Installation of late 60's AM/FM in place of early 60's AM?

Just shopping around a bit today, I would like to have FM radio reception in my car, but I am not really a fan of how the conversions look and function.

So, I'm curious if I could use a later 60's unit and install it in place of my '63 Sonomatic. Dimensionally similar, but not having a second unit to actually try it, not sure. Not really wanting to purchase a unit without knowing that, at least physically, it will fit.

Has anyone tried this before?

I'm looking at a unit such as this:

here's the auction (http://www.ebay.com/itm/221367927841?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

There are about THREE things to be concerned with, all important.

1 -- spacing of the shafts, center to center.

2 -- contour of the instrument panel where the radio sticks through the mounting hole, which must be the same (or very similar) shape to look decent

3 -- the size of the center "rectangle".

#1 and #3 are very important as GM had radios which looked to go in the same place, but would NOT when you put them close to the instrument panel.

Back then, it was not stereo per se, but "multiplex". Some AM/FM units were "multiplex-ready" as they had an RCA plug in the outlet which sent to the multiplex "box", but unless you knew what you were looking at, they looked like a normal AM/FM unit from the front.

Many of the Delco radios, back then, were "one wire" radios which used self-grounding speakers. The front/rear faders also plugged into two little holes under the tuning shaft, which had its own wiring harness items. Multiplex radios usually had four speakers, in most applications.

In some respects, it might be better to find a quality aftermarket unit from the later 1970s or so, which had adjustable shaft spacing AND used different "adapter" units to fill in the gaps between the faceplate and the instrument panel. Many were factory-facsimile cosmetics radios or pure aftermarket brands.

In ANY case, you'll need suitable "back bracing" to keep the radio solid in the panel AND have a good chassis ground for the radio case (especially the factory radio!). Otherwise, the shaft nuts will be what locates and stabilizes the radio, which will also tend to loosen with time and miles/vibrations. ONLY thing about the aftermarket radios is that their knobs certainly do not look OEM, although you might find some GM-style knobs somewhere. The OEM shafts used a flat section to keep things indexed, whereas the aftermarkets used slotted shafts for the same function. NO interchanges, though.

FM Mono might have started in '63, with the FM multiplex starting in '64?

In the long run, it would be best to find the radio which will directly fit your vehicle, if such a thing exists. There are some of the "hidden audio" radios for GM products which have fully-modern electronics, amps, and inputs for iPods and such . . . all hidden behind a correct reproduction factory faceplate. About $500.00 for the unit itself, less speakers and such. I have seen them advertised for Chevelles, but probably not for Buicks just yet (unless it's a '70 or so model Skylark), I suspect.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

If you want to pull your radio and compare some measurements, let me know. I have one of those exact AM/FM radios that you are looking at on my shelf.

There are about THREE things to be concerned with, all important.

1 -- spacing of the shafts, center to center.

2 -- contour of the instrument panel where the radio sticks through the mounting hole, which must be the same (or very similar) shape to look decent

3 -- the size of the center "rectangle".

#1 and #3 are very important as GM had radios which looked to go in the same place, but would NOT when you put them close to the instrument panel.

Yes. Very aware of this, I actually just did a "swap" of a late 80's K10 radio into a '72 - with some trimming it fit, but had to remove the ash tray. It'll work for now, since I had it and my other radio died!

FM Mono might have started in '63, with the FM multiplex starting in '64?

In the long run, it would be best to find the radio which will directly fit your vehicle, if such a thing exists. There are some of the "hidden audio" radios for GM products which have fully-modern electronics, amps, and inputs for iPods and such . . . all hidden behind a correct reproduction factory faceplate. About $500.00 for the unit itself, less speakers and such. I have seen them advertised for Chevelles, but probably not for Buicks just yet (unless it's a '70 or so model Skylark), I suspect.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

As far as I can tell, AM/FM was in fact available in '63 in a mono two speaker configuration, but I've yet to find one as such. I've seen a couple '64 units, all very pricey.

I'm more interested in having the AM/FM and the stock look - that is, BUICK spelled out on the push buttons. The knobs I expect will interchange. I'd be happy to keep my single dash speaker, or if I were lucky enough to find a two speaker unit, install the center speaker in my rear seat.

