW were in the wrappings when they came from the warehouse years ago. After taking them out and getting them mounted by my tire guy did they really get their proportions.

I was a little shocked when I first saw how narrow my 8.20 X 15's WWW were in the wrappings when they came from the warehouse years ago. After taking them out and getting them mounted by my tire guy did they really get their proportions.

I had the same problem when I bought the last set of 5.60-13 bias tires for my '54 Met. They were squeezed so much from the wrappers that my tire guy couldn't get any air into them. His tire strap was too big to fit around the tire. He suggested taking them back home and block the beads with three 3" pieces of 2x3s. and let them sit overnight to spread the tires. I took them back the next day and it worked out fine.

I had the same problem when I bought the last set of 5.60-13 bias tires for my '54 Met. They were squeezed so much from the wrappers that my tire guy couldn't get any air into them. His tire strap was too big to fit around the tire. He suggested taking them back home and block the beads with three 3" pieces of 2x3s. and let them sit overnight to spread the tires. I took them back the next day and it worked out fine.

The folks that sold me mine suggested soda cans to spread the beads and get some form to the bias ply. Let it sit overnight. It worked. So does pushing down on the tire as you straddle it.

A majority of the shops have the thick rubber ring or strap to assist in seating the beads but don't know how to use them. Others do not have them at all.

I had the same problem when I bought the last set of 5.60-13 bias tires for my '54 Met. They were squeezed so much from the wrappers that my tire guy couldn't get any air into them. His tire strap was too big to fit around the tire. He suggested taking them back home and block the beads with three 3" pieces of 2x3s. and let them sit overnight to spread the tires. I took them back the next day and it worked out fine.

The things I've missed out on learning because my old car uses tube type tires.

Biggest problem I've had with new bias ply tires that came wrapped tightly was that the top bead wanted to get started on the rim when I only wanted the bottom on. Need to have bottom on, top off to get the tube in. At least the way I've mounted tires.

In a John Wayne drawl, What's the matter Pilgrims, Aint ya never tried either?

Ether? I can't hear well, I have to read the text. Ever notice how the Duke pronounced bury? I grew up pronouncing it "berry" but he always pronounced it "burry". That was alway entertaining to me.

Chris, yes. These are the tires I bought a few months back. The white walls shattered on them due to dry rot.

Robert, removing the date code may even be illegal. You know how to check the date code, now check the manufacturing plant code: http://www.harriger.com/tires.htm

I checked one of the tires I bought with the deviant white wall size (post #30) and the whole code is: YN2A1A5031 The last 4 digits don't make sense (50th week of 2031????)...YN manufacturing plant is 'pacific rim' although it says 'made in USA' on the tire.

Willie

Willie, it probably is. If I hadn't of gotten a full refund on top of a "new" set of tires I'd be giving them a piece of my mind. Such as it is, I'm choosing to move on and take my business elsewhere next time. I didn't write the code down but I do remember that two of the tires had "31" as the last two. Doesn't make ANY sense! Seems to me they could get in a LOT of trouble for fudging DOT codes. Weren't those created and enforced by the government to provide a safety measure for the consumer?

That "well known" tire company does not know, and may not care, but they just lost this future customer!

Chris, yes. These are the tires I bought a few months back. The white walls shattered on them due to dry rot.

I'm sorry to hear that Robert. Nothing like replacing a set of rotted tires with another set of rotted tires. This time you got to pay for the rotted tires. It has gotten to the point were one needs to check behind every transaction. Although we all did in the past it seems we need to be yet more vigilant in assuring we are getting what we paid for. When I received the tires I purchased I immediately checked the manufacture date. The tires are 3 years old but were supple and looked fine. I really did not expect to get a tire that was less then a year old. Let's face it, how many bias ply are selling everyday to warrant production to ramp up thus assuring fresh tires made last week? Not many I can assure you. I was satisfied with that deduction. As much as I drive the Buick I will more then likely drive the rubber off of them before dry rot sets in.

This one too

That "well known" tire company does not know, and may not care, but they just lost this future customer!

There are or at least there were two well known antique tire suppliers I was aware of. Is it the one who has their own brand? The one I did business with did not sell "their own" tires and I was very satisfied with the products and service.

There are or at least there were two well known antique tire suppliers I was aware of. Is it the one who has their own brand? The one I did business with did not sell "their own" tires and I was very satisfied with the products and service.

You should find your info here:http://forums.aaca.org/showthread.php?t=315000&page=24&p=1287429#post1287429

Here is an email I received today from my last customer.

Sometimes things go very well...

Mike,

Just wanted to take a moment to say Thank you for your help correcting some of the issues with our Buick. In this hobby, it is so very uncommon to find an individual with the drive, enthusiasm and ethical integrity that you have. We also appreciate you doing exactly what you said you were going to do and at the price you said you would. This experience was well worth the 1200+ miles I traveled to get these issues resolved. It is incredible how some of these other guys who claim to be restoration experts survive stealing from innocent Buick enthusiast.

My family wishes you great success in your new business endeavor. As lovers of these ol’ Buicks, our paths will surely pass once again.

Thanks again for allowing us the opportunity to enjoy our Buick the way it was meant to be.

First show this weekend.

Here is an email I received today from my last customer.

Sometimes things go very well...

Mike,

Just wanted to take a moment to say Thank you for your help correcting some of the issues with our Buick. In this hobby, it is so very uncommon to find an individual with the drive, enthusiasm and ethical integrity that you have. We also appreciate you doing exactly what you said you were going to do and at the price you said you would. This experience was well worth the 1200+ miles I traveled to get these issues resolved. It is incredible how some of these other guys who claim to be restoration experts survive stealing from innocent Buick enthusiast.

My family wishes you great success in your new business endeavor. As lovers of these ol’ Buicks, our paths will surely pass once again.

