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1931 Model A


Guest Renes58

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Guest Renes58

I purchased a 1931 Model A from eBay and when I received it the vin# on the pink slip had an extra digit than the number on the engine block. The CA DMV would not register it and referred me to the CA CHP. The engine number has been re-stamped (who knows when) and the CHP says the engine must be destroyed due to it being altered.

Does anyone have any advise with this situation? I cannot believe this engine has to be destroyed. I have read that these engines do get re-stamped when the block is replaced.

Thank you

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Guest Commodore

Is the car currently registered in a state other then California? If so may be you get that state to correct the title. Also the serial number is stamped on the frame in one or more locations i.e. top of left hand frame rail near Number One body bolt, left hand frame rail top towards rear, and rear crossmember on top. Finally you should read this web post on Model A serial numbers to see you can figure out which serial number is correct, the engine or the title.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm

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Guest Renes58
Is the car currently registered in a state other then California? If so may be you get that state to correct the title. Also the serial number is stamped on the frame in one or more locations i.e. top of left hand frame rail near Number One body bolt, left hand frame rail top towards rear, and rear crossmember on top. Finally you should read this web post on Model A serial numbers to see you can figure out which serial number is correct, the engine or the title.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm

Thank you for the reply. It is registered in Florida. I called them when the DMV here in CA informed me the number on title did not match the engine number (one extra digit on title). They told me it came in clear when registered in Florida. I am sure they just did not see the missing digit on the engine block as it is hard to read. CA has a municipal code that states that if any altered numbers are detected on vehicles that part must be destroyed. I would think that these engines, if replaced back in the day, were re-stamped to identify the car. The frame number on this car does not match the engine.

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The number on the frame matched the original engine number and was used to register the vehicle when new. When an engine was replaced or rebuilt , sometimes there were additional numbers or letters added to the engine number to identify a replacement or rebuilt engine. At some point ,when being sold, the number was unknowingly mistaken for the original number and changed. No one in the current DMV is going to know this. If the title was clear in FL. then it should be verified and accepted in Ca. If you can see the frame number , then you have the car dismantled. You may have to provide documentation to the DMV that the frame number is the orginal number and have the title corrected. Good luck! If all else fails, move to an normal state!

Edited by jpage (see edit history)
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I had similar issues in the state of Washington. In my two cases, it was a rude inspector who did not know (and did not care) that Buick used rivets to attach the frame number plates. I contacted the State Patrol officer in charge of vehicle inspections and sent him links to websites to prove this was correct. He authorized the registration of my 24 Buick.

However, I got the same inspector for my 12 Buick, who registered the car with the engine number when he saw the riveted frame number even though he clearly knew it was correct. I suggest you escalate this to someone reasonable if you can find one in California government.

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I had similar issues in the state of Washington. In my two cases, it was a rude inspector who did not know (and did not care) that Buick used rivets to attach the frame number plates. I contacted the State Patrol officer in charge of vehicle inspections and sent him links to websites to prove this was correct. He authorized the registration of my 24 Buick.

However, I got the same inspector for my 12 Buick, who registered the car with the engine number when he saw the riveted frame number even though he clearly knew it was correct. I suggest you escalate this to someone reasonable if you can find one in California government.

I'm not sure if the AAA does registrations anymore but if you have membership with them you should try them. Once I found out they did a better job without any hassles than the DMV there, I had them take care of all my registration needs.

Mark, I didn't know that WA still did vehicle inspections. I've bought many cars from out of state and the last ones they did was in 1998 when I moved up to have my own cars from CA re-registered to WA titles.

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Good luck! If all else fails, move to an normal state!
Let's see here. The engine number has been re stamped. The frame number does not match. It is pretty obvious that someone bought a title and restamped the engine to match the new paperwork. There is a possibility, though slight, that this is a stolen car. Because Florida was stupid enough to register it does not require California to follow suit. There is outright funny business going on. Though we are full of fruits and nuts here, CA has one of the easiest DMVs to deal with Edited by 58Mustang (see edit history)
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Guest Commodore

OK, just to get this straight, the frame number does not match the number on the title? If it does not that means you have three different serial numbers for the vehicle. The title number, the engine number and the frame number. I was hoping the frame number matched the title. This would have allowed you use the frame number and bypass the engine number.

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It's not totally unusual to see different numbers on Model A's. The frame number, which is the original engine number, is not visible after the car is assembled. When the engine was changed the original number was not restamped on the block so the engine would carry another number. Somewhere along the line, who knows, maybe many years ago, the number on the title was probably changed to correspond with the engine in the vehicle at the time. This would make the title and the only traceable number the same. Chances are that there were mutiple engines in the car during it's lifetime as many A's had several engine swaps over the past seventy years. It's next to impossible to convince today's DMV officials of how cars were numbered and registered long ago. They only know the current rules and could give a hoot. I found that the numbers on my'36 Dodge title are backwards. This car was originally titled by the serial number but my title has the body number listed as the VIN. I'll have to get that changed I hope! You may have to show a CHP officer the original frame number to validate the title number.