If you want to pull your radio and compare some measurements, let me know. I have one of those exact AM/FM radios that you are looking at on my shelf.

I will take you up on that this weekend, I think. I appreciate the offer!

Sure thing. I'll be ready

There is another option... I did it for my car quite a few years ago. There may be even more modern choices nowadays.

It wasn't hard to find an exact replacement AM-only radio in very good condition, for an absolute pittance (who wants AM radios?) Then I sent the replacement out to a shop somewhere in California (keeping my car's original "working" radio, just in case the experiment was a failure.) It cost a princely sum - several hundred dollars as I recall - to have the shop replace the audio "works" with AM-FM stereo, and add an auxiliary input which is reached from inside the glove box, to connect the speaker jack from a walkman, iPod, portable XM radio or whatever. When it came back, I installed the "new radio" as a direct replacement for the original. No additional antenna is needed for regular type radio...it hooks right up to the factory mast with the factory connector.

My dash looks just like it has an original radio. That's because it does. All the pushbuttons and tuning, tone and volume controls "do their original thing" if anybody checks. The radio's exterior is not altered at all. The only clue that anything has been changed is a tiny 3-color LED inserted in the radio dial, to tell you what function you are using, but it's only visible when the radio is actually on. Finally, I added 2 removable small "bookshelf" type speakers under the front seat, so they can be pulled out for shows.

The downside is that the sound is not as strong as you get from a professional radio/speaker installation. I don't stand a chance of drowning out one of those buzzy little foreign cars (you know, the ones with the noisy mufflers, and huge speakers which take up the entire trunk) while they're bass-thumping away next to me at a stoplight. But, with one speaker on each side of the interior, there is decent stereo separation and you can hear your programming, even with windows down.

Yes, it works as intended. We're satisfied. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, except that if I were doing it nowadays, I'd see if they could add a USB port...

Hope this helps...

Courtney

James,

I have an AM-FM stereo unit out of a 1970 full-size Buick. I would be willing to sell it for less money than the ebay auction you referenced if this will work for you.

Thank you and good luck.

Jim

Hi there-I have some of the 'vintage' AM-FM and AM-FM stereo radios in 60's Buicks. IMO-those early Delcos were'nt all that super duper in a number of ways. I'd probably do the modern 'guts' in my old chassis-good luck. Dan Mpls. Mn.

raido measurement post 1.pdf

James, I took some pictures and measurements today and prepared the attached PDF. I hope it opens and is clear, but feel free to ask for any other measurements or details you need.

That's one of the most detailed and informative descriptions I have seen!!

Excellent job John.

Thanks for your kind words Brian. Hope all is well in your part of the universe.

The radios for the '63/'64/'65 models have two bolt holes in the bottom where they are bolted to the chassis (at least in my '63 and '64 Rivieras.)

That's one of the most detailed and informative descriptions I have seen!!

Excellent job John.

I agree. Thanks John!

I have taken some dimension off my radio, but I'm having some computer related issues right now so I probably won't get the info posted until Monday. Based on the information I have, it looks like everything is a good match except for the size of the chrome bead which protrudes through the dash - and it's close. I did not check the size of the opening in the dash, I will do that tonight.

RivNut is correct - in my car, there is actually a bracket on the bottom of the radio which offsets it 5/8" up from the mounting bracket in the dash. I suspect the dash opening was sized for a Wonderbar, as the Sonomatic is lost in there! I have at least 2" of extra room on either side, though clearance above is minimal

You're very welcome. I just looked at the bottom of this 69 radio. The bottom cover is removeable, and possibly replaceable with the bottom to your radio.

James,

I have an AM-FM stereo unit out of a 1970 full-size Buick. I would be willing to sell it for less money than the ebay auction you referenced if this will work for you.

Thank you and good luck.

Jim

Jim,

PM sent. This community is a wonderful thing

I've attached a sketch of the dimensions I was able to take on my radio - I will keep you all posted as this idea progresses. I suspect the biggest issue may turn out to be the depth of the chrome face housing.

