1952 buick mustache-need one, but not at this price!

Not to mention one of the end extensions is cracked. The pot metal can be TIG welded and chrome plated - if one has all the pieces. All I've ever seen, the broken piece is missing. Hard to come by parts. But I agree, price is sky high...

that one is split down the middle it looks like, mine is one piece except the ends

I have a spare that need a cracked fixed

email me if you want some pictures

ghildebrand@wi.rr.com

Greg

..... how does one tig weld pot metal that vaporizes at around 750* F and the shielded arc of a tig is much hotter than that? True Pot metal such as this piece is really a "catch basin" composite metal made up essentially of differing composite and density heat point metals blended into literally a pot and thus the name pot metal. This blending process lowers the overall vaporization point of the final pot.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Buick-front-upper-grille-part-/321299740383?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acef4f6df&vxp=mtr

I might have a 51 off a roadmaster needs replating

skyking227@ me.com l

give me a few days to look and get some photos & price

you have any extra 51,52 parts

Felix

Thanks guys. I would need one that fits a super with no cracks. Have the 2 extensions, just need the bar itself. Felix- what parts do you need?

I will look but saw no cracks. I think it will fit a super. We have a snowstorm coming need a few

Need Chrome vents that hold the glass 4 door 70 Series

On a Roadmaster 4 Door in between the doors is 3 small chrome parts

6 total

Thanks Felix. I don't have any of those parts. Snow expected here too, time to hunker down (again)

I have a plater that I took 3 of these guys (51-52 upper grille bars) to recently, all cracked in various places.

He not only did a gorgeous job of replating them, but also uses an experienced "pot metal welder"!!

They came out, all three, perfect!!

Sorry guys, it is southern California...so no worries about the snow & bitter cold mentioned above, and probably too far away for you guys to use this plater!!

Just letting you know...

We have all we need here, including warmth!!

By the way, an experienced "pot metal welder" is worth his...and his families, weight in gold!!

Cheers, Mike

Hope you guys find a good bar candidate. Oh, just for the record - You can't really "weld" pot metal. It is physically impossible and the principles dictating that were explained above. You can however heat catalyze bond pot metal substrates together however and this is what your "pot metal welder" did and there is a process out there for that and a wizard selling the process to do just that out there as well on his web site. This process is actually just better for filling voids then to adjoin two pieces back together. But with that said, there is always the real chance the bonding substrates will shear due to lateral and twisting forces and/or expansion / contraction forces as this heat set bond method/process is not a true weld in the true sense of the word as a true weld joint becomes one with the metal substrate.

Found my mustache pitted complete with ends intact still had rubber bumpers of low milage car nice but center small crack

I missed. It had a nice board attached to prevent bending.

I can email photos, tough to post for me

Thanks Felix, but I'll have to pass. Thanks for checking though.

I do fully realize that pot metal cannot be welded, but for the sake of argument, it can be repaired.

I use the term "welded" to denote this, since most folks understand the term.

After it deals with metals, usually...I am into wood...Woodies that is...no welding there!!

The process of repairing pot metal is actually quite horrendous.

I know since I spent many hours...days...weeks trying it myself!!

At one point, the pot metal starts to get a nice "buttery" feel...next thing you know it is dripping on the floor!!

After trying it for more time than I would care to mention, with paltry results, I have the most admiration for anybody that is accomplished in this feat. Mike

Im in San Bernardino county, were is this plater you speak of?

Im in San Bernardino county, were is this plater you speak of?

I am reluctant to send you the info, simply because I do not know you.

I have referred folks in the past to some of my connections, with bad results, so please bear with me.

I am in my late 60's, so I have much experience, some good, some not so good.

I enjoy getting these old Buicks up & running, for me or for others, so my motivation is to help as much as possible.

Feel free to call me at 661 766 9141, we can work this out.

I am just a few hours drive from you, so is the plater, but he is a good friend.

I hope you understand, Mike 661 766 9141, anytime.

PS: Hope there aren't any fires near you!! Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Buick-front-upper-grille-part-/321299740383?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acef4f6df&vxp=mtr

I have 1 in decent ends good & small center crack $850 plus shipping in Boston, give me an email and I can send photos,

I need a rearend 51 Roadmaster the mustache is off a 51 Roady. I do not need to sell Also NOS Fenders Front

rest is used Rear fenders doors

Felix

If these continue at this price I'm just going to go with the Oldsmobile. Might be better off buying a project with a decent grill.

