PA trailer hassle

UPDATE: Spoke with Federal DOT since I received a letter requesting all the commercial requirements be met. The person I spoke with was not familiar with 390.3 but looked it up. In his opinion, if you received any type of compensation (ie 1st Jr.), you must meet the commercial DOT requirements. He suggested I call the Federal DOT offive in my state. Honestly, if this is the way I am being treated JUST because my truck has a GVRW of over 10,000 lbs, I will sell the dame truck and get one under 10K. My car and trailer weight under 7000 lbs. I will update more later today. In the meantime, all AACA members with trucks over 10,000 GVRW need to be aware of this situation. it is not going away.

So he has no idea either? Geez.

I'm in the group that's driven across many states with many trailered cars, and never heard of such.

No. It is based on GVRW. Look on your door post. It is labeled there.

From Motorist.org

Specifically, 390.3(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to -

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

Even with the Guidance below, supplied by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, hobbyists are being stopped and cited by enforcement officers.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and ( the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject

Not all DOT people agree.

By legal definition, compensation does not apply. The definition of hobby vs commercial enterprise is a bit grayer. The IRS definition basically says hobbies are for leisure or pleasure and do not or intended to generate a profit or used as sole income. Expenses cannot be deducted.

The saga continues. I am leaving for Carlisle on the 23rd and need this clear before I leave. I certainly do not want a $300 or more ticket.

I got stopped by DOT in Tennessee once for passing a weigh station. I was pulling my 24' enclosed trailer with a Ford F350 Dually. My trailer has "For Recreational Use - Not for Hire " on both sides and rear. I explained to the officer that I didn't know I was suppose to stop and he showed me my GVWR rating on door post and said since it was over 10K pounds I had to stop at weigh stations. He never said I needed a DOT #, CDL or anything of that nature. The key is the GVWR of the tow vehicle.

From that moment on I now stop at all weigh stations and have never had another issue.

Bob

I spoke with the Connecticut office of Federal Motor Carriers. I explained the situation. Here is a summary of the discussion.

1. Since I own a company (I have a small appraisal business) than I am a commercial entity even if the truck, trailer and car are personal property.

2. Since I have a vehicle which the state registers as both personal and commercial due to size, I must use it for my business which makes it commercial. (I do not use it for business.)

3. "No one who owns truck that size uses it for personal use." She should spend time in Texas where pick ups with GVRW over 10K are everywhere.

4. I must comply with ALL of the regulations including medical, safety check and commercial liability insurance.

5. I must have the name of the business that corresponds with my application on the side of the truck. (I used my name and left the business blank.)

6. Even if I had a smaller truck, if the combined weight of the towing vehicle with trailer and load exceeds 10,000 lbs, it is commercial use requiring a DOT number. (Think about that one!)

I referred her to para 390.3f3 which she said did not apply since I have a business. I leave for the Carlisle Auction next week and plan NOT to put the DOT number on and if I get stopped, refer to the paragraph. This is ridiculous.

I have reached out to my contact at Penndot and asked for an official explanation. I will post here as soon as it is received but I will not be in the office for several days. I use to tow a 43' custom trailer with a one ton pick up. I was only stopped a couple of times in the 30 years I have towed and it seems to me that DOT officials in different states do not always understand the law themselves. Sometimes these regulations go on the books and no one knows about them. While towing the big rig thru WV a trooper told me that I had to go thru weigh station and when I did they were upset that I did!

Last year one of our members was stopped by a DOT officer due to having his trailer tied down "incorrectly". He demanded that the member criss cross the tie down chains one his open trailer. That was the first I heard of the law and the member was from Ohio and how was he supposed to know?

Steve,

Since it has been a couple weeks since you posted, I was wondering if you got a response from your contact at PENNDOT regarding this issue?

I am a new member to AACA but not new to towing. Maryland was the first state I am aware of to change laws to a gross combined weight rather than the classification (i.e. commercial trucks) Maryland set the bar at anything over 10,000 combined MUST stop at scales. That is where the problems I have had for many years come. I have had two car State Highway patrols run me down and escort me back to the scales. I have had all of the examples posted above happen plus some more unreal gems but the one thing that has never happened is asked to look into the trailer. I have met with head legislators, DOT administrators, accountant law persons and other contacts. The over 10,000# scale stop includes virtually all dual axle open and closed trailers including open landscaper trailers when you add the trailer GVW and tow vehicle GVW and is a big revenue maker for Maryland. Maryland does recognize that no commercial CDL items as required by FMVC are needed until that GC number exceeds 26,000 pounds then you are in the big leagues! Most of the problems I have had are at one scale location that is used as a training base. I have researched the Maryland commercial literature and have learned two interesting items. one is that the literature in Maryland has completely left out the section of 390.3 of federal that exempts MOST of us. I believe this was left out by purpose as I have made that aware for years. second Maryland along with many other states has adopted 390.3 in total as it is very difficult for a state to create their own commercial laws given that virtually all traffic is interstate rather than intrastate.