Thanks again for allowing us the opportunity to enjoy our Buick the way it was meant to be.

First show this weekend.

Mike,

Now you really need to concentrate on and remember the nice people like Randy and his family instead of the jerks you will surely encounter. I was glad that Randy found you. My nightmare was recommending that 'other' shop to Randy in the first place. The best thing is that the car was out of that shop even though it was neither safe nor dependable (forgot about 'correct'); but it is now!!

Before Mike let the car go, he drove 60 miles to my shop to pick up some used carburetor parts (Rochester 4GC) to get it running right even though that was not in the estimate or charged for (the 'other shop' left out the power piston and had some of the linkage was reversed).

And remember, those 'other shops' are job security for you!

Willie

Hope you open some franchises throughout the States Mike, so we can all enjoy Randys euphoria ( how's THAT for a big word?)

HAPPY FOR YOU, MIKE. Boy glad I got to shake his hand before he hit the big time.:p

Carry on!!

Ben

Mike,

Now you really need to concentrate on and remember the nice people like Randy and his family instead of the jerks you will surely encounter. I was glad that Randy found you. My nightmare was recommending that 'other' shop to Randy in the first place. The best thing is that the car was out of that shop even though it was neither safe nor dependable (forgot about 'correct'); but it is now!!

Before Mike let the car go, he drove 60 miles to my shop to pick up some used carburetor parts (Rochester 4GC) to get it running right even though that was not in the estimate or charged for (the 'other shop' left out the power piston and had some of the linkage was reversed).

And remember, those 'other shops' are job security for you!

Willie

I say a nomination for the "Buickman Award" is in order .........well done Mike

Thanks guys. I didn't mean to hijack this thread.

Let's get back to trash-talking.

It is a good thread and up to 3 pages. Not enough on the expectations of uninformed, price shopping customers, though.

Although I don't do my own house carpentry work, I do recognize the language. "I think I can save you some money." means "I am not going to do what you ask."

In the car hobby, how about "I can save you some money if I work on it between jobs." means "You really don't care if you ever get this car back." Raise your hand if it fits.

How about "I'm not in a real hurry for that." means "I'll Just tag that as yours so you don't have to fight with the estate to get it back."

Or "The last place I took the car I had them do a brake job and 27 other jobs, since it was there anyway. The cost of that brake job was outrageous."

"Gee, I only paid $1800 for this car. What do you mean it is going to cost $3,000 to rechrome the bumpers."

"Well, she just waved her wand over the pumpkin and it turned into a coach for a princess. You can't even turn my rat into a coachman?"

And the real conversation: "I bought it for $2,000 and I have put another $2,000 into it. I would at least like to get my money back."

"Do you have a new car at home?"

"Yea"

"How much did you pay for that?"

"$25,000"

"How much you figure you'll get on a trade?"

"Maybe $10,000."

"So you bought this abandoned relic for 2 grand, put another 2 grand into it and want to break even. And you bought a new car and accept the loss. Wanna buy a head wrench?"

"For cylinder heads?"

"Nope"

Bernie

My uncle had a sign hanging in the main lobby of his repair garage. It said "Cheap. Good. Quick. Pick 2 out of the 3." Think about it. Sadly, he passed on a few years ago, but I'll always remember that sign. It can apply to any job where you hire a person to do it for you.

I try to do most of the work myself, but I know when I'm over my head, too. In those times, I try to get as many referrals from close friends that I trust before I pick a place to do the work. Most of these referrals come from BCA contacts. I have never had any problems with fellow BCA members. I've been fortunate, so far. No real nightmares to talk about. But, then again, I probably haven't restored as many cars as you all have.

I say a nomination for the "Buickman Award" is in order .........well done Mike

Make it so in the Buickman thread, so we don't forget. I'll certainly second the motion.

I may be odd man out here, but I felt it was wrong fror the place to sell my Buick parts to his other victims, then break his promises to replace said parts. When a business has no ethics it is not just appropriate to trash talk them, it is ones civic duty. I did not try to go cheap either, I just trusted the wrong scoundrel who has no ethics.

Bill Stoneberg started this thread and it seems it never ends for him...maybe just too many things to list on that 401. I was in his garage today helping install pistons. Seven went in easily, but one kept hanging on the first oil scrapper. Tried 2 different ring compressors 5 times ( each), took rings off the piston and they fit the bore ok...finally noticed that the top of that cylinder was not chamfered even a little bit. After taking care of that problem the piston went right in.

Also on the floor was 'rebuilt' cylinder head that had exhaust valve seats installed...a center punch was used to stake the periphery but for less than 120 degrees. And these cretins call themselves professionals...

Willie

I have been on this forum since 2006. The same stories keep surfacing. From 1991 to 1999 I serviced collector cars. I would only work on restored or good original cars. My specialty was making them start, stop, and steer. Most fell short in one area or more. I had about 30 cars that I took care of when I went back to my other career.

Over the last few months I have been looking forward to what I want to do for the next 40 or 50 years (yes, I am 66). A tuneup has been requested for a Centurion convertible. I think this releases the "drawn bow". There are four of my own cars in the garage and I am going to arrange a storage location for one of them while I do the customer car. And others will follow.

Location is an interesting challenge. My area is not good for weather or discretionary spending, What is a good location for a collector car service business? Should I contemplate trips to Sweden or Germany, maybe Australia, to service US cars of the ;40's, 50's, and '60's?

Summer is here for this hemisphere some people will be unable to attend events because of reliability issues. Some will have nagging problems that can be deferred. Make a list of the shortfall in fun you are having. I have an address of cruizing@mainstreetsteel for that.

I remember seeing about 5 big smiles and waves today. If you think THEY were happy......

Good mechanics create serotonin.

Bernie