The biggest problem with getting these plated is the length.

The ends are no problem, but the center is about 5 feet long, and usually cracked.

To work these, first they are cumbersome to polish, a step required several times through the process.

Each time they are dipped in a tank, (copper, nickle, chrome..at least 3 times, they may have to repeat a step) they take up a lot of room = pricey!!

Only so much will fit in the tanks, and if overcrowded, they turn out bad, so not much in the way of shortcuts.

Bottom line is they are pricey to plate, even with a great core.

Add in a rough core, it may not even make.

I have noticed some rust marks on them where the hood meets the fenders.

Pot metal doesn't rust, so the rust is from the steel, but the rust makes the pot metal rot.

Or perhaps, what made the rust stains contributes to the rotting of the pot metal.

Two of the three I had plated had those rust marks, and the plater wouldn't even attempt them until he ground the marks away, thereby removing the surface rot, and was satisfied they would make.

Part of the problem is many pot metal parts are not very thick, and they rot from both sides--inside & outside.

I used to prep my own pot metal parts, and as I dressed them down, removing pits, the pits would get smaller.

But, sometimes as they got smaller, others would appear, and with subsequent dressing, got larger!

They were coming through from the backside!

So I understand this process, and my fingers (and toes!) were crossed big time when I left those three with him!!

But they all turned out show quality, much to my delight, Mike

Look guys, Mike's Woodie is right. You can fix the cracks. But please understand, I was not just pissing on someone's shoe here about this, but pointing out the technical point of the beast. If you can't find a good one then why not go out and buy a cracked one and even one broken into pieces. But understand about the repair. You can buy the heat activated bonding putty which I believe is a privately held propriety compounded epoxy/urethane/metal blend of sorts. But Mike is right, the heat melt to vaporization point for pot metal is almost instantaneous. If one could make a cast template and remelt the pot metal then this would be the ideal solution. One challenge that someone could take on some time just for kicks.

But with that said, the problem with joining two pieces of anything together again, like in this case pot metal, you need something that will withstand the lateral shear loads which occur along the axis of anything coming together. In addition, there will be forces such as torsional strains ( twisting ) and expansion and contractional movements ( heat & cold ) that will put various amounts of strain right at and all along the "joint" site or sites. Almost without exception, the compound used to adjoin the two pieces ( substrates ) back together again will have a different physical structural dynamic than that of the substrate pieces being reunited once again. This is the problem. Because all the above mentioned forces will allow various degrees of movement but the degree of movements allowed by the adjoining compounds will either be greater or less than that of the adjoining substrates. The repair will look good coming out of the box but once exposed in time to the elements and the forces mentioned, separation ( cracking ) will occur once again. To mediate this from happening prematurely, a backing plate or stich plate or scab of the same material being adjoined, in this case pot metal should be used. So when using the compound material, apply this backing scab to the back surface while at the same time affixing the two pieces together at the joint. Then use the fill compound to close any cratering and buildup along the joint. Now sand and buff. This approach will help to assure some form of structural integrity along the joint line area.

Oh, 2 other major points to remember is in making sure there is no object that will make contact onto the bar once reinstalled onto the car like the hood or hood bumper stops or chrome or latch etc Anything. The other is not tighten down the securing nuts holding the chrome pot metal bar down to little more than finger tight plus just a tad more 1/4 inch more movement on the head with a socket or wrench. You can test this applied tighten torque amount by if properly torqued, take the sock and try and reverse the fastening head of the bolt/nut as the case may be. It should just begin to turn with very little initial resistance. Remember, the fastening flanges need to be able to float for the need "expansion and contraction" that is put upon this piece by nature and by heat/cold. in addition, one could also insulate the contact of the pot metal ear to the shroud with a thin rubber fender washer at the mating surface and again at the washer nut end by putting the rubber washer first against the pot metal ear then the metal flat washer then the nut.

q e d

Maybe I am too simplistic or live in a too technically capable are. Couldn't a non-ferrous foundry cast a new one from a one-off mold? When I was a lot younger we had some small induction furnaces for brass and aluminum for rail road switch boxes. It wasn't hard to make a belt buckle if you wanted one.

Out in the other room we had the big Bessemer furnace. I remember changing the roof on that between pours. To keep the foundry busy the marketing guys got us some short runs of International truck axles and odd jobs to run. If I needed one I would be shopping for a friendly shop.