My recommendation is make sure you have the federal 390.3 in your truck and highlighted the recreation use section. Also make sure you have your home state commercial hand book with you and highlight the section that indicates your state has adopted 390.3. I have also been advised to carry a tax filing that indicates you don't expense the car thus you are NOT benefiting from any inflation values. I have chosen not to do that for obvious reasons. I have obtained my federal commercial medical card as that seems to be the focal point of my stops even though it isn't required until over 26,000#.

Some other points of interest. If you own a dually either one ton or 3/4 you could be very close to 26,000 with a trailer which is used by many states for the commercial required break. A one ton truck single rear is close with a larger steel frame trailer behind it. And a one ton is sometimes required commercial depending on how it is equipped from the factory as could be over 10,000. I have gone to an ATC aluminum trailer because of the lowered chassis weight thus helping ensure I stay under 26,000#

Lastly if you have a name on the side of the trailer or the tow truck you are most certain to be not covered by the exemption in 390.3 and thus you might as well get your DOT registration and your log books and your medical cards. Remember to have your manifest correct if you are considered commercial as that will be checked in Maryland.

There is one scale house in Maryland that I have never been stopped and always green lighted through for those that would be interested in using that route.

Robert

Robert,

Welcome to the forums and thanks for the information.

Do we not have a member of the AACA in the Pennsylvania DOT or a contact person who will explain or discuss this recent aggressiveness ? Usually government agencies have a communications group to explain their actions or their lack thereof ? Believe it or not government care about how they are perceived and received ! Wayne

We have hauled antique cars thru Maryland and as far as Wisconsin, Illinois, Florida and Maine using either an open or closed trailer pulled by a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel and have never stopped at a weigh station. We have crossed Maryland on I83, 495 and 695 literally hundreds of times. Guess we're just lucky.

Restorer 32

Yes in many ways you have been lucky as obviously your rig is well over 10,000# combined and probably under 26,000#. But the key word is traveling through. You are on heavy interstate routes and generally the officers assigned at a scale rely on the highway patrol troops to pull someone passing a scale and I doubt they have available coverage on those routes. They frequently have a truck "road block" in MD but I have never heard them use any of the routes you mentioned. I would guess you would have been green lighted at any scale on those routes if you had pulled in as I ALWAYS have been green lighted on those routes.

In the last 10 1/2 months we put 32,000 miles on out truck and trailer. We use a Chevy crew cab 3500 and a 32 foot tag along trailer. I have driven this combo in 42 of the lower 48 in the past 4 years, se we do get around quite a bit. Only in the past 18 months have we had any issues. Once in Vermont for passing a weight station, and once in Connecticut we had a DOT stop while driving at 4 am. The truck and trailer are not lettered at all, but both times the troopers were overly aggressive in asking about our commercial interests. We quickly learned to explain we both work in an office, and we are only hauling our trailer around for VACATION activities. We were questioned in detail over the boxes of parts they could see in the back of our pick up. So now we do several things to keep them off our back. First is we carry luggage in the back seat so they can see we are on vacation and cover all parts in the bed of the truck with a tarp. Second we never mention car meet, drag races, swap meets, or any such thing, only that we are on vacation with our car. Third, be sure to have good equipment that is working properly. The Trooper pulled our break away switch and had me put the truck in gear to see if the brakes were holding. Be sure all lights work, and safety chains are attached. We run extra DOT reflectors in the rear and side for extra visibility. Fourth, we keep a small box in the back of the cab with an air gauge, triangle, fire extinguisher, flash light, AND a truck/trailer check list we mark several times a day that we are checking lights, air pressure, and load. When we get stopped, they see we are well prepared and have always let us go on our way. I had explained to them that we NEVER stop at the weight stations as we are private non commercial carriers ....... and then I add we have never had a problem before. I now carry a copy of the Mass rules and regs for a truck and trailer of our type. One time I had a Trooper disagree with me about needing a DOT number. I showed him my Mass State Inspectors license for inspecting cars and trucks, explained him I was legal in Mass so I am legal in 50 states and he decided I was no longer worth bothering. The biggest issue is their attitude, and if they want to give you a ticket your gonna get one. So I try to be firm and fair as well as polite, but I don't let them push me around. To be sure big brother is only interested in your MONEY, don't give them a reason to wright you a ticket and most often you will be on your way. PS One of my favorite tricks is to wright a new date on top of my break away battery every few months. If I am pulled over during the conversation I mention to them and show them the "new battery" as proof of a well maintained truck and trailer. This works well and most often we are told "all set" and we are on our way. It's easier to out think the "man" than to fight him. A sad state of affairs when the government is going after private citizens for revenue money....... It's time for another American Revolution to get this country back to the people. Ed.

