Need help with 1957 Buick Special (upgrade or not)

Hello Guys,

I hope that I type this so you all can understand me. I have lurked here for some time now reading posts now and then, even looked up posts from the past on 57 buicks. The wife and I have had this car for almost two years now and I feel (I think) I know what I want to do, but I wanted to get your opinions first. I have talked to other car aficionados asking for their opinion, but many haven't had much experience with older Buicks or know of the 57 dilemma.

Here is my dilemma. First off as many of you likely know, the 57 buick suspension is an oddball system. It's four times more expensive to refurbish the front end than a pre 56 or later 58. I'm considering switching out the 57 design for the later or older suspension. I don't really even know if this is feasible. Here is my reasoning; 57 suspension is expensive, I'd like power front disc brakes, and power steering. Now I have an old power steering unit and treadle power brake system, but they would likely have to be rebuilt and the treadle system still is not separated front and rear.

Another project on the car I have been tossing around is getting rid of the old dynaflow and tourq tube. Again very expensive to rebuild and hard to find parts for evidently. It seems many agree that they aren't a good trans and the tourqe tube doesn't work with other transmissions. Problem is, this to me sounds like a lot of work, fitment, and parts issues.

Often when I think of doing all this work and trouble so that we can enjoy the car..... the more I think of selling it and buying another car that has all this done. We really like the car though, it just needs to operate with a little less effort. I could go on explaining this but I'd probably just confuse you or dodge the questions that I haven't answered yet. So, I'll check back often and reply to any questions that are asked.

Thanks for taking time to read this if you have no opinion.

Well, I don't know which threads you've been reading but the front suspension is costly cause of the one year only ball joints. But the thing that makes mechanics THINK the ball joints are bad is actually a feature of the 57 ball joint. That the brakes need to be switched to disc is another fallacy. The drum brakes can and will lock up just as quick as disc brakes. The way to get improved brake quality is to install an anti lock system. Just how fast do you plan to drive your 57 anyways? Also that most agree the Dynaflow is unreliable. It's the exact opposite. Some have the Dynaflow rebuilt cause they just don't understand what they are experiencing. The Dynaflow and the torque tube are excellent pieces that make your 57 unique.

What I'm hearing is that you really want a modern car with an older classic look. And nothing wrong with that if it's what you really want. But the changes you propose are drastic, and in my humble opinion, unnecessary.

The changes you propose are extremely expensive. I agree with John, the Dynaflow is a very rugged and dependable transmission. They just like to leak fluid at the torque tube connection. The factory original brakes work just fine if everything is up to snuff. If you want a car that rides and handles and works like a 2013 car, then go buy one. If you want to experience the enjoyment and ride and feel and limitations of an antique car, then leave your '57 as is. And if you want both in one car, then go buy a streetrod and don't ruin the nice original that you have.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

I urge you not to "upgrade" your 57 Buick with the changes you are proposing. I have read that the 57 ball joints have more play in their design and you may not need to replace them. Others may chime in with more details. I have a 63 Buick Riviera that has the last Dynaflow and have driven it for the last 20 years with no problems except some leakage. I have found it does not leak very much if driven regularly. The Dynaflow does not shift so it feels different until you get used to it. The advantage of disc brakes is with hard usage, like going down a steep hill (mountain) and repeatedly hitting the brakes hard they resist fading. If you make the changes you are talking about the car will have a more limited appeal when it comes time to sell it.

Having owned and driven a 57 extensively, I say don't change a thing. If mechanically in good condition, the 57's are very capable well mannered road cars. Enjoy the car for what it is, if what it is isn't what you want, move on to something you would want.

Buicknewbee,

That's a good looking car! While I've never had a 57' (it is on my list though) I have had more than one man's share of 55's. I think I just bought #6. Anyway I agree with the crowd above. I had many of the same concerns you had, and threw a LOT of money out the window chasing those things, only to sell the car and buy another one all original!!! If it was a standard chebby or ford, it'd be different (maybe) but the Buicks have much less mass appeal. I drive my current runner, on the road and keep up just fine! The last original one I had was my daily driver and it rode the interstates with the best of them!

Do what you like it's your car. But....

I rebuilt my eng/tranny and drive my car without worry. It has been very dependable and has no problem keeping up on the freeway. The brakes are ok but not like a new car. That's a limitation I'm ok with. I just drive differently in my 57. I always give myself more time and space for stopping. The tranny does leak when sitting for a long period of time. But it runs nice and has never been trailered.