Back around 1990, some of you might remember Joe Galina from the Rochester area. He was selling unfinished brass horn bars. He borrowed my original and had a mold made for casting the repops.

Bernie

Yes some good points Bernie. Pot metal is just that. A pot of various mid to low melting point metals. Upon mixing and melting the vapor point is lowered. A sand casting should be done on these bars and this will eventually need to be done because it has already got to the point where finding decent bars for our various year Buicks is getting rare at best. This would make a great How To Do Article.

Well, to throw my 5 eggs in...

Pot metal got its name from being the pot that various reclaimed scraps of excess metal from tha casting process were thrown into.

The originals were zinc castings that needed to be pure.

But with castings there is a lot of waste, extra pieces that were necessary for manufacture, but mostly band sawed off after.

These included risers & runners to allow the metal to flow through the mold without any air pockets, etc., an engineering feat in itself, but nonetheless, waste after the piece is made.

Often these were military, or high quality manufacturing production parts making this excess scrap, needing to be made of virgin alloys.

However, their scrap extra parts were thrown into a POT, making pot metal, strife with many contaminants that make it less than virgin.

So this stuff couldn't be reused for the virgin needing parts, but it could be used for decortive car parts...they don't need to be virgins!!

As long as chrome plating would stick, all is OK!

So we are left with old pot metal to restore, with varying makeup.

After all when the stuff was molded or cast there was more slag, or unneeded stuff sawed off.

It also got thrown into the POT again, for the next lot!!

And so on, and so on, each time with more contaminants.

Probably other metals were thrown in too, cannot waste anything, you know!!

So nowadays, it is not easy to repair this stuff because the initial makeup varies tremendously.

Every time it got reused, it had more contaminants...

I tried heating up old pot metal, with the idea that any metals will melt at some degree, and if one adds something similar, it will flow together, as in a weld.

I found there is a very small difference between the pot metal softening like butter (the adding point) to it dripping like melted butter (like wasted).

After acquiring the feel to heat it stopping before it drips away, I tried adding some similar metal.

The metal I added was a 1/8" diameter rod that I had bought at the Pomona swap meet that was advertised as a rod that would "weld" two aluminum beer cans together, along with a demonstration of the same.

After speaking to the illustrious performer, he conceded it was more like a solder joint than a weld on the aluminum cans.

But he described it to where it sounded like it may work for pot metal, in my sorry mind!

So I bought a few, and it did work, melting and blending into the original pot metal, after getting the temp right.

I think he was selling virgin pot metal sticks, which would rejoin their contaminated ancestors since they were virgin.

But it was really tricky to make a good repair, it takes very much practice.

The good part is that it will take chrome plating well.

Or if there are any flaws in the repair, the chrome will highlight them!!

I think there would be a problem here if some "putty" was used, as far as chrome plating working properly.

And I have found the parts done years ago with this "welding" process hold up over at least 15 years with my immediate knowledge, perhaps more.

Time will tell.

My repairs were done about 15 years ago, so that is my experience, and we have many temperature changes here, only not much rain!!

To me, this is as close as one can get to "welding" pot metal. Mike

If one was to invest in remaking old cast Buick parts, I would recommend doing it in brass, not pot metal, or anything else.

Brass takes chroming easily, is soft, easy to work, and the chromed parts hold up over time way better than any other metals.

Just my opinion & experience.

Only exception is stainless, but only if the correct alloy.

Extremely harder metal, due to the nickle, but only needs polishing to be gorgeous!!

I pointed out brass and that would be the choice in almost any case of reproduction. A foundry is not Mrs. Murphy's chowder kitchen. In the early '70's I helped run a three electrode Bessemer smelting furnace. Each pour cycle was about 2000-3000 pounds starting with engine blocks, some scrap, and pig iron. Once liquified we had a dipping cup with a 20" handle for sampling. Each sample was analyzed and a few pounds of carbon, nickle, or suitable alloy were added. Even though we worked with a ton or more the accuracy was high.

Sand for casting was specially mixed in a muller and fed to the copes by gravity, slingers, and hand packers. Trimming waste was kept low.Shaker grates and a big Wheel-A-Brator shot blaster cleaned stuff up so just a little grinding made the parts ready for machining. We even had molds to cast our own replacement parts for high wear items. On single run jobs a grille bar could be fabricated and chromed for under $4,000 I would expect. Too bad they all aren't wagons and Roadmaster converts.

