PA trailer hassle

On my way to Charlotte driving my 06 Dodge Ram 3500 towing an open trailer with my car on it, I was approached by a PA DOT Officer who asked for my DOT number. This is my truck, my trailer and my car. He told me that any vehicle over 10,000 lb GVR must have a DOT number if transporting for commerce purposes. The issue is the interpretation of "commerce". If you go to a meet and travel inter state with a vehicle of over 10,000 Gvr, any item you receive is considered commercial use. For example if you receive your first junior, you used your towing vehicle for commercial purpose!

Violation is a $300 fine. This applies to ALL heavy duty towers, RVS and such. This is a federal law and each state decides how to enforce. They decide what is commercial use even if everything is your property.

Oh... You have to stop at weight stations and may be required to present your log book.

Anyone else had had this experience?

Yes that is very true. My buddy had been stopped by the AZDPS and was told the same thing. I put one on my truck after he told me. I always have my 16' box trailer or utility trailer behind me. Just another way for big brother to cash in. Oh and it has to have a specific size numbers too. At least getting the number is free. How nice of them.

I hadn't heard of needing a DOT number, but I had a similar experience in Ohio with my 2002 F-250 (non-com plates), open trailer and my car on the way to a a meet and I was only 25 miles from home when I was stopped. Only it was local cops who had set up a temporary roadblock to try and catch guys hauling cars for commercial purposes without commercial plates. After checking titles confirming everything was mine they let me go without further problems. They were just out trying to make easy money and evidently didn't have anything better to do.

I'll keep it in my mind, but if I were to put a DOT number on they would probably get me for having non commercial plates and I don't use my truck for commercial purposes. Guess I could be stuck either way, so I'll stick with non com plates, no DOT number and risk it.

I went all the way from here in NY, to California and back last year with my old Suburban and trailer. Picked up a 1915 parts Buick. I guess because it is considered a passenger car instead of a truck they don't bother you. It does not take much to have a combined weight of 10,000 LBS. I could easily been on the edge. Don't dare leave the yard with a dump truck, or box truck without numbers. Don't even think of leaving the farm with a cattle/ horse trailer and half ton pick up with out them. Dandy Dave!

A friend from Pennsylvania was towing a single-car trailer and got stopped and fined for not having a commercial license... towing for personal use. I think he was in Virginia at the time. He discovered that if you use an RV to tow your trailer, there is no problem. So, instead of using a 45-foot-long-truck-and-single-car-trailer-rig, he got a GREAT deal on a like-new RV tractor with a 4/5-car double-decker trailer... quite a bit longer than a regular semi-truck and trailer overall. No CDL needed.

Perhaps SEMA's action network/legislative arm needs to get involved in this somehow....

This is news to me that you must count the truck weight in the overall weight as the total weight would easily be over 10K with a trailer carrying a vehicle? My enclosed trailer weighs 4,300 pounds alone.

I pull with a ¾ ton Chevy pickup. I just got back yesterday from a 2,800 mile tow with a 24’ enclosed trailer with car from PA to Florida with no issues (again). As usual I did not stop at any weigh stations and most saw me drive by. Trailer is rated 10K and with car it is right at 10K. I have over 60K miles towing and have never been stopped. As per the federal DOT a private carrier must have “not for hire” with 4” lettered signs on each side of the trailer to identify it as a non commercial carrier.

I have been stopped for the same reason a number of times including twice in the same day once in Massachusetts. The Truck is an F-350 pulling a 22-foot x 7.5-foot tall enclosed trailer. I will not haul a car long distance anymore w/out proof of ownership because, if they choose to, they can make you park the whole rig on the spot until the matter is straightened out to their satisfaction.

I got stopped because my race sponsor wanted his advertising on my race trailer.

State cop called it a 'financial endeavor' and said I should have a CDL, Health certificate, DOT number and a bunch of other crap. He weighed me and found that part to be legal. No ticket just a verbal.

I went home and pulled the sponsors name from the trailer. A race car on an open trailer is a whole other can of worms.

What a bunch of cr*ap. Been towing my toys for over for 30 years to tours all over the country. Never a problem not even in California with a Great Race car on an open trailer full of signage. Have towed with a van, SUV and a Motorhome. Just a private person enjoying our hobby.