As you can see, I've made changes to mine. So, I'm not against it.

No I have desire for a new car guys! So just drop that idea. I come here for advice and opinion, but try to see it from my point of view. The reasons for my thinking that a front end suspension rebuild is in order is because when I tried to have it aligned two years ago, they said it couldn't be aligned because the upper and lower ball joints were shot. They showed me with the tires in the air all the slop at the joints. not just the ball joints either, the bushings throughout the joints are breaking up and sloppy. That's when I got schooled on the 57 one year only front end ball joints. I have assumed it was a bad design from the start since it was used only one year and 58 on had a better design.

Now the brake system, I'm literally standing on the brake petal to get this boat to slow down. So much so that after crossing town my foot hurts. Now my wife drove it once and she said she would never drive it again until the brakes were easier to depress. It's a no power system now. She has hardly enough weight to press the brakes down to the floor. So I gotta do something or she 'll never drive it again. Besides the brakes being hard to stop without a lot of weight on them, it's a single reservoir system. For safety sake with wife and kids it should be a double reservoir if I'm going to drive it or all brakes could go out at the same time. Am I right? If someone wants to take the car back to original I'll keep the parts. Same goes for the disc brakes. It takes much less foot pressure to push a large piston caliper on pads than it does to push two shoes out. It's not a question of shoes locking up vs discs locking up. You don't want your brakes to lock up anyway because that defeats the purpose of brakes.

As far as the trans goes, Most of what I have read has come from this forum about the trans. The trans fluid seems to always leak past the rear seal to the tourq tube. Now my car has the very same problem that has gotten worse since I purchased it. I read where one owner has replaced his seal three times and still has fluid leaking back into the tube if I remember right. I looked for it earlier so I could substansiate it, but there are just too many threads on the subject. I thought to replace the trans for the purpose of the faulty seal and to possibly retro fit a overdrive. It would be nice to switch out the rear end gears for a better gas saving set, but that doesn't appear possible with the tube design.

The reason I'm bringing this all up now is the car swap season is coming up. I thought I'd keep my eyes open for parts for whatever ideas or opinions I get.

newbee, sounds as though you had already decided. Just go for it!! It WILL be CHEAPER to repair what you have than to make the changes. Always. Whatever you do, we hope you keep us up to date.

There is another thread on here detailing essentially what you are thinking of doing.

Good luck

Ben

It is your car and you should do what ever makes you comfortable. I have several Buicks that are original drivers and enjoy driving them as they are, knowing that they have their quirks and limitations. I also grew up in the fifties and enjoy "souped up" custom cars! With this in mind, one of my '57 Specials is being transformed into a restomod with an updated suspension, '66 Buick 425 equipped with fuel injection, 700R4 transmission and new rear end. Body wise, it will be very stock in appearance. Just a little different stance and a whole bunch more GO!

Check out Dan's post's (421-6speed) in the modified/performance forums. He is doing a similar project with a '57 Super.

It's your car and your money. Go for it and enjoy the ride!!

Gary

I hauled a 1954 Airstream trailer all over the country with a stock 57 Buick , and never had a problem !!!!

425 with injectors. I want to see that. PLEASE let us in on this project.

Ben

Just curious, did you have an old car before the Buick and if you did, how did the '57 come to replace it?

Bernie

Here's my two cents worth: Having a 1957 Buick Special, and having driven it to the Buick Nationals from Detroit to Charlotte, NC in 2012 and back, and knowing in advance I was going to make this trip, here is what I did:

1. Find and buy a 1957 Buick stock PS system, if your car doesn't have it. Install it. My car had manual steering from the factory and I drove it like that for 26 years. bought and installed a 1957 Buick PS system on the car, and it handles like a dream. HUGE difference! No modifications to the car, since it was designed for the car. Make sure you get ALL the parts. (including the PS linkage on the suspension)

2. Find and buy a 1957 Buick stock PB system. Again, my car had the manual brakes and yes, you had to stand on them to get a great stop. Takes a lot of pressure to press the pedal. The PB system for the car is a wonderful addition. Just make sure you get ALL the components (vacuum tank, check valve, PB with booster). Also get new brake shoes, and have the drums professionally turned. I also replaced all the lines - SS Inline Tube - which you can buy a complete set for your car for under $200, all formed and ready to install. Use either silicone or DOT4 brake fluid as well. Again, you will be amazed at the difference it makes with the stock PB system.

