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What happened to the Marmons?


ricosan

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Hey Gals and Guys,

I've been a member of the Marmon Club for a couple of months now and an owner for less. Marmon information is hard to come by but I've tried to devour any and all information I can find. The answer to this question has eluded me. I've asked a few club members but no one has an answer.

My question: As there are 300 to 500 Marmons known to stillbe in existence, what happened to the other 249500? That's a awful lot of cars to disappear. Other marques seem to have fared much better. Were the Marmons melted down during WWII?

ricosan:)

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A couple of thoughts.

Yes, that's a 0.2% survival rate, which is fairly low.

Why are some cars such low survival rates, and some cars (Cord 810 and 812, for example) such high survival rates?

-cost of repairs after a number of years.......at some point, cost of repairs to an automobile would exceed the value of the car, and it might be scrapped....take a 1931 Marmon, and by the end of the '30's it was probably expensive to fix, and no one wanted a used one

-very good cars get used up, mediocre and poor cars get garaged.......I've been fascinated by the survival rate of the 1909-10 Hupmobile Model 20 versus the 1909-10 Hudson Model 20. Bot cars were comparable in production numbers. The Hupp was a nice little car, but only two speeds forward and not robust. The Hudson had a larger gearbox with three speeds, and was slightly more robust. There are maybe 20 to 30 Hudsons left, while there are HUNDREDS of Hupmobiles. Were Hupps just parked in a garage and forgotten, while the wheels were driven off the Hudsons and then scrapped?

-uniqueness of design.....the late 30's Cords have a survival rate that is over 50% (rough numbers 2500 built, 1500 or so survive), from day one I think people knew they were different and special, and it was rare for one to be scrapped

-the random universe.....some cars just made it, some didn't....

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What is funny is the V16 represented a fraction of total production but a very large amount of the surviving cars. Did you by the 32 Convertible Coupe? I really like that car and thought it was reasonably priced as a full Classic Conv coupe. I have a friend who's grandfather was Thomas J Litle Marmon's Chief engineer in the late 1920s. If anyone ever stumbles on any info about him it would be appreciated.

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Trimacar,

All good points. Expense of repairs makes sense. Even today parts are readily available for fords and Chevrolets and cheap too. I need an exhaust manifold for my Marmon but can't find it anywhere at any cost. The Marmon company going out of business probably helped to hasten the deaths of less spectacular models in the lineup and would explain the survival of the Sixteens.

Alsancle, Thanks, yes I bought this Marmon 8-125. She is a beauty but needs lots of TLC. The engine is solid and doesn't smoke but the drivetrain may need some work. Hard to tell until I get the manifold problem worked out.

ricosan:)

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post-97329-143142335881_thumb.jpg

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ricosan,

Actually there are six hundred and a few odd Marmons left. If you look at the production numbers, there is a bump from 1927 to the end in 1933. A lot of these cars were the smaller and less expensive cars like the Roosevelt and little Marmon that tended to not be saved like the fancier ones. The sixteens are the most common with seventy something remaining. I don't believe your number of Marmons built is correct. The number I have from the Marmon Heritage book is 110000 total. This gives a survival rate of about .6%. Do you have a copy of the Marmon Heritage book? They are kind of expensive but are well worth having.

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Guest kaycee

I doubt that 600+ Marmons are still around. The club lists about 300 owners, and I've asked both the vice president and president if any '27 Little 8 2door sedans ( like mine) are listed,and all I've received from them is : We have 2dr collapsble coupes and speedsters in the club. I own a 2 dr. Sedan ( a "plain Jane" body style, But a 2 dr. SEDAN is not a coupe or roadster! I agree as far as a Marmon Heritage book , I've had mine since they were first available and it's a valueble resource, and also try to buy any old brochures and magazine ads on your car. I have probably 200 pieces of literature and they're invaluable for maintenance and restoration. You may find a GOOD welder to repair your manifold or if someone on this site or a member of the Marmon Club can help. I wish I had a manifold for you, but all my extra parts and a parts car are for my '27.You have a beautiful car so keep looking!

kaycee

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I was at the CCCA Museum at the Gilmore Car Museum campus last summer and I remember a placard in front of a Marmon saying there were only 250 remaining cars. Maybe that's old info. I read a placard for a Peerless at a museum in California claiming only 35 of those cars survive.

