Restoration nightmares

Ever get your car back or your parts back from being worked on and have them all fouled up ? I know it has happened to me on various cars.

i got a nailhead back from a reputable shop that built it as a Chevy motor. It was timed wrong, balanced wrong and generally messed up beyond belief.

what have you gotton back like that ?

I gave my 1940 LaSalle to a glass shop to replace the windshield and the gasket. When I got it back, the stainless trim on the center bar was standing up about 1/2 inch higher than the glass. You could see daylight between the bar and the trim. About a third of the trim screws around the inside opening were missing, and the top of the dash had chips in the paint. To add insult to injury, the windshield leaked worse than before. This was a local shop that has a good reputation and has been in business for about 80 years. I gave the fool a 1940 Fisher Body manual to refer to, but he was so smart he didn't need to look at it.

Ultimately, I redid the job myself, following the instructions in the shop manual. There are 5 holes in the division bar for screws to go through. Three of them were empty. The water was coming through the empty holes and flowing down the dash. My redo turned out well. I have no leaks. It looks good, except for the chips on the top of the dash, which I will have to deal with some day.

The moral of this is that referrals don't mean much and the reputation of the shop doesn't mean much. The owner gave the job to a man who had no idea how to do it and who was too proud to ask. Unless you actually talk to the person who is going to do the work, and get very specific about what is to be done, you are bound to be screwed.

I also believe that your best chance to get a good job is to use somebody who is in the car hobby himself. Commercial shops are just interested in getting cars out the door in the minimum amount of time. The quality of the work is a secondary consideration.

OK Bill: The quality of vendors in this area has gone down hill for some time now and it doesn't seem like it's slowing down either. Most don't like old cars and certainly aren't familiar with them from dealing with them on a daily basis. For example......

Machine shops. Fewer and fewer and they make their $$$ on brake drums, rotors and head jobs. If they do a motor it's usually a ground up rebuild no matter what the case. Many hate dealing with the public too.

Upholstery shops. Fewer and fewer, The lousy ones are a nightmare to deal with, the less-than-hand full of good ones are booked for a long time in advance because they are so busy.

Tranny shops. They hate old school because they don't want to tie up their bench waiting for parts, they don't have builders who are familiar with the ins and outs of the old stuff and it's just a major distraction for them in general.

Body shops. No shortage and it's pick a price. Sticker shock here. The body work so much more forgiving than mechanical work too.

Other shops like radiator, glass, TBA places are all geared to late models. Finding a good vendor is tough. Some guys think that if they find a vendor who does quality work located in the sticks or working in a shop in back of their house is like so wow. It's a fantasy, no different than finding a 64 Riviera babied and extremely serviceable from it's original owner. They do exist, just don't hold your breath.

In general a consumer needs to really do their homework before doing business with any shop these days. BTW, I haven't answered your specific question and do have my share of horror stories...with cancelled checks to prove it. Mitch

We sent the GS to get the grill fixed. The shop plastic welded it back together and then called me to ask what color it should be? I told em Argent surround with black grills. They said they could not determine the original color any more and couldn't match it up. So what about flat black. I said I'm on my way down. When I got there they had obviously painted the entire thing flat black after the repair and before calling me. Then they said: well we did the same thing to XXX's car and he liked it. I said : do I look like XXX? Irritates me every time

Being new to charging people to fix their cars, I am finding more and more rigged fixes. It seems that every car I have worked on recently has had wires twisted together under the dashboard with merely a single wrap of electrical tape preventing a fire.

Here is the car I am currently working on. These are just three pictoral examples of many flaws. Some cosmetic, some mechanical, and some just outright dangerous.

Window doesn't close all the way:

Improper (and at the very least unsecured) rubber fuel line rubbing against rear tire (fire hazard, anyone?):

The rear quarter molding was installed upside down . The driver's side was installed on the passenger side, and vice versa (concave to concave would have been a giveaway for a non-Buick shop)

This is why I do everything possible myself. Nearly everything I needed have done by someone else has ranged from not quite right to just plain F'd up.............Bob

This is why I do everything possible myself. Nearly everything I needed have done by someone else has ranged from not quite right to just plain F'd up.............Bob

I second that opinion! Mud

+1

Finding a good vendor is tough. Some guys think that if they find a vendor who does quality work located in the sticks or working in a shop in back of their house is like so wow. It's a fantasy.....

