What Happens If . . . ?

Terry, why wouldn't you be able to put it with the rest of the cars? If it isn't modified, and you mention a trailer, so it certainly won't be in the driven class that doesn't leave to many options. I think a lot of people are under the wrong misconception to think a car has to be a 400 point show piece to be entered into the judging part of the meet. If all the cars were perfect in that section, there would be no need for first, second and third place awards as everyone would be going home with a gold award. I can also assure you that many go home with nothing in that section. That said though, those good old boys that drive their cars to the meet gotta have that driven award. The poor guy that worked his butt off, drove it there and didn't get an award goes home empty handed but that guy in his daily driver that gets his "driven award" gets to go home pounding his chest that he got an award. I for one think the driven class is what started all these issues. Get rid of it, go back to how the shows used to be set up and all the problems are solved. The Driven Class has been controversial from day one and was force fed by a certain board member at the time. It's really an easy fix, isn't it.

I can not believe all that I have read, makes me think, DO I WANT RENEW MY BCA MEMBERSHIP?

Not that I contribute much, or would be missed, one thing for sure I won't have to read all these negative posts.

Dale in Indy

Dale, but you would miss the one shining star of having a BCA membership and that would be the Bugle.

Keith, I did not say which class I wanted to enter the '16 in. I would like to enter it in the display only class. Now, if the chief judge has his way I will not be able to set the car along side a 400 point judged entrant. 400 point cars are the only ones that are supposed to be able to park on the main show field. The precedent was set last summer at South Bend and that's the way the powers that be want things

from now on. God only knows how the unrestored/original cars are going to be treated in upcoming meets.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas America

Original rust ?????? Dave you must be thinking about Fords, and they are not allowed LOL

Chuck

Terry, One last question for you …. When was the last time you went to a meet ?

I did not find you in the registered people at South Bend yet you talk like you have first hand knowledge of the situation.

I still don't see an answer to that question. Inquiring minds need to know. If have gone to a meet, did you attend the General membership meeting, the Board of directors meeting?? When you show up do you do like some and announce your presence and then ask for someone to wipe your nose? Or did you sign up to help? The meet is what YOU make it! The most FUBAR meets were still great and I found a way to have a good time with friends.

Willie Pittman

Keith - perhaps you hang out with different folks at the meet than I have, but I can't say that I've seen anyone pounding their chest about a driven award. It is a nice token that acknowledges that some folks would rather drive their Buick to the meet and get some modicum of recognition for that than entering their Buick in the 400 point judging. I will admit that I certainly acted with some pride last year, but that was more about the fact that my daughter drove the Reatta about 1000 miles to get there, not the Reatta itself.

The growth in the Driven class shows that it is something that was wanted. It also takes a lot of stress out of the meet as you don't need to worry about getting all the bugs off or whether it will be judged appropriately.

I've been on both sides of the 400 point judging and will express my opinion that a lot of the friction created around it surround some of the nitpicking of the judges / judging teams rather than whether or not someone will boast about having driven a Buick to the show. If the judging teams did as instructed in the judging school (5-10 minutes per car and "don't kill the car"), then the entire event would see a general lowering of stress levels. Of course, that is getting a bit off topic.

Getting back on topic though, you are suggesting that we eliminate recognition of people showing up having driven a Buick regardless of condition to the meet. I think that would be a mistake. At least today, people can come away with something a bit more for having driven a car there than the member who flew in and registered without a Buick.

Being an EX BCA member I don't really have a dog in this fight. That said, I do have couple of old Buicks in the garage and I may re-up if a nats is scheduled within striking range. So, as an outsider I gotta wonder just what the Hell is going on. All you guys seem to want to do is argue about who'se "F"ing who over trophies and class warfare on the show field. I hear things like trailer queen, rust bucket, driven, not driven, 400 pointer, original, not original, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I thoght you guys just liked Buicks, all Buicks.

So here's what you do on the show field, or as it's become the battle field.

You park all the cars of a like era/year spread together. You know, like birds of a feather. Even dumb ole birds know they like to be with there own kind. Thems that want to be judged get judged. Thems that don't display a do not judge windshield card. Don't matter if they drove there, trailered there, or got dropped by a heliocopter there. If they want to get judged they get judged on their correctness and condition. PERIOD.

In other words a level playing field where everyone has the same opportunities and rewards, where everyone is with there own kind and can be either happy or pissed off as their nature dictates, and where members can wonder the field and find what they want to see, be it an unrestored but correct survivor, an over restored full blown trailer queen, or just daily driver some dude drove in with just because he likes it.