Bernie

Question, I f I were to cast a few of these mustache pieces in bronze, how many do you think our hobby could consume? There is a foundry nearby that probably could do the work. The mustache on my '51 Roadmaster is not perfect and I am thinking that it may serve me better to make a new one and have it plated than to risk sending mine out for repair and plating and then not have one for a pattern. I have been following this thread and surmise that the real fix is to remake these parts and make them sturdier than Mr. Buick did. Just a thought, as when making a mold then several duplicates may serve the hobby well?? on the last parts I had remade from original the Buick part numbers even came through on the new castings. Brad30

Think about making 2 castings and plating one for your car. If you can get a deal on plating two, plate both. There is a chrome shop in Syracuse I have never used. The owner seems friendly enough to work with.

Keep the mold and make one off as you sell the finished spare. Then the buyer sees the finished product and they are assured to be happy. Try to keep one on your car and one spare for sale. As you get better at making them be sure the best one you ever made is on your car.

Bernie

Question, I f I were to cast a few of these mustache pieces in bronze, how many do you think our hobby could consume? There is a foundry nearby that probably could do the work. The mustache on my '51 Roadmaster is not perfect and I am thinking that it may serve me better to make a new one and have it plated than to risk sending mine out for repair and plating and then not have one for a pattern. I have been following this thread and surmise that the real fix is to remake these parts and make them sturdier than Mr. Buick did. Just a thought, as when making a mold then several duplicates may serve the hobby well?? on the last parts I had remade from original the Buick part numbers even came through on the new castings. Brad30

Brad,

I got really excited when I first read this...

Then, I got real!!

Bronze would be a great improvement over pot metal, and any offerings would probably stand up forever now that our Buicks are not used for everyday mundane things, that they were subjected to when new.

They are now showed off, as opposed to driven to the local store for shopping, or a getaway cars, or whatever...

But, even a great bronze replica still needs to be chrome plated, which is the kicker!

I think, even if you were to get many cast, presumably to lower the cost, it would take much time & effort to recoup your investment, which may be a lot.

Getting them chromed will still be costly, due to the length.

You may be getting very great quality parts, but the average buyer doesn't know this, and it is hard to get that across without a face to face conversation.

And our precious internet doesn't present this particular forum!!

But there is another aspect: What if you were to get some chromed?

Perhaps someone wanted a finished product...and the list just goes on & on!!!

Just be grateful you have a local foundry that can replicate the stuff you need, most of us don't have that pleasure.

And, Kudos to you for even offering their service, on your back.

By the way, my 1951 Super original repaired and chromed bar has stayed in gorgeous shape for two years, though never being outside much, but has endured many hood openings & closings!

Although, as I look at it, it is quite dusty at this time!! (OK, it is almost summer, and our local farmers make sure the dust level is extreme, whenever possible...OK, they produce our food, so they can do no bad!!)

I go with the punches, and trust not too many...I am an oldster with too many experiences, some good, some not so good, but always learning.

But I stil love life, and especially Woodie Wagons!

Go for it if you can handle it, Mike

This is not the material for a business case and should be looked at selfishly. How much do you want the grille bar the other guys don't have. On a much smaller scale, I have a reproduction of the 1960 fan warning label on my '60 Buick. I had a few made and stashed away for spares if mine gets dirty or damaged. They were expensive for what they are, but surely a losing proposition as an item for market. And if I did happen to make a profit on them 40-50% of the profit would have to go for taxes.

I think the grille bar can be made for $3000 to $4000 depending on cooperation. If I had a convertible or wagon, maybe a hardtop, of high quality I would spend it. Being a key feature the percentage of the total cost would be there even to the pragmatist. It is not the part. It is the whole end product.

Bernie

Well. as long as you cast it out of bronze, the copper plating can be omitted, since bronze has enough copper in it.

Going straight to nickle plating would save some bucks.

But if your casting has flaws, copper plating will fill them in, raising the price.

I think the finished product would last much longer than a pot metal one.

And it would look strictly like an original one, to boot! Mike

I was polishing the grille of my '60 over the weekend, getting the bugs off (AACA meet in Amherst in a few days!) and I was considering what I would do if that casting was as hard to get as the mustaches. I think a brass one could be cast in sections and brazed together. As our cars age more of these options will have to be addressed.