They do exist

Yes they do

This is why I do everything possible myself. Nearly everything I needed have done by someone else has ranged from not quite right to just plain F'd up.............Bob

I might add that this is even possible by pros too. I have never picked up any car from a body shop when they said it was ready. I would always find things to reject and not one penny would be paid until I was satisfied.

Do it yourself. If you find a Buick too difficult find a simpler collector car. Finding a good shop to do your work is like asking which bar in town would be the best place to find a new wife. It ain't gonna be a happy experience.

Yesterday I was preparing a new bumper cover to install on my '94 Impala. It had rubber seals under the headlight area held in place with nylon push pins. When I put them on the rubber was wavy at the pin locations. I got out a drill index and a hand drill. Most of the shops would laugh at a hand drill, ask if it was an egg beater or make some stupid remark. They would also tell you the wavy strip was the way they all are.

I used three incremental drill bits to open the holes for a nice fit. It took about 20 minutes to do both sides. That would be $30- $60 shop time IF the shop even conceived the idea. So if a shop charged me $200 to install the bumper cover right I would have been happy and forget the price when I looked at the nice job. If they charged $170 and did a half assed job I would have noticed every time and remembered the exact price including tax. The shops that CAN do the work get a preconceived idea that everyone is cheap and won't pay for good work. The price shoppers keep proving it to them.

The rewards go to the mediocre shop where the owner is always expecting a dispute with unhappy customers and the fairly priced shop that does a good job goes out of business because that brilliant shopper "found a cheaper place".

Having extra cars for toys is a rich man's hobby. That gets reflected in the service providers.

Being rich in the skills to do it yourself is a great gift and like most riches, one has to earn it.

Bernie

This is why I do everything possible myself. Nearly everything I needed have done by someone else has ranged from not quite right to just plain F'd up.............Bob

Everything possible here. Machine shop work is one exception and a never ending source of ulcers. An old thread as an example:

http://forums.aaca.org/f115/350-swap-55-a-179860.html

More recently I had a cylinder head in the machine shop due to a leak into the combustion chamber. They found a leak at an exhaust valve seat that had been installed with JBWeld (a previous shop probably thought I would not notice....I only have seats installed if they are recessed to the point of being unusable). I found them a replacement head right away, but it took them 3 weeks to tell me to find them some intake valves. I got those right away, and in another 3 weeks when I inquired about the slow pace, their response was: "Is that your only car?"...wrong answer . So now it is installed and I have sticking valves. Seems they ignored the specs I brought them for a 322 nailhead (valve stem clearance in guide: inlet=0.0025; exhaust=0.0030...they set at 0.0010 and 0.0015...probably standard chebby) I am using 2cycle oil in the gas and hope they wear in before poking a hole in a piston.

There are very few people that I will let work on my stuff...Mike is one of them. That car he is working on now...it is unbelievable that any restorer would give it back to a family in that condition. I would want anyone who disassembles one of mine to find nothing I would be ashamed of.

Willie

I am using a shop to do my 1939 in New Zealand. They have been fantastic but not cheap. I do not have the time myself but hope to when I retire from my current profession. I think the best indicator of the shop is do the staff have old cars themselves. I usually only get to check the progress on my car on the weekends usually Saturdays and there is nearly always 2 staff members in the shop working on there own old cars. Only when you have owned and old car yourself can you appreciate the subtleties and frustrations of fixing and repairing 50 plus year old things, and the longer you own an old car the more particular you get about doing it right. But it is not just cars that are the problem, the quick fix mentality applies in all trades including house trades as well. Ever tried to get a decent tiler/stonemason/bricklayer/plumber/builder? personally I avoid any tradesman who is under 45 years of age or someone who completed a "modern apprenticeship". The problem is they do not know what they don;t know. You need, in life ,to know your level of ignorance ,not your level of competence, and that comes with grey hairs ( sometimes)

cheers

Andrew

Andrew, your comments remind me of a Scot carpenter who came to quote some work on my 1856 farm house. He had been in the States for about 30 years and sounded like he just got off the boat. The longer he talked the more I realized that he had never listened to anyone. If he had he would have learned the language. That turned on a light and ever since I pay attention to those whom never lose their accent. Amazingly, they are all non-listeners. Just watch Uncle Angelo at the next family get together.