I'd be really mad too if some Barney Fife stopped me.

LOL... Barney Fife. How about Rossco, Enos and Cletus. Or Buford T. Justice.

For those of you interested, please check the following website; www.fmcsa.dot.gov.There are several EXEMPTIONS to the DOT NUMBER rule.When you log on to this website,scroll down to section 390 -"FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY REGULATIONS; GENERAL". 390.3(F) lists the EXEMPTIONS.It might be a GOOD idea to print the regulations and keep a copy with you to show an officer.The officer is counting on you NOT knowing the regulations!

For those of you interested, please check the following website; www.fmcsa.dot.gov.There are several EXEMPTIONS to the DOT NUMBER rule.When you log on to this website,scroll down to section 390 -"FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY REGULATIONS; GENERAL". 390.3(F) lists the EXEMPTIONS.It might be a GOOD idea to print the regulations and keep a copy with you to show an officer.The officer is counting on you NOT knowing the regulations!

My guess is you are referring to: "The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;"

Looks like a more direct link would be: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3

and how do you prove that

I'd think the easiest way to prove the personal property part is to have a copy (not the original) of the title in your name, of the vehicle that's in/on the trailer.

This is a real eye opener to me, I've towed all over and never had an issue, but will be prepared from now on.....

Wouldn't the insurance certificate/card along with license plate registration be enough? Why the need for the title?

Sure that should work, just trying to think "positive"...

Actually you do not have to show any proof of anything when pulled over unless you were pulled over for a violation like speeding or not using a turn signal. Police are not allowed to go fishing for violations. If you get pulled over you do not have to give any information at all to the police unless you are being cited for a violation.

As stated police are doing more fishing now days things like sobriety check points are popping up all over. Just tell them you are not giving any info to them and be on your way. I have a go pro mounted and turned on whenever I travel.

Race cars don't have titles or insurance.

And I am sure that some loads that our old car kind of people haul don't either.

I have reached out to my contact at Penndot and asked for an official explanation. I will post here as soon as it is received but I will not be in the office for several days. I use to tow a 43' custom trailer with a one ton pick up. I was only stopped a couple of times in the 30 years I have towed and it seems to me that DOT officials in different states do not always understand the law themselves. Sometimes these regulations go on the books and no one knows about them. While towing the big rig thru WV a trooper told me that I had to go thru weigh station and when I did they were upset that I did!

Last year one of our members was stopped by a DOT officer due to having his trailer tied down "incorrectly". He demanded that the member criss cross the tie down chains one his open trailer. That was the first I heard of the law and the member was from Ohio and how was he supposed to know?

One of my pet peeves. If we have to have trailering laws they should at least be uniform nation wide. Will be interesting to see if Steve gets a straight answer from PennDot.

Criss-cross the tie down chains??? or criss-cross the safety chains on the hitch?? It makes sense to criss-cross the hitch's safety chains, but the tie-down chains!! If one of the criss-crossed tie-down chains breaks, that would leave your car free to slide the other direction quite easily.

This is one of those issues that perhaps a well worded inquiry to the right people in PA at least may be all it takes. Between Hershey and the multiple Carlisle events taking place in Central PA, I would think showing the hobby some kindness might make sense, the dollars injected into the local economy has to be significant.

So the issue is commercial/combo plates and type of tow vehicle? Or just another example of hassle that can take place state to state more likely?

Criss-cross the tie down chains??? or criss-cross the safety chains on the hitch?? It makes sense to criss-cross the hitch's safety chains, but the tie-down chains!! If one of the criss-crossed tie-down chains breaks, that would leave your car free to slide the other direction quite easily.

Chains or tie downs have to have a DOT Rating. Chains have it printed every third or fourth link. Do not get caught hauling with low grade unmarked chains. And by all means make sure they are heavy enough for the load. If you dig deep enough you will also find that screw type binders are the way to go. Old style over the center binders are no longer legal for many loads. When you cross the chains, it will stabilize the load a lot better. The closer you get to a 45 degree angle, the better. Dandy Dave!