Well, the bank opens in a few minutes. I'll make a quick stop and then off to pick up a 20 CFM air compressor. I bought a new bumper cover for my Impala and took it to a "professional" shop for a coat of black paint. Like to take a guess at why I'm buying a big air compressor?

Bernie

Bernie: Make sure to do the math making sure it is a true 20 CFM unit, cause now a days, they tell you anything to sell a compressor. A continuous 2-stage 20 CFM compressor would be maxing out a true 5 hp - 50 amp outlet motor. Hope your not thinking about sand blasting.

I went through a phase, where I sandblasted my parts...horrible task, if done right, even if done wrong!

Since then, I found an outfit that does it specially, and reasonably, with good experience, and I will never do it myself again.

I remember being bundled up with all my parts covered, and sweating bullets, most sweat dripping over my eyes, so that I cannot see what I am trying to do!!

So I don't envy you guys for a second!!

I took my car trailer there, since it had remnants of 6 previous paint jobs, all showing through at once, everywhere.

Hey it is a good one, but still 30 years old!!

They blasted all the old paint off, primed it & painted it red...bright red, no less!!

All for the paltry sum of $500!

And, now the diamond plate has actually got the proper texture!!

They even removed the wheels and did the fenders underneath, and the wheels, both sides, something I was not expecting

The downside is, I am reluctant to use it since!! But I did need a break from it, so all is good!!

I have taken Buick Woodie frames, Buick Woodie bodies, and many miscellaneous parts there, with consistent great results.

And no sweat off my brows, thankfully!!

Well, sometimes the drive there is tiring!! LOL No, not ever!! Mike

I'm good:

Bernie

Hey Bernie, your last post, the picture never showed up here, but I knew you are good anyways!! Mike

Hey Bernie, your last post, the picture never showed up here, but I knew you are good anyways!! Mike[/quote

Showed on mine.

Ben

Ben,

I am glad it showed for you. That is an example of the kind of things I do now that the stroke and heart attack are 2 years behind. I hope it brightens up your day and gives you ideas to daydream about the future.

Everything I do now seems better than before. I weight less, exercise more, and eat better. Six months ago my cardiologist and I discussed longevity and we figured another 50 years would not be unreasonable. My GP concurred.

Looking into the future came down to one major conclusion. I need a bigger garage. You probably will, too!

Bernie

Thanks ,Bernie

A shop is like money- never enough.

I am not sure about 50 more, but looking for at least 20!! I have lost a little weight, but more to go.

Ben

Good for you Bernie way to go. But just saying, a true 5 horse power motor pulls 28 amps at FLA and 23 at cruise mode. In comparison a 3 hp motor pulls around 19 FLA and 13 at cruise mode. The true 5 hp motor requires a 60 amp fuse at the box due to startup draw and a minimal 50 amp outlet. A lot of the advertised numbers are sighting peak horsepower modes and not true hp nominal output modes since there is no stead fast requirements once again in the industry for requiring reporting the true output of the motor mounted to the rig. Most electrical providers in states require notifying them if you are installing a true 7 horse power single phase motor in a residential environment.

Really lucked out-got one for $65 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251581573281?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Really lucked out-got one for $65 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251581573281?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Hey, Dave, I don't know how this one slipped through my fingers, since I spend a lot of time checking eBay.

But it did!! LOL

You got a deal, trust me!!

But I think you already knew as much!!

I took 3 of them to a plater I trust, recently, and before he would take on the project of making them show quality...

He mentioned that the areas where the hood and fender meet, on each side are prone to "pot metal rot".

I had never heard of that before, but he proceeded to grind the horribly rough pot metal down on these areas,

Along with the rust stains there, and I was elated to hear his words..."They will make!!"

And make they did, but just as a precaution, I wanted to warn you.

Years ago, I worked with pot metal, restoring chrome parts, and it is not easy, to say the least.

I would start with a pitted part, get the plating all stripped off, then start the grinding & polishing operation.

But, if the part had deep pits, then I had to grind down past them, all the while trying to keep the shape right.

Sometimes, as the pits grew smaller, other pits, from the backside would start to show up...initially small.

But as I worked it, the backside pits grew larger!!

OK, so the front side pits go deeper and surpass the depth of the backside pits...junk!!!!!

Hopefully, your find will turn out fine, just be aware of the problems with pot metal.

I added a pic of my 1951 Buick Woodie, with one of the 3 fitted, and as I look at it now, it is gorgeous!!

Hope yours turns out as well, Mike