Bernie

I LIKE that, Bernie.

Ben

The good people are the ones that don't have to advertise.

My list of complaints is long and boring. I'm on my 3rd resto shop; 4th car. The local one is the greatest offender for length of time and after not finishing in 6 years.... I pulled it away and cannot seem to work on it myself. Because of some really basic work being done wrong. I did the engine assembly myself, that worked. Steering box looks fine but is leaking. Nice job!

Yup. I'm a firm believer in doing it yourself. Years ago when I was a youngster of around 9 years old, my granddad gave me some old one lung engines. One of then was a 6 HP Kenwood built by Stickney and sold by Sears and Roebuck before the Economy line. The governor was well worn and I was recommended a machine shop to have it reworked. Also the igniter had a badly worn shaft. When it came back it was bent. This was after owning the engine for a few years. Well they did it, and charged $400. :eek: This was around 1974, and we felt like it was a real screwing. Especially to a kid with a hobby. This experience started me in learning how to machine stuff myself and becoming self sufficient in many ways. Now I have a reputation of being the go to guy in this area for anything that is old, and seems impossible to fix. I have fix a lot of stuff in the area and usually I don't hear anything for years. One day I will get a phone call that there is a problem and could I come to look. I usually say, "I thought you were mad at me because I have not heard from you in a very long time." Their answer... "Well no Dave., It has been running good up until now." I must be doing something right because I have never had to advertise. Heck, I don't even have business cards. Just word of mouth. And I have more work than I can do. Dandy Dave!

From where I sit/stand it's NOT ever about finding someone to work on my car, I, like so many of YOU, enjoy the challenge of what's at hand.

Sure I had my interior done outside, BUT, I had researched the shop so well, that I had ZERO fears. Same goes for my 304 stainless exhaust.

Being located in Indy, well that means LOTS of qualified folks for any of my needs, but as stated, I LOVE THE CHALLENGE, so don't look for outside help.

With that said, I'm not a bit fearful of finding a good shop, IF I NEEDED SUCH.

God didn't only give ME good hands, the desire to do good work, and to treat others fairly. I don't/won't forget that.

Dale in Indy

I got lucky at around age 22 or 23. I had a black '58 Chevy wagon with a 283 and a Camaro close ratio 3 speed, bucket seats, Mickey Thompson mags, WCFB carb, and goodies. It had the old style 12 bolt rear end. you know, 12 bolts held the ring gear on, not sticking your head under and counting the cover bolts (I think there is a message in just that thought.)

I picked up a set of 4.11 gears and on that car the taller gears required a spacer plate under the ring gear. Being young and intimidated by such a technical job that needed "set up" of the back lash, I took it to one of those old time, full of crap, "mechanics". He had it for a month or more and I finally went to his place to liberate it. I found it assembled with no spacer and a mile of slop between the ring and pinion. He told me all I needed to do was shift the differential assembly to get the clearance. Now it was MY job. I asked for the spacer and long bolts. He told me I didn't need them and begrudgingly gave them back.

No garage at the time, I went into my parents cellar and put the housing in my Great Grandfathers forged vice. I pulled out the assembly, put the spacer in, and set it up by feel. A little turn on this side, back off the other side, wiggle the pinion, and pretty soon I was happy with the fit and I put it in at the tire shop.

I'm in the black sweat shirt.

Now the story gets better. I eventually sold the car to one of the son's of an absolute wild redneck family. They made the Dukes of Hazard look like the old maid Aunts on "Bringing Up Buddy". They passed the car through a couple of family members, destroyed a couple of engines, and the last time I saw it the rear end had held up just fine for them.

That was over 40 years ago. I wasn't born cynical. I was trained by experts specializing in blundering, incompetence and ineptitude. I told my wife you can spot them walking on the street. She said "Oh, and what would a person think if they saw you walking toward them?" I told her they would think "Who is this blow hard know-it-all......... that just got out of the 60 year old car he drove 200 miles on a 95 degree day and maintains it all himself?"