I'm interested to see how this works out. Also regarding jj5794's offer above, Note that for the 68/69 "stereo" radio, there is a second external amplifier which is attached to the top of the unit and directly wired into the base unit. It may have changed for 1970.

Well, I've now got a radio enroute to me. It's a '69 model year from an Electra, and not stereo, but is 2 speaker mono. I will add the rear seat speaker to my car.

John, you were correct, the multiplex amplifier is connected directly to the base unit in 1970 as well - for full size cars. Also, some more research on my part discovered that the radio I had previously been looking at (ebay link above), being from a Skylark, has a slightly different mounting dimension. The full-size cars' face plate sits slightly closer to the base of the radio, which works better in my application.

Oh man, this is getting good! I had no idea there was a different face plate for the full sized cars!

Photos and additional info to come later when I actually get out to the garage, but initial observations:

1. This radio carries a PN 94BFP1, for reference.

2. Shaft centers are the same, 6 1/4"

3. Shaft lengths are the same, and the early style knobs fit (some slight modification is required to the driver's side inner knob, the older radios had two keys on the inner knob, this one has only one.

4. Overall dimensions are near identical of the case

5. Face is the same height and relative location on the case; however, is approximately 3/16" narrower than the '63 Sonomatic

I also have a correct '63 fader knob here, for the rear speaker. Does fit, but on the later radios the fader is internally mounted and interfaces with the knob differently. Not sure yet how I will deal with that.

This was one of those projects where I got into it and forgot to take some of the pictures I meant to, but here's the rundown.

No, this is not a direct swap.

The mounting bracket for the '63 dash requires two holes to be drilled in the radio bottom cover. There are conveniently reliefs in the tuning mechanism right where they need to go, so it interferes with nothing internal. Quick and easy to do, looks like the factory did it. I did have to reverse the bracket to clear the internals (it is asymmetric, lengthwise). I had marked it in the identical location as the original radio, and you can see how the end position puts it about 1/2" to the passenger's side.

Buick also gave me generous sized holes in the radio support, so there is a little leeway here.

The knobs are a mixed bag. The passenger's side installs fine, either the dummy knob or the fader assembly. The driver's side, the key way is slightly different on the tone knob ('63 Knob on the right)

I had a spare '63 knob here I modified to fit, however, that was a little messy and I'm not 100% satisfied with the function, so I may look into modifying the keyway on the radio to take the original knob, instead.

Here's the major change. The faceplate opening in the car is the same height, but is both too wide and too narrow at the same time. In order to properly set the height of the knobs, I had to install a spacer behind the face plate (one 1/2" washer on each side, about 1/16" thickness). The overall dimensions of the chrome crown protrusion on the '69 radio is the same height, but approximately 1/4" narrower than the '63 Sonomatic. With the knob heights set correctly, the side covers of the flip-dial mechanism protrude through the dash opening. This required a trim of about 1/8" on either side of the face plate.

The flash actually makes it look a lot worse than it appears in person, because there is not normally so much light shining into the dash.

What I will do to fix this is trim up a small "bezel" of sorts, to cover up the gap. I'll probably make it from aluminum and paint it black, after mounting to the face plate.

Now, money shots!

The radio does seem to play pretty well, but my original speaker sounds TERRIBLE! I will have to get a replacement.

Bottom line: If you're not afraid of a little trimming, it will fit. It looks very much like it belongs there. I may swap the B-U-I-C-K buttons from my '63 radio, as the styling is *slightly* different, and frankly my buttons are nicer, but that's a very minor quibble.

Now I just need to find the correct fader harness so I can hook up the original fader knob and add a rear speaker. There is no way to use the later style knobs with this face plate, it is just too deep.

And yes, my face plate had broken mounting tabs to begin with so I was not very concerned about applying a little dremel

Very Nice !!!

Funny you should make a comment about the speakers. I recently had some work done on the Corvette and we got on the subject of radio reception / quality. The person that I was talking to said that the best improvement for the sound fidelity of an old radio is to not replace the radio, but to replace the speakers. I replaced all of the speakers and he was right.