3. If you are going to make it a driver, use radials, rather than bias ply tires. Since I like to show my car, I have the original design bias ply tires on it. They do track to the road and are not as forgiving as a radial tire. However, if you want to have the feel of what it was like to drive the 1957 Buick in the day, then go for the bias ply tires. It is a whole different ride.

There you go..good luck with your car and really, do what you feel like you should do. It is an extension of yourself. Above is what I did. It is all easy, bolt on stuff, all made for your car, and all information and specs are found in the Chassis Shop manual. It is also probably cheaper (to some extent) and will keep your car all original. Happy motoring and wrenching!

Buicknewbee,

That's a good looking car! While I've never had a 57' (it is on my list though) I have had more than one man's share of 55's. I think I just bought #6. Anyway I agree with the crowd above. I had many of the same concerns you had, and threw a LOT of money out the window chasing those things, only to sell the car and buy another one all original!!! If it was a standard chebby or ford, it'd be different (maybe) but the Buicks have much less mass appeal. I drive my current runner, on the road and keep up just fine! The last original one I had was my daily driver and it rode the interstates with the best of them!

Thanks! We love the car very much and love to just jump in and take the kids to the park or the occasional car show. We are always the only Buick there which is kinda nice, but we would like to see more participation from other Buick enthusiasts.

I hauled a 1954 Airstream trailer all over the country with a stock 57 Buick , and never had a problem !!!!

No Kidding? Did the trailer have electric Brakes? How about the car, Did it have power brakes?

Just curious, did you have an old car before the Buick and if you did, how did the '57 come to replace it?

Bernie

I had a 72 Chevy truck that I truly loved to drive. Not really an old car. It was a solid Arizona truck with working AC and painted in Medium Blue with a white top. I bought it about 14 years ago with only 62,000 original miles. I sold it just before we bought the Buick with 68,000 miles because we just couldn't drive it anymore. Unfortunately, we only put a total of about 250 miles on it in the four years from when my daughter was born. Two kids and two adults just can't fit into a standard cab. So I decided to sell it and get something we all could take to shows and such. I kinda regretted selling it, but it would still be sitting. So we bought the Buick shortly after that. I seen it on Craigs list and just fell in love with it. Then not too much longer after we bought the buick we bought a 48 Plymouth also. It too is a lot of fun to drive.

Here's my two cents worth: Having a 1957 Buick Special, and having driven it to the Buick Nationals from Detroit to Charlotte, NC in 2012 and back, and knowing in advance I was going to make this trip, here is what I did:

1. Find and buy a 1957 Buick stock PS system, if your car doesn't have it. Install it. My car had manual steering from the factory and I drove it like that for 26 years. bought and installed a 1957 Buick PS system on the car, and it handles like a dream. HUGE difference! No modifications to the car, since it was designed for the car. Make sure you get ALL the parts. (including the PS linkage on the suspension)

2. Find and buy a 1957 Buick stock PB system. Again, my car had the manual brakes and yes, you had to stand on them to get a great stop. Takes a lot of pressure to press the pedal. The PB system for the car is a wonderful addition. Just make sure you get ALL the components (vacuum tank, check valve, PB with booster). Also get new brake shoes, and have the drums professionally turned. I also replaced all the lines - SS Inline Tube - which you can buy a complete set for your car for under $200, all formed and ready to install. Use either silicone or DOT4 brake fluid as well. Again, you will be amazed at the difference it makes with the stock PB system.

3. If you are going to make it a driver, use radials, rather than bias ply tires. Since I like to show my car, I have the original design bias ply tires on it. They do track to the road and are not as forgiving as a radial tire. However, if you want to have the feel of what it was like to drive the 1957 Buick in the day, then go for the bias ply tires. It is a whole different ride.

There you go..good luck with your car and really, do what you feel like you should do. It is an extension of yourself. Above is what I did. It is all easy, bolt on stuff, all made for your car, and all information and specs are found in the Chassis Shop manual. It is also probably cheaper (to some extent) and will keep your car all original. Happy motoring and wrenching!

This is what I was needing to hear. As I said in my first post, I have the complete power steering system and the complete power brake booster with the single reservoir (the treadle system). I just didn't know if I should install them or look at the whole front end. I bought the parts, just after I purchased this car off someone who is a member of this group. But I just didn't know if they would preform well enough to have them rebuilt vs just buying a newer system. I still don't like the idea of only the single reservoir, but I'll give it a shot and install them after getting them back.

Does anyone know of a reputable place to rebuild the treadle system?