Bernie

I'm also of the same mind. This includes my daily drivers. Unless it is under warranty at the dealer I handle it myself. I prefer to not have others work on my vehicles for the very reason nuts and bolts that came off most times don't find their way back to the original spot. Hood closed and job considered done.

Not all mechanics are "parts hangers" but a majority are. If the part is not simply hanged on the car then getting it right befuddles most.

Not all mechanics are "parts hangers" but a majority are. If the part is not simply hanged on the car then getting it right befuddles most.

Yes sir. I cannot tell you how much stuff has been brought here in bushel baskets and boxes.... "Gee Dave. Can you put this together for me?"

I wonder how many basket cases BLAMED on shops, when actually the car owner created such, and lies and says a shop failed him?

In our business, 'SPOUSES WORKING ON HOUSES' home owners often tell me that a company messed it up when it apparent to me that no company is that bad. Embarrassed to much to be truthful, IMO

One third of the public is either dishonest, or will tolerate such, so no surprise that many blame others.

Dale in Indy

about 8 years ago I hired a "shop" which has an impressive website. I got recommendations from others who had supposedly had work done there. I wish I had checked more. My car sat for 16 months with only tear down accomplished, although a few things were painted the wrong colors. But what got me was the lack of communication. The guy was "going to call every saturday with progress reports" In reality, I had to run him down to get any answers. Eventually, after growing tired of the lies, I pulled my car out of there in boxes. Some of my parts were used on other customers cars, and some were replaced (as promised) while others are still MIA, missing in Anoka. The guy billed me more hours in the final 2 weeks than he did previously. Obscene hours just to bolt a body on a frame and inventory what was returned? He lied about having employees he didnt really have. I later learned he has a long list of unhappy customers and he lost his "shop"

The new shop did much work repairing and correcting what the self-proclaimed "Tri-Shield expert" did wrong or damaged, about $5,000.00 worth.

Check references, then check some more.

It's a shame that people are out there who will take in work and then use or steal parts for other projects. I took my 1910 Buick engine to a highly recommended expert to have rebuilt. It was complete and original down to the last nut and bolt. After he had it for a couple of years, and no progress that I could tell, I told him I was coming to get it...no easy task, it was 7 hours away...when I got there, there were engine parts everywhere, and boxes of small parts....I should have inventoried on the spot, my bad, I got home and realized I was missing numerous pieces that were specific to the engine....called him, and he sent me most of it, but they were reproduction pieces (some were just raw castings).....he'd used some of my original parts on his engine restoration...just makes you sick.....

About 1/3 of the work we get arrives here disassembled, often by the owner but also many times by other "restoration shops" that gave someone an up front price, eventually realized they couldn't finish the project for the agreed price and went out of business. Some times owners are themselves at fault for going for the low ball price to have the work done. About 10-15 years ago we "inherited" and completed 5 projects from an infamous shop in MD that took cars apart, sold or lost parts, and billed for work that was never done. The shop went out of business and held an auction without even notifying customers of the time and date of the sale. I happened to be there and saw parts being sold that belonged to cars still disassembled in the shop. Crap like that give everyone in the business a black eye.

Here is a case that is no fault of mine. 1930 model 20-25 Rolls. Came here about 12 years ago. Took the engine apart as it was blowing coolant from the exhaust. The head was cracked in the intake ports and this was something I was not comfortable repairing myself. Sent it to a shop to have it repaired. They sent it to 3 different shops to have it welded. The first two held on it for 2 to 3 years and did nothing. Finally after getting it returned a third shop did the welding repair. The fellow that owned the car was suppose to pay for all the parts and welding/machine work. He paid for part of it. It took 10 years to finally have the head returned. The shop called me and said the head was done. The man that owned the car said he did not have the money to get it at that time. So I paid the balance and picked up the head so it would not get separated from the car. The car also needed a ring set as some are broken. A ring set for this car is just over $1,200 Bucks never mind gaskets and the cost of a correct carburetor if one can be found. He did not want to spend the big bucks on the ring set or other stuff the car still needs. He has now past on and it is tied up in his estate but still in my possession. Not sure where this is going to go from here.