Oh and one other thing for all the guys that are fretting about unfair this and that. Just check a special box on the entry form and you will be ASSURED of winning a TROPHY...................Bob

It's time to move on, maybe shut this thread down.

This reminds me on the time national group/club invited me to visit a meeting, and consider joining. Well, I attended and two of the leadership got into an argument, and punches were thrown. Didn't join.

Some of these posts should have been handled via PM, IMO

Dale in Indy

I always thought driving my Buick was reason enough, the dash plaque used to be the trinket everyone got. Hmmm. The reason the Driven Class is growing is because all the cars that Used to drive to the meets and were display or do not judge are being forced into it. Again the DC is extra fluff that us totally unnecessary. Who would think at 52 I would be remebering the good old days when the BCA was.

Being an EX BCA member I don't really have a dog in this fight. That said, I do have couple of old Buicks in the garage and I may re-up if a nats is scheduled within striking range. So, as an outsider I gotta wonder just what the Hell is going on. All you guys seem to want to do is argue about who'se "F"ing who over trophies and class warfare on the show field. I hear things like trailer queen, rust bucket, driven, not driven, 400 pointer, original, not original, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I thoght you guys just liked Buicks, all Buicks.

So here's what you do on the show field, or as it's become the battle field.

You park all the cars of a like era/year spread together. You know, like birds of a feather. Even dumb ole birds know they like to be with there own kind. Thems that want to be judged get judged. Thems that don't display a do not judge windshield card. Don't matter if they drove there, trailered there, or got dropped by a heliocopter there. If they want to get judged they get judged on their correctness and condition. PERIOD.

In other words a level playing field where everyone has the same opportunities and rewards, where everyone is with there own kind and can be either happy or pissed off as their nature dictates, and where members can wonder the field and find what they want to see, be it an unrestored but correct survivor, an over restored full blown trailer queen, or just daily driver some dude drove in with just because he likes it.

Oh and one other thing for all the guys that are fretting about unfair this and that. Just check a special box on the entry form and you will be ASSURED of winning a TROPHY...................Bob

Bhigdog, couldn't have put it better myself! Back in 1971 I was part of the first BCA National Meet in Flint (along with my '41 and young family), and it was FUN. My car was no show car, but it was exciting seeing a whole row of '41 Buicks and meeting some really nice people. Even got a chance to talk to some folks with really "old" Buicks. Hopefully, the club can re-create that same feeling for the first time Buick owner bringing their Buick (regardless of year or condition) to a national meet for the first time. We might even create a life long BCA member!

Ted the driven class has nothing to do with the number of people that drive and show up at a national, for years the BCA had cars showing up in huge numbers and we did not have a driven class. People drove their cars and if they didn't want them judged they put do not judge or display only. We were not segregated into 60 different categories. I'm not sure why that concept is so hard for people to grasp

I can not believe all that I have read, makes me think, DO I WANT RENEW MY BCA MEMBERSHIP?

Not that I contribute much, or would be missed, one thing for sure I won't have to read all these negative posts.

Dale in Indy

t's time to move on, maybe shut this thread down.

PLEASE Dale, don't you go away!!!! I don't really consider most of them as "negative posts" as much as just some peoples way of trying to get their point across. There is some good discussion and "some" good points being made here. As long as the post stays on subject, the poster is not inciting and there are no personal attacks or foul language I chose not to delete posts or close the thread. I will however until the point of having to delete or close a tread, edit posts and PM individuals as needed to keep things civil. So like I said, don't go anywhere. At least until the election is over.

Original rust ?????? Dave you must be thinking about Fords, and they are not allowed LOL

Chuck

LOL... Yeah Baby. I've had a few of them! Dandy Dave!

The Buick Club is the largest single marque group on this AACA forum. And we are just the computer literate members! Imagine a club so active they get into these matches over parking at their National meet. Anyone seen the Kaiser Club have that problem?

Buicks are just inherently good cars bought by people with very high expectations and the cars maintain their usefulness for about half a century. That's why so many of the come.

Ever notice how certain vehicles attract a particular attitude of owner? A few years ago I told an engineer friend about Buick winning the Malcolm Baldrige award for customer satisfaction. He said, of course, have you ever know a Buick owner who would admit they made a mistake and were unhappy with their decision? Along that line, I had a friend who warned his kids to be careful driving around Chrysler products. The owner's had already demonstrated poor judgement. And then, when I complained about the defogger on the '90's Roadmaster not reaching the edges, the first friend said Buick drivers weren't expected to have peripheral vision. Stereotypes, why do people work so hard to live up to them.