Excellent summary Ed. I think the most important advice is to be able to prove you are in compliance in your Home state along with a copy of the regulations which I don't have, but will before I head out to the Sentimental tour. Bob Smits

UPDATE: Drove to Carlisle. I stopped at a truck inspection at a rest stop. I parked between tractor/trailer rigs and went to the rest room. When I got back, there was a PA DOT inspector checking out the truck next to mine. I got in my truck, hesitated for a about a minute and left. He totally ignored me. (I had no markings at all on my truck.) On the way back, no inspections or issues. I had the car on my trailer both ways. I guess I was hoping just a little for them to say something since I was well prepared but best that no conflict occurred.

A sad state of affairs when the government is going after private citizens for revenue money....... It's time for another American Revolution to get this country back to the people. Ed.

Ooohhhh. Don't get me started. This is not the forum to voice my opinion on this subject. All I'll say is I am with you Ed. Dandy Dave!

Ed I also have had some experiences like yours at one of the MD training scales. Aren't you over 26,000# GCW with that rig? If so I know what would have been asked or written up in MD but since you are truly interstate I am not certain as the MD facilities signs clearly say ALL vehicles over 10,000# must stop. I recently attended my first AACA event in Charlotte and towed my car down and no scale outside of MD was labeled by pounds but class. Enjoyed being there by the way and enjoyed my 36B class! Several very nice cars in that class and I will also attend Lebanon in June and am looking forward to being in 36B!

yes, it is the revenue especially when you learn of some of the fines issued for the landscaper guys trailers.

I spoke with the Connecticut office of Federal Motor Carriers. I explained the situation. Here is a summary of the discussion.

1. Since I own a company (I have a small appraisal business) than I am a commercial entity even if the truck, trailer and car are personal property.

2. Since I have a vehicle which the state registers as both personal and commercial due to size, I must use it for my business which makes it commercial. (I do not use it for business.)

3. "No one who owns truck that size uses it for personal use." She should spend time in Texas where pick ups with GVRW over 10K are everywhere.

4. I must comply with ALL of the regulations including medical, safety check and commercial liability insurance.

5. I must have the name of the business that corresponds with my application on the side of the truck. (I used my name and left the business blank.)

6. Even if I had a smaller truck, if the combined weight of the towing vehicle with trailer and load exceeds 10,000 lbs, it is commercial use requiring a DOT number. (Think about that one!)

I referred her to para 390.3f3 which she said did not apply since I have a business. I leave for the Carlisle Auction next week and plan NOT to put the DOT number on and if I get stopped, refer to the paragraph. This is ridiculous.

The part of all this that keeps bothering me is that you are pulled over for the police or DOT police for a fishing trip. You did not break any law that they know of. Not speeding<st1:PersonName w:st="on">, </st1:PersonName>not weaving<st1:PersonName w:st="on">, </st1:PersonName>not anything at all that they can see<st1:PersonName w:st="on">, </st1:PersonName>so you have no legal obligation to respond to any request to show them anything. Use a video devise with sound when traveling<st1:PersonName w:st="on">, </st1:PersonName>have it ready to turn on. Ask whoever pulled you over why you were pulled over and if the answer is anything other than you were breaking a law it is a fishing trip and you can easily have it thrown out of court. I will smile and take whatever ticket they want to give me knowing that it won’t stand up in court. I don’t know every law in every state but I know my rights as a US citizen and I refuse to let someone take them away. I served in the military and I took an oath to protect the constitution when I joined. Being a cop does not give you the right to take my money on a fishing expedition.

The part of all this that keeps bothering me is that you are pulled over for the police or DOT police for a fishing trip. You did not break any law that they know of. Not speeding<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1:personname>not weaving<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1:personname>not anything at all that they can see<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1:personname>so you have no legal obligation to respond to any request to show them anything. Use a video devise with sound when traveling<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1:personname>have it ready to turn on. Ask whoever pulled you over why you were pulled over and if the answer is anything other than you were breaking a law it is a fishing trip and you can easily have it thrown out of court. I will smile and take whatever ticket they want to give me knowing that it won’t stand up in court. I don’t know every law in every state but I know my rights as a US citizen and I refuse to let someone take them away. I served in the military and I took an oath to protect the constitution when I joined. Being a cop does not give you the right to take my money on a fishing expedition.

Oh yeah. That's what I would do. Video tape a cop that's stopped you to ask for information. Don't forget to loudly remind him of your rights and that he's a public servant. Get right in his face. You might also make sure you wear clean underwear so you won't be embarrassed when they strip search you..................Bob