I spent 10 years pushing a restoration shop to get a car done, guy was a good talker. Finally got it and now it sits in my garage and will soon be for sale because of the bad taste left in my mouth. I dont enjoy driving or looking at the car any more. Sad...

Here is the quote of the day: "Some times owners are themselves at fault for going for the low ball price to have the work done."

Tearing a car apart can be done easily in a week, putting it back together requires funding for three hundred $100 jobs on the simple ones. A $30,000 bond should be posted for collector cars to be disassembled. Imagine the response to that!

Rolls-Royce heads (and their failure) is a tail all its own. In the late 1940's the 1920's Silver Ghosts were getting holes in their heads. An offering of reproduction heads was made to known owners across the US. That list of owners ws used by Sam Shoup and John McFarlane to invite the owners to form the Rolls-Royce Owners Club in 1951. A couple of years later John lassoed John Utz into the club to become a long term editor and writer for the Flying Lady club magazine. John Utz' last article was about a troubleshooting job I did. A great person, I miss him. Good luck on that 20/25.

In Batavia, New York a Bentley sat in a restoration shop for 27 years. And it is very easy to drive by a body shop with a primered, stripped, and stalled restoration job in my area. And those are the visible ones.

Bernie

...and it never ends: bought 4 bias ply tires offered as 3" WWW; had them mounted and balanced and after installed on car 'something did not look right'. Measured: 2 were 2.75" and 2 were 3.25"...sh- er shucky darn. My first conversation did not go well...some 20's something snot said that was an acceptable deviation. I WILL name the vendor if subsequent contacts are fruitless.:mad::mad::mad:

Willie

I have had a car in storage waiting its turn to be restored for more than 35 years. Sadly, it's MY car.

What amazes me the most is the length of time these shops have the vehicles. I guess, like Dale in Indy, and Dandy Dave, I have taken to the task myself, restoring all the parts myself on my 1957 Buick Special, and learning about the car on the way.

My first foray into do it yourself was when my father backed MY 1957 Chevy Bel Air into a neighbor's car, krinkling the drivers quarter panel quite well. Took it to a body shop (let me remind you, I am a senior in HS at the time), who's owner was a HS friend of my dad and said "$1500 to repair the quarter panel - 1977 dollars! At that point, he might as well said a million dollars! I went to library, took out all the books I could find on bodywork, and also bought a donor car for $200. I cut the quarter panels from the door off to the trunk with a cutting torch on both cars, and replaced the damaged ones on my car. I learned to weld, braze and body solder (yes, lead) at the ripe old age of 17. Cheap? maybe, but more so, willing to learn a skill that had been used in many car repairs and restorations. "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day - teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime"

As in the earlier posts, the good shops are slowly giving way to the mediocre and "fast-turn" shops. I applaud Buick 5563 (Mike Middleton) for going the distance and opening his own restoration business, especially knowing his abilities and dedication to the craft and the vintage vehicles and their owners.

It is interesting that willie uses the term "snot". I mentioned to my wife that I had not used the term since I was a kid and now I have started calling a 20 something waitress in town "the snotty one". She seems to be an unacceptable deviation to me.

Bernie

I just picked up my '58 from the restoration shop that redid the wiring after an electrical fire. I am STILL fighting with the insurance company to cough up a third check to finish payment.

Short list of what is wrong:

-Left turn signal doesn't work

-Left brake light doesn't work

-interior turn indicators don't work

-red lens for high beams is missing

-new, NOS amp gauge, sourced by me because they couldn't find one, jumps around and pegs way right at high speed. The old one moved rather gingerly and never went past C or D.

-radio doesn't work. It mush have been fried by the electrical damage, but he never mentioned it.

-parking brake light indicator doesn't work (it isn't even hooked up to anything)

-cardboard kickpanel on passenger side roughed up.

-There is a relay just to the left of the brake pedal that isn't hooked up to anything. Still trying to figure out what it is for.

-Car was absolutely filthy. Is this normal? I would be ashamed to return a car with 5 months of dust all over it and empty pop bottles in it.

-brake pedal goes to the floor, but brakes do work. I drove it home. They told me it was like that when it came in. Not that I remember. They did inspect and bleed the brakes after I threw a fit. Supposedly, there is a wheel cylinder leaking. I will inspect shortly to determine if that is the case. I sure hope that's what it is.