When we were laying out the 2005 Nationals show field there was a mobile home park at the far end. A couple of members were concerned about parking in that area. Considering it, I got this image stuck in my head of an octogenarian member dressed in his American Legion uniform, flags on his walker, and dragging a condom from the foot as he returned from sneaking off to the trailer park. Then I found out they were woried about vandalizing. We put the Modified Class there.

I have belonged to a lot of clubs and each one has a feel to being a member. The Buick Club is the only one that has felt like a family and I have enjoyed it for over 30 years. I am pretty sure we will be the last generation to enjoy the car hobby in the manner we are accustomed to. We are lucky to have the activities. The intolerance and obsession really are a function of our ages. And at this age are we generally do not have the social network to find replacement friends. That's the worst part.

Bernie

GREAT comments, Bernie!! Especially the "judgment call" on which class to put where . . . and THEY never even knew, until now. LOL

Thanks, everybody, for the interesting comments. Although I just wanted to propose a monitoring system (with reasons why), the passions of many came through really loud and clear.

In this evolving discussion, I've exchanged emails with Bill and might have even discovered a way to do the judging expeditiously. Might be something different than what's been done in the past, but hopefully something that can move the BCA's onerous judging activity (which MUST be pretty-much completed in order to build enough awards for the banquet - - - which I have personal experience with, twice). I feel we can leverage current technologies for the BCA's good, but there can be cost estimates and software issues to deal with. Just have to see how it all "falls out"

Happy Trails!

Willis Bell 20811

My BCA number was 1308 , my BDE number was 001, and my BMD number was 004 ,( I was also the first director of the Buicktown Chapter ) so you can see that I was around Buicks for quite a while.!! The national meets used to be FUN !! The members drove their Buicks to the meet , and there was a lot of comeraderie. It seems to me that it is all about trophies and trailers today. I hope that the members that are vying for the positions on the BOD remember what this organisation was all about , and try to bring it back.

I have never been to a car show, meet, regional or national that I didn't have a good time. Anyone who claims otherwise, didn't come expecting to have a good time. The cars are just the tie between us car guys, the friendships come from that. I am submitting my car for the first time for 400 point judging as I have never had a car this original. What ever happens happens. After the Portland National, I am making it my car, the way I want it, regardless of how it is judged. I'd sure like to be parked with the other Reattas, regardless of their condition, but wherever they stick me, I sure wouldn't let it stop me from having a great time.

Amen to that,

Dale in Indy

ol' yeller

Looking forward to seeing your car in Portland. As you say no worried. I had my Reatta only one week and drove it directly to South Bend. It now has a BCA Silver Award.

I think you will enjoy the experience. Correction, I know you will. It might be good if you chatted with others that have had cars judged, so you know the process. Maybe attend the judging school, if you have not been before, so you have some idea. I think it a worthwhile effort, even if you do not do any judging.

John

John

ol' yeller You are correct you will be parked with the other Reattas. I am sure you will have a good time but since you come from the north west we may just put you in charge as the resident expert. LOL Judging of you car is very easy, you can look at the judging manual at reatta.org under manuals. Just take a look at it and do what you can to get the most points possible. I am sure you will have some questions, but the Reatta Division has a lot of knowledgable folks that will be more than happy to help you. As good as your car looks in the photo you will be just fine. The thing that you need to remember is if there is something that is not 100% its not a big deal. Everything is in the manual. I will tell you that you must have a fire ext in your trunk as you will need it to pass pre Qual. Your car is a 90 so go find some grey valve stem caps and put them on that is a point deduction.

The car I am driving from Wichita Kansas is a 90 Select 60 and I am not sure what color the valve stem caps are supposed to be, nothing in the manual about Select 60. Have fun and hope to see everybody in July

I was just thinking of the title of this thread, "What Happens If....." ...the Titanic hits an ice burg and gets its bottom wrinkled.... They tell me she is unsinkable. Dandy Dave!

Imagine all the work to win a trophy and then not being able to see your beautiful carpet: http://buffalo.craigslist.org/atq/4336310192.html

Bernie

Bernie,

Reminds me of a guy here in CT. He put them inside the walls when he renovated a bathroom. Image someone's surprise when they find them next time.

Seriously, the guy should give them to a youth sports league. Some can be repurposed with a bit of skill. But I guess we are off-topic here.

John

Post #60 by the old guy (Joe Taubitz) says the meets are not as much fun, I must agree, because he is not there.