Since I started this thread, I have read the FMCSA regs cover to cover. CFR 390.3(f)(3) clearly states that the rules for personal use do not apply unless noted. I read and searched and there are no notations I could find that 390.3(f)(3) does NOT apply. I am driving to Carlisle in 2 weeks with the same Dodge 3500 rig (12,200 GVR) with combination (Connecticut combination covers both commercial & private. CT required this combination plate or I could get just a passenger plate but not be able to use the truck bed at all.)

I made magnetic signs with my DOT Number, "Not For-Hire" and I put "Ref: FMCSA 49 CFR 390.3(f)(3) at the bottom. I may not put them on unless I am stopped or questioned. I will have the FMCSA book with me. I do not plan to stop at weigh stations. The key is the definition of interstate commerce or commercial use. Some enforcement people define these as receiving any item such as an award since it "increases" the car's value - Hogwash! In my non expert opinion, if I take a car to auction and it is my personal car and I am not a dealer, than it is not commercial or commerce. It is simply a sale of private property. If they wanted, they could stop any vehicle over 10,000 GVR in other than your home state, and claim anything bought or sold found is "commerce". FYI - On the way back from Charlotte, we still had the car on the trailer and did not stop at weigh stations. No problem on the return trip.

This is one of those issues that perhaps a well worded inquiry to the right people in PA at least may be all it takes. Between Hershey and the multiple Carlisle events taking place in Central PA, I would think showing the hobby some kindness might make sense, the dollars injected into the local economy has to be significant.

So the issue is commercial/combo plates and type of tow vehicle? Or just another example of hassle that can take place state to state more likely?

They look at the statement in the FMCSA that states ANY vehicle over 10,000 GVR must have a DOT number. However, the exclusion in 390.3f3 says the regulations in FMCSA do not apply for occasional personal, non-commerce or non-commercial use. Just do not have any company name on the truck or cover it.

Criss-cross the tie down chains??? or criss-cross the safety chains on the hitch?? It makes sense to criss-cross the hitch's safety chains, but the tie-down chains!! If one of the criss-crossed tie-down chains breaks, that would leave your car free to slide the other direction quite easily.

It's off the topic of this thread, but you are completely correct, West. I see the criss-cross tiedown chains (or worse, straps!) a lot, and I always cringe. It's very difficult for the vehicle on the trailer to slide sideways, but very easy for it to roll forward/back. The criss-cross makes it easier for slack to develop fore-aft while providing no other benefit. Make the chains as direct and straight as possible.

I know this is a can of worms, too, but I don't agree with crossing the straps (or chains). One, if you lose a crossed strap, as mentioned, the load can shift TOWARD the other crossed strap. Two, if you lose a strap, the load can also shift AWAY from the tie down point of the remaining strap, as it shifts on the trailer. Three, you've added a side component of force on the strap that doesn't need to be there.

Straight straps, parallel to the length of the trailer, have a straight pull forward and backward, and if one lets go, the other one can still hold load in place. Always use four straps, two front and two back.

Yep, I know, a lot of people are sold on the crossing of straps, but it serves no useful purpose over and above what tight in-line straps will do...........

However, the exclusion in 390.3f3 says the regulations in FMCSA do not apply for occasional personal, non-commerce or non-commercial use. Just do not have any company name on the truck or cover it.

I'm assuming that you can't have a name on the trailer, either???

Guess since my GC is 4475 lbs and rated to tow 5,000 lbs I do not have an issue. Is the best tow car I have ever had.

BTW I use at least two over the tire tie downs. This means the suspension is still functional. Have been told of people who tied the chassis down tight arriving with a cracked windshield, suspect crossing the chains might prevent that.

When I was in the navy, the vehicles on the ship were chained down in a criss cross pattern that allows the suspension to work and not put excess "weight " on the springs.

When I was in the navy, the vehicles on the ship were chained down in a criss cross pattern that allows the suspension to work and not put excess "weight " on the springs.

A ship is not a trailer on the highway and probably can't accelerate and decelerate like a truck can. It also isn't likely to be travelling in excess of 60 MPH. Finally, having the suspension work is exactly what you DON'T want to do, as the flex can introduce looseness in the chains/straps, causing the potential for movement and even having a hook come loose. If you really care about loading the suspension (and frankly, you are worrying too much if you do), use straps that go over the axle so the chains are below the springs and the suspension is not loaded. The vehicle can then bounce up and down to your heart's content.