I paid and got my car out of there. I am not sending it back to them and will not recommend them to anyone. I doubt I can get another penny from the insurance company either to fix these issues.

I'm off to troubleshoot the brake light. Left turn signal was stiff before I took it in, but worked. Now nothing.

I'll start another thread to ask for help after I take some pictures.

OTOH. Just to play the devil's advocate. A competent shop should be charging, depending on it's location, $50 to $100 per hr shop rate. I can easily see trouble shooting and repairing Brian's glitches taking at least a full day. That would have cost some one maybe $750. Insurance would have balked, car owner like wise, so the shop owner either fights with some one or just lets it go. It might have gone down a little better if the shop had said some thing like "we have repaired all the visable damage but there are still unforeseen problems no doubt caused by the fire. We can chase and fix those problems on a parts and labor basis. Please advise.".

Also OTOH I have friend who owns a restoration shop. His work is FLAWLESS. He will not work to a price it's strictly T & M, he also will not work to a quality level it's perfect or nothing, and he only takes one car at a time. But the cost of that devotion will be well into 6 figures................Bob

I heart this thread.

OTOH. Just to play the devil's advocate. A competent shop should be charging, depending on it's location, $50 to $100 per hr shop rate. I can easily see trouble shooting and repairing Brian's glitches taking at least a full day. That would have cost some one maybe $750. Insurance would have balked, car owner like wise, so the shop owner either fights with some one or just lets it go. It might have gone down a little better if the shop had said some thing like "we have repaired all the visable damage but there are still unforeseen problems no doubt caused by the fire. We can chase and fix those problems on a parts and labor basis. Please advise.".

Also OTOH I have friend who owns a restoration shop. His work is FLAWLESS. He will not work to a price it's strictly T & M, he also will not work to a quality level it's perfect or nothing, and he only takes one car at a time. But the cost of that devotion will be well into 6 figures................Bob

Time and Material. Yup, that's me I will not do a job any other way either. Also $50 to 100 per hour. If I like working on it $50 is a minimum if there is a lot to be done and I know the customer is a good payer. If it is a miserable tough job, Pulling steering clutches from a Bulldozer or rebuilding a transmission in one, or something on a large diesel dump truck, then the rates go up to $75 per Hour. Some calls that I have to travel to, I charge for 1 direction and $60 Per Hour is my usual rate for a 4 or 5 hour average job tuning up something like a farm tractor or lawn mower, or a simple repair for someone. Machining and welding can be as much as $100 Per hour depending on how many supplies are used up. Also, an occasional Back Hoe job is $100 Per Hour Rate. I try not to do much backhoe work as I find many people do not want to pay. They think the machine runs on nothing and in never breaks down. Dandy Dave!

Time and Material. Yup, that's me I will not do a job any other way either. Also $50 to 100 per hour. If I like working on it $50 is a minimum if there is a lot to be done and I know the customer is a good payer. If it is a miserable tough job, Pulling steering clutches from a Bulldozer or rebuilding a transmission in one, or something on a large diesel dump truck, then the rates go up to $75 per Hour. Some calls that I have to travel to, I charge for 1 direction and $60 Per Hour is my usual rate for a 4 or 5 hour average job tuning up something like a farm tractor or lawn mower, or a simple repair for someone. Machining and welding can be as much as $100 Per hour depending on how many supplies are used up. Also, an occasional Back Hoe job is $100 Per Hour Rate. I try not to do much backhoe work as I find many people do not want to pay. They think the machine runs on nothing and in never breaks down. Dandy Dave!

I guess the occasional machine work or repairs I do for the cost of a good breakfast at the diner has got to stop. 8-)................Bob

I guess the occasional machine work or repairs I do for the cost of a good breakfast at the diner has got to stop. 8-)................Bob

Yup, Every time you turn on that machine it is costing you. Tool bits, power, and wear and tear, never mind the time. Dandy Dave!

Yup, Every time you turn on that machine it is costing you. Tool bits, power, and wear and tear, never mind the time. Dandy Dave!

I'm just an old softy. 8-)................bob