Thank You Barney!!!!

I have turned into a "Certified Curmudgeon) and it is difficult for me to enjoy myself at meets where so many are wrapped up in the so called "perfect " cars. I have lived all my life in the Flint area (home town of Buick ) and have NEVER seen a perfect Buick come from the factory. In the system ,as it is , a paint run or a door fit , are point deductions, and they came from the factory that way.

The Buicktown chapter used to have the largest group at the national meets ,and now it seems we could care less.

I have the judges manual & I have been picking the brains of friends who have had their car judged before. I will be replacing a few things to bring it back to original. I don't get to wrecking yards too often so I don't know about the gray valve caps but I'll try to find a set somewhere if I can. Thanks for all the suggestions. I like all Buicks and to me the condition doesn't affect that.

Greg

I have lived all my life in the Flint area (home town of Buick ) and have NEVER seen a perfect Buick come from the factory. In the system ,as it is , a paint run or a door fit , are point deductions, and they came from the factory that way.

Joe - in my opinion, and understanding of the judging system, those should not be point deductions. If that is the case, you have run into a team that is "killing the car" and what we repeatedly hear over and over in the judging school is "don't kill the car".

One of the bones I have to pick is the exemption for senior judges to attend the judging school. If you've judged a few times, does that make you an expert who can't learn something new? Are you infallible? What if you get assigned to a different class? I think that is a change we need to address and we need to have judging team captains who follow the guidelines of no more than 10 minutes per car. This would reduce the amount of car killing that goes on in the judging process and would reduce the amount of time judges spend on the show field. It never ceases to amaze me that every year there is a judging team on the show field for hours when they had perhaps 8-10 cars to judge. If they stay under the 10 minutes per car, they would be done in well under two hours and could enjoy the rest of their day. Shoot, if we had fewer judges complaining about being on the show field for hours, we might even attract more judges, which would further lighten the load. Judging would then be short and sweet and more people could spend more time simply admiring the nice Buicks and enjoying their Buick friends.

Sorry for the mini-rant and getting somewhat off-topic. I get frustrated by people deciding not to attend as a result of getting ticked off by something that shouldn't happen and is completely preventable.

One thing we need to remember and be tolerant of is that we have all sorts of different folks in the club and who may or may not attend meets. For those who attend, they will have different definitions of fun. Some people enjoy prepping their cars for judging and take pride in getting a car to a certain level. Some enjoy the judging process. Some enjoy spectating and chatting with other Buick folks. Some enjoy driving their cars to the meets whether or not it results in an award. Some enjoy the tours. Some enjoy the pre- and post- tours. Regardless of how individuals derive the greatest enjoyment from the meet, it isn't the same for everyone. All should be able to attend, feel welcome, and enjoy themselves.

I agree with what Thriller said in the last paragraph. It is right on target. I might add that every show is a bit different, too, depending on the location and types of tours offered. In my opinion, some people dwell too much on a few negative aspects of the show, and forget there are a lot more positives than negatives. Lighten up, enjoy the largest gathering of classic Buicks annually, hang out with friends you haven't seen since last year, and have fun.

I went to a car show and hockey game broke out. If a car show causes this much stress it becomes anything but an enjoyable hobby. I purchased mine to drive. Sometimes I stop for a show.

I'll get my hat.

The last comment shook some cobwebs. In the mid-1980's I cut the roof off a 1962 Electra 4 door hardtop. I grafted on an Oldsmobile convertible windshield frame and made a padded vinyl parade style boot. You really had to look close to know it was hacked and I took it to a few local car shows and rode around town a lot.

A friend had just finished a painstaking restoration of an AAR Baracuda.

So we are talking one day and he says "I am constantly worked up over my car. I park across parking lots and worry that someone will park next to my car. My stomach is in knots! And you drive around in that car with the roof cut off, having a great time. Something is REALLY wrong with this picture."

He was the guy who made horizontal runs on his inner fender wells because the factory hung them that way.

Cut the roof off, deduct 50 points!

Still holding nothing sacred.

Bernie

Greg, the grey valve caps for the 88-90 Reatta have been a joke for some time. Several years back I contacted every vendor I could find and finally found one that had grey valve covers. They are not exactly like the originals and have a blue tint but have never been rejected. I purchased a box of 500 have been giving them to anyone that entered a Reatta for judging and did not have the proper "grey" caps. I still have a few and plan on giving them away until I run out.