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Guest Tusler 49 New Yorker

Back when I lived at Panama City, Fla I bought a 58 MGA that had a Florida "clear" title. This was a stolen car, I found out later...a person stole it from Detroit, MI then took it to Alabama where they hand wrote a bill of sale, this was then taken to Florida where a title was issued for the car. If it looks like numbers have been changed on a car coming out of Florida I would be highly suspect of something amiss.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Welcome to my nightmare. Titles and bogus VINs are the bane of my existence. I spend at least an hour a day and as much as 20% of all my time chasing title issues and it is never easy, consistent, or even logical. I lose sleep over it, my hair turns gray, and I'm pretty sure that when I finally snap, I'm not going to the post office for a shooting spree, I'm going to the DMV. Every time I walk into the DMV office, even if it's something I've done a dozen times in the past, I know that whomever I deal with on that day will have some new procedural wrinkle to throw at me. (Note to fellow collectors: please, for the love of Pete, title your old cars in your own name--don't leave it in the 1962 owner's name like the past three owners did, because he and all his ancestors are dead. This makes your car virtually impossible to sell, and no, I don't care if you don't like to pay taxes--form a Montana LLC and title your cars there.)

Anyway, I have dealt with this specific issue on a Model A and will be dealing with it again in a short time. Just today I was at the inspection station with a 1966 Lincoln Continental to have a bogus VIN corrected. My experience? Every state is different. In New York, you can simply fill out a form and provide a rubbing of the new and old VINs and some photos, and they'll change it on the official paperwork. Easy! In Ohio, I was just informed today that a Model A with an engine swap that is titled by engine number is impossible to change unless I want to have a "Home Built" title and a 2014 VIN and model year assigned to the car. Yep, that's right, I'm the very first guy in Ohio history to ever own a Model A that needs a replacement engine block. Wow! (NOTE: sarcasm). On this Lincoln, when I told them what the issue was and where to find the correct VIN, they assured me they didn't need any help and knew where all the "secret" VINs were on the car, and they didn't want to tell me because, you know, they're secret. An hour later, they came out to ask me where, exactly, the VIN was on the car. Derp.

My advice is to call several different DMV offices and ask several different official people what to do. When two or three give you the same answer, then that's your most likely course of action. Ask that person for their name and make a point to go see that person, even if you have to drive two hours to get there. Remember, to get a job at the DMV, I believe you have to fail an IQ test, have the attitude of a swarm of hornets, and the same amount of sympathy as a tornado, so just bear in mind that it's always easier for them to just tell you, "Tough luck," than to actually help you solve a problem. It's almost smoke break time anyway. They don't care, they don't have to, they're the government. So ask multiple people and see what happens. You will probably have to talk to 15 different people to get the same answer twice, but keep trying.

Failing that, there are also title services you can use that can generate a new title out of nothingness, and they're legal. Some states reject titles created this way, but you won't know until you spend $1000 and get the paperwork done. That's a last resort, and it works about 70% of the time.

I would recommend against trying to change numbers on the car to match the title, which is technically fraud and ends up with the government impounding your car and fining you or throwing you in jail. Don't do that. However, you should also bear in mind that the inspectors at the DMV stations are not experts on any old cars of any kind (they're not experts on anything except being unpleasant jerks), so who is to say whether an old-looking stamped metal tag affixed to the frame or firewall isn't authentic...

No, I don't have a bad attitude. Not at all. Nope.

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Well put, Matt. I understand your thoughts and frustations.

In the old days of the hobby, titles were not taken seriously. Today, they are taken very seriously. Auction companies can not legally take cars that do not have titles in the seller's name that match the vehicle's vin and cars can not be exported without real, matching titles. If someone is getting a loan to buy a collector car, the bank will want to see a current title, not something from 1962 issued to someone who has been dead for three decades.

Like Matt said, when you buy a car, get it titled into your name and make sure the VIN matches the title. I am currently dealing with an estate where the old time collector never titled anything in his name. Some titles are lost, some do not match the cars, some are as old as the car's themselves. The owners/heirs are having a heckuva time straightening things out and proving ownership.

Another wise idea is to form a trust and have the cars titled listing the owner as "The Trust of Susie and John Doe". That way, when you die, which we all will, your heirs can sell the vehicles without getting them retitled into their names. I believe there are tax benefits to this as well.

Edited by motoringicons (see edit history)
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And then there is me, who went to Cincinnati to pick up my Volare. I wanted to get a Drive away permit from Ohio so I didn't have to transit home with plates from one of my cars from Illinois. When I didn't have my Social Security Card with me(Illinois does not put the Social Security number on our Drivers Licenses)(this was in 2007) and the number was required to have a temporary plate issued to drive it, the DMV worker went to the trouble of finding a way that amazingly didn't have a fee to allow him to issue a temp plate. So apparently every DMV has a few good workers.

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