No I have desire for a new car guys! So just drop that idea. I come here for advice and opinion, but try to see it from my point of view. The reasons for my thinking that a front end suspension rebuild is in order is because when I tried to have it aligned two years ago, they said it couldn't be aligned because the upper and lower ball joints were shot. They showed me with the tires in the air all the slop at the joints. not just the ball joints either, the bushings throughout the joints are breaking up and sloppy. That's when I got schooled on the 57 one year only front end ball joints. I have assumed it was a bad design from the start since it was used only one year and 58 on had a better design.

Now the brake system, I'm literally standing on the brake petal to get this boat to slow down. So much so that after crossing town my foot hurts. Now my wife drove it once and she said she would never drive it again until the brakes were easier to depress. It's a no power system now. She has hardly enough weight to press the brakes down to the floor. So I gotta do something or she 'll never drive it again. Besides the brakes being hard to stop without a lot of weight on them, it's a single reservoir system. For safety sake with wife and kids it should be a double reservoir if I'm going to drive it or all brakes could go out at the same time. Am I right? If someone wants to take the car back to original I'll keep the parts. Same goes for the disc brakes. It takes much less foot pressure to push a large piston caliper on pads than it does to push two shoes out. It's not a question of shoes locking up vs discs locking up. You don't want your brakes to lock up anyway because that defeats the purpose of brakes.

As far as the trans goes, Most of what I have read has come from this forum about the trans. The trans fluid seems to always leak past the rear seal to the tourq tube. Now my car has the very same problem that has gotten worse since I purchased it. I read where one owner has replaced his seal three times and still has fluid leaking back into the tube if I remember right. I looked for it earlier so I could substansiate it, but there are just too many threads on the subject. I thought to replace the trans for the purpose of the faulty seal and to possibly retro fit a overdrive. It would be nice to switch out the rear end gears for a better gas saving set, but that doesn't appear possible with the tube design.

The reason I'm bringing this all up now is the car swap season is coming up. I thought I'd keep my eyes open for parts for whatever ideas or opinions I get.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your original post.

My 57 had power brakes and steering that were installed in 57 when the car was built. The trailer did have electric brakes.

Sorry John,

After reading my first post I can see where you may have thought the power steering and power brakes were already installed in the car. I have a problem with typing my question out in keeping up with my mind. I still chicken peck my keyboard which takes time. I'm generally thinking three sentences ahead of my typing. LOL

But I'm going to have my treadle system rebuilt or rebuild it myself (scary) and install it in the car. I have got to have at least this much done for this driving season. I have asked for help in finding a company that can rebuild it in the general forum.

Thanks for accepting my apology. It's really none of my business what others do with their posessions..I would tend to agree that the power assist steering and brakes makes for a nicer driving experience. Looks like you have some expenses with the suspension too. I wish you good luck whatever you decide.

Hello Buicknewbee;

I am working on my 1957 Century 4 door hardtop. This Century came with Power brakes . The Master Cylinder was in bad shape and I sent it to New York to a company called "Apple Hydraulics Inc." in Calverton. They charged $375.00 to rebuild the master c. They did a nice job. It is like brand new. Now I just need new shoes. But at this point it is drivable. Definitely nice having a brake pedal to pump. With todays traffic I have considered a disc brake conversion as well. I am working on the suspension too. I am just recovering from shock of the price of rebuilt ball joints and have studied the possibility of changing the A-arms to a later model in order to use cheaper b-joints. For now I filled them with grease and am thinking they are okay. I am getting ready to replace the coil springs and shocks and will investigate them further then. Keep me posted on what you decide but I think I will try and keep this Century as stock as possible. This body style is the best!! J. R.

I drove mine 75 miles yesterday.

I'm glad it's got power steering and power brakes.

I got the Dynaflow rebuilt 14 years ago and it hasn't leaked more than a few drops. The next time I check, it might be low.

But I haven't added to it, ever. The Dynaflow is a very sturdy transmission. It doesn't have much to go wrong with it. Mine works like a charm. And did even before it was rebuilt. We had it rebuilt just because it was 45 years old.

Even then it leaked just a little, just a few drops.

The problem with a hard pedal is not going to be solved with disc brakes.

It's a power vacuum booster you need.

If you're going to add a booster,

A dual master cylinder is a good idea,

Regarding the ball joints, here's this;

http://forums.aaca.org/f162/57-buick-ball-joints-296971.html

And here's another thread about ball joints;

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=242437

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=242437

About 50 years seems to be the typical cut off point between well maintained survivors and semi-restored (heavily invested) cars. This summer the late '60's will start decreasing in number at events, just as the '50's began a decline about ten years ago.