As a Reatta owner, I have been campaigning for the Reatta within the BCA for many years. Early on we were the "outsiders" some "old iron" Buick owner were predicting the end of the BCA with those cars being shown. One pre-war owner once told a Reatta owner, "you just wrote a check, and I had to restore my car" The Reatta owner ask if the engine was rebuilt, and the answer was Yes, the Reatta owner ask if he did it himself, "No I don't have the time and tools" and the Reatta owner said so you just wrote a check! Things have inproved greatly for Reatta owners and the Reatta Division has tried to be a strong part of the BCA. The Reatta Div now sponsors the long distance awards for both pre and post war cars. Look in the new Roster at the number of Reattas owned by BCA members.... we feel it is distinctive Buick and one of the last Buick collectable cars. Reatta owners are just trying to be good BCA members.

I would just make a small argument with Barney's statement. Reatta (and I own one) is hopefully not the last collectible Buicks, but perhaps the latest collectible. I think there may be a few more to come, such as the last Raodmaster and Riviera models. Hope to see some soon.

John Scheib

Barney, I am a proud member of the BCA and the RDiv. I have owned 3 of these great little cars. I have also owned and restored several older Buicks, notably a '65 Skylark, and a frame off of a 1969 Riviera. Four years ago I had a major health problem (Heart attack with a ruptured heart) which curtailed my car resurrection days. I wanted a car that was unique, preferably a Buick, that was classy and didn't require a storage yard or barn for spare parts. The Reatta was a perfect answer. I can no longer maintain a large garage and I just wanted something that I could polish and do light maintenance on. It also allows me to keep a connection with my Buick buddies. I have to admit that it did hurt when one of them asked me when am I going to get rid of the Reatta and get a real Buick. I chalked that remark up to insensitivity.

It is also interesting that a car that Buick built for only 4 years and in an extremely limited number has one of if not the most active forum here. That should say something about the magic of these great Buicks.

ol yeller. From what I see about your car in the photos it looks great. About the grey caps, almost every car in the late 80 and early 90 had a grey cap on every dinky spare tire in the trunk had a grey cap. They are everywhere. Barney is a good source for them and he is also a good guy. I always have a good time and try to make every national meet that I can. The Seattle meet was a good time except for the rain on judgement day....

Dont forget your fire ext.

See you guys in Portland

Remember slow down, dont txt and enjoy the ride

Chuck

After years of competing at the highest levels of competition at the the Mopar Nationals and going through the intense stress of being judged in my class with like cars all near me I now have some Buicks which I love. I would like to offer this advice. Park your car wherever you can, close the door and get out and enjoy the show. Your blood pressure will thank you. Rich

After years of competing at the highest levels of competition at the the Mopar Nationals and going through the intense stress of being judged in my class with like cars all near me I now have some Buicks which I love. I would like to offer this advice. Park your car wherever you can, close the door and get out and enjoy the show. Your blood pressure will thank you. Rich

You get high Blood Pressure over getting your car judged? These show are suppose to be fun. Not stressful. If your stressed about it, it is time to move on.... Dandy Dave!

If your stressed about it, it is time to move on

It sounds like he did......

From a judges standpoint, its amazing how many people are stressed at judging time.

Judging is simply a check of adherence to a set of standards or rules. I guess one could say "I get very stressed every time someone checks to see if I followed the rules." Some say they are stressed, others might say they are entertaining to watch.

My wife has told me not to say in public, the personality traits I have observed and generalities associated with the make of car they own. So I promised not to say anything about the old man in the Dodge pickup who thinks it is his duty to maintain safe speeds on the highway. I just smile at her and point at the tail gate, EVERY TIME WE GO ANYWHERE! Or other observations. However I did write down a few entertaining foibles I noted over the last 50 years and hid them, hoping they will be found and published posthumously.

Bernie

Mopar Nats has a concours-level judging with a 1400 point judging sheet. It is quite intense and picky, BUT the people doing the judging know which clip went where on what model years, too, plus other things (i.e., inspection marks, paint daubs, correct overspray locations on which cars). There are also other "field judged" classes (including a Young Guns class) where some outstanding cars are on display. As the level of execution and knowledge of the cars has increased greatly in the past decade or so, it takes a much better car to get an award than what it used to. This might be where the "stress" can come in, to see if you "Win" rather than "Place", "Show", or "Thanks for bringing your car for us to see." Be that as it may . . .

Although there can be some latent anxiety about the judging, which might be somewhat normal, by the time the judging starts, not much can be done other than to wait . . . which might be the most stressful part of it all. Enjoy the show and use it as a learning experience for future endeavors.

Enjoy!

NTX5467