For the price of ratchet straps and over axle straps, and even the wheel/tire bonnets, it is rather inexpensive to strap your car down well enough that if the trailer got laid on it's side or rolled over, your car would stay strapped to the floor and frame of the trailer. To me, this is a real threat.

I have multiple welded to the frame tie-down rings, I use fore and aft straps for the obvious: acceleration and hard braking. I then also have a second pair of crossed straps, all to the axles. Sometimes I have used the wheel bonnets, but I'm not impressed by them.

I guess I'm a belt AND suspenders type of guy. It certainly can't hurt, right ?

GLong

I have seen a Packard upside down in a trailer when it went off the road. Only damage was from the acid of the battery. It makes a good case for a gel cell or optima. They righted the trailer and drove away. It was bent and racked, but the car did rather well. On they way home from Hershy this year I hauled a brass car home for a local collector. He tied it down himself with cross straps. I was flopping around the trailer by the time we got home. No damage done, but it's why I had him tie down his own car.

When I was in the navy, the vehicles on the ship were chained down in a criss cross pattern that allows the suspension to work and not put excess "weight " on the springs.

They must have connected the tie-downs to the body (or bumper, or chassis) of the jeep. Most people (I'm assuming here, a little) wrap the tie-downs to the axles (or tires).

They must have connected the tie-downs to the body (or bumper, or chassis) of the jeep. Most people (I'm assuming here, a little) wrap the tie-downs to the axles (or tires).

Not me. I criss cross and fore/aft to the frame and pull the suspension down to load the springs. That's the way I was taught in the Navy by grizzled old bos'n mates who'ed griped down everything from tanks to jeeps that stood up to gale force conditions with decks pitching and rolling 20-30 degrees. BTW, that's what it was called called "griping down" the vehicles. I guess because it was a miserable job with heavy chains and turn buckles and everyone always griped about doing it. I can still see Bos,n McClure standing on deck with a cigarette in one hand and his coffee cup in the other bellowing "All right you s**t birds quit the grab assin and get them vehicles griped down right"...............................Bob

I have towed an enclosed trailer 1000's of miles in the last 20+ years without ever being stopped. Have blown by all weigh stations-never stopped. This DOT# is news to me. I do not have anything on the trailer except what the manufacturer put on it. As for criss-cross VS straight straps; I was never in the Navy, so I use the straight method.

I have towed an enclosed trailer 1000's of miles in the last 20+ years without ever being stopped. Have blown by all weigh stations-never stopped. This DOT# is news to me. I do not have anything on the trailer except what the manufacturer put on it. As for criss-cross VS straight straps; I was never in the Navy, so I use the straight method.

Permission granted ...............Bob

I have towed an enclosed trailer 1000's of miles in the last 20+ years without ever being stopped. Have blown by all weigh stations-never stopped. This DOT# is news to me. I do not have anything on the trailer except what the manufacturer put on it. As for criss-cross VS straight straps; I was never in the Navy, so I use the straight method.

Getting a DOT number for your private trailer towing vehicle is asking for trouble here in Virginia. I had a friend that used to haul small manufactored trailers up and down the east coast. His DOT numbers would "come off" after delivering his loads for the fast trip back home. Right, wrong, or otherwise, never give the authorities a chance to "look you over"!

Bhigdog: Thanks, Permission accepted sir.

UPDATE: Spoke with Federal DOT since I received a letter requesting all the commercial requirements be met. The person I spoke with was not familiar with 390.3 but looked it up. In his opinion, if you received any type of compensation (ie 1st Jr.), you must meet the commercial DOT requirements. He suggested I call the Federal DOT offive in my state. Honestly, if this is the way I am being treated JUST because my truck has a GVRW of over 10,000 lbs, I will sell the dame truck and get one under 10K. My car and trailer weight under 7000 lbs. I will update more later today. In the meantime, all AACA members with trucks over 10,000 GVRW need to be aware of this situation. it is not going away.