Some might remember the restored 1955 or 1956 restored chassis at the 2003 Nationals. At the time that was a major work for the vintage and it attracted quite a bit of attention.

Today the mid-60's cars are reaching their life before major repairs and refurbishing.

Dodging the price bullet of servicing a 50 year old component by re-engineering or modifying can carry it's own hidden costs in safety or saleability. In the long run, repair the component or system that lasted the first 50 years and hope you have to fix it the next time.

Bernie

About 50 years seems to be the typical cut off point between well maintained survivors and semi-restored (heavily invested) cars. This summer the late '60's will start decreasing in number at events, just as the '50's began a decline about ten years ago.

Some might remember the restored 1955 or 1956 restored chassis at the 2003 Nationals. At the time that was a major work for the vintage and it attracted quite a bit of attention.

Today the mid-60's cars are reaching their life before major repairs and refurbishing.

Dodging the price bullet of servicing a 50 or 60 year old component by re-engineering or modifying can carry it's own hidden costs in safety or saleability. In the long run, repair the component or system that lasted the first 50 years and hope you have to fix it the next time.

Bernie

Newbee........you have received a lot of good advise from the experts on these cars. I know little about these year Buicks but have some "generic" suggestions.

Automatic transmission, when you purchase a "new" car (to you), unless you have documented service records, do a compete service of the car. Transmission fluid, engine oil, brake fluid, rear end. Some of these fluids could be what was installed at the factory. If the transmission has cooling lines and you live where it gets hot in the summer, add a external transmission cooler....... HEAT kills transmissions.

Brakes. Flush the brake fluid, what you put in is not as important as getting rid of the old stuff. DOT3 will absorb 1-2% moisture per year (more if you live in a humid area) 2% water comtamination will drop the boiling point 100degrees C. You can boil fluid and think you are just having brake fade.

Check...or best yet change the brake hoses. My '39 had poor braking and it pulled.... changed the hoses and it was like a new car. I open up the old hoses and they had many cracks on the inside but the outside looked good.

Brake shoes.... you may not have a lot of choices when buying replacements for older cars, however not all friction material is created equal. New shoes and pads have codes on the edge that is a rating for the materials friction. Hard lining last longer but does not have the friction that softer material will have. A good brake shop may be able find the best friction material.

Many years back there was an SAE paper on friction material degassing...... as you apply the brakes and they heat, gasses are released and can build a cushion between the drum and shoe. You will notice that the old race cars with drum brakes had segmented friction material......this was to allow the gas to escape. You can easily modify new shoes to help with this potential problem. Cut one or two grooves (equally spaced) in the friction material. Sure you remove a small amount of material but you allow the gas to escape. I usually cut the groove about 2/3 thru the friction material, this later acts as a gage so you can determine how much the material has worn when you later inspect the shoes.

As was said earlier, it's your car, do what you want to it. IF, it were my car, AND if I decided that I wanted to 1) get rid of the Dynalflow 2) ditch the ball joints 3) ditch the torque tube 4) add disc brakes, 5) and all sorts of other stuff, you might consider doing what a friend of mine in Northern California did to his '57 Caballero Wagon. It had a 425 Nailhead, ST400 transmisson, disk brakes, p/s, p/b, and all sorts of other stuff that made it easy to maintain, reliable, and comfortable. He sat his body on a complete '79 Buick Century wagon chassis with all of it's moden accoutraments. He said it wasn't nearly as hard or expensive as reworking all of the stock stuff. He then had '57 parts that he could sell and recoup some of his expenses. I'm not advocating this, just relating experiences.

Ed

I'm not familiar with the 364 block to bell housing bolt pattern,

But it is something you need to check before trying to mate a different transmission.

Replacing the torque tube with an open driveshaft will move the thrust point from the transmission to the axle swing arms.

So new suspension must be fitted/ fabricated.

And, most likely a different axle.

You may find that the complete drive train from the engine to the axle need to be replaced

My advice is keep the 364 , Dynaflow and torque tube.

The 364 has the same bell housing diameter as the 401/425. Russ Martin sells a torque tube eliminator kit for putting an open drive shaft into a car that originally came with a torque tube. You can also put the 325 hp 401 from a '59 or '60 in the 57. The '59 has the big Wildcat engine but still retains the torque tube and accelerator pedal start. BUT you still have to do the brakes, chassis, etc. Think about doing a complete chassis swap, it's probably less headaches.

Ed