I keep the spreadsheet for the Peerless Motor Car Club called Known Peerless Automobiles In Existence. Out of 107,000 built, 341 are currently thought to survive and are listed on KPAIE. The kicker is that no one but God knows how many are truly out there. Not the CIA, FBI, or NSA. Maybe LexisNexis would have some data. I learned about an unknown Peerless yesterday....but it was just unknown to me. There might be another 100 out there I'm unaware of.

----Jeff

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)
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I used to fly coast to coast every other week. I'd look down at all that land, which took 5 hours to cross at 500 miles per hour, and think how many sheds and garages were down there....

It's a big country, and there are still a lot of early cars to be "found"..... So as you say it's hard to put a survivor number on most car makes....

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Kaycee,

Right now there are a little over 670 Marmons in the current registry. Some of these are incomplete cars but at the same time, we are discovering more every year. The club has only tried to keep track of all Marmons, whether or not they were owned by members of the club since 2009. All Marmons are not owned by members of the club. Ricosan. Have you asked Bill Jaaquiery about an exhaust manifold? I am not sure whether those from big eights and model 88 are the same or not. Years ago the club turned over all their literature to the AACA library so that is where to go if you need information.

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Marmons were wonderful cars but expensive, and expensive to repair. In the depression thousands of cars were scrapped because nobody wanted them, even though there was little or nothing wrong with them. And of course during WW2 there were government sponsored scrap drives and people were forced to junk cars they were not using. In all this, the Marmons were very valuable as scrap because they contained so much aluminum.

Meanwhile Model As were kept on the road, or set aside at the junk yards because they knew someone would be along to buy them or at least buy parts off them. The Marmons they scrapped right away.

Classic car collecting didn't get going until the fifties and even then, unless you had a Packard, Duesenberg, or Rolls Royce nobody was interested. By the time anybody thought about Marmons they were long gone.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Guest kaycee

I agree Rusty.

During the great depression a"ton of makes" went down the tubes. It's too bad, but economics forced a lot of them out. Look at modern day makes. One of my cars is a '28 Pontiac. Look at what happened to Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Packard, Studebaker, Kaiser-Frazer, and many other cars. I'm a Buick "fan", but that can disapear someday too.On these forums a lot of particpants own rarer cars than my '28 Pontiac or '27 Marmon Little 8, but it just makes them rarer. If you need parts, regardless of what old car you own, it's definately advisable to do your best to find any parts for it whether you need them or not. I'd keep looking for a manifold and/or a GOOD WELDER to repair yours until you find a replacement. Good luck!!

kaycee

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Kaycee,

I spoke to my welder yesterday after I emailed him a picture of my manifold along with measurements. He says that my manifold will fit into his oven, a must have for this operation. As soon as it thaws out down here in sunny Florida. 23 degrees this morning and supposed to be colder tomorrow but by the end of the week temperatures will be back into the seventies. I hope it doesn't shatter into a million pieces.

ricosan

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Guest kaycee

Think positive! Your welder sounds like he knows what he's up against. You may want some references.Again, good luck, and keep us posted!

kaycee

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting thread! In Post #2, Trimacar refers to the high

survival rate of the Hupmobile Model 20. That model had a

LIFETIME warranty from the factory, which "covers the entire

life of the car, no matter how many different people may own

the car." It covered ALL parts of the car, except tires, against

defects in materials and workmanship (though not against

normal wear).

When claims are made about how many cars survive, I always

take those with a grain of salt. It usually means that a club has

TRACKED that many; but as others have said, many cars are not

known but are still out there.

Nice Marmon, by the way, Mr. Ricosan. Have you thought of going

to an advanced machine shop and fabricating a new part with a 3D printer?

Search Jay Leno's website for "3D printer" and you'll learn a lot. He has

made, for example, a new water pump for his 1914 Premier by just

such a method.

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Another suggestion for repair of a cast-iron manifold:

Call Midwest Cylinder Head and Machine in Nevada, Iowa.

A member of our AACA region is a 1920's Packard specialist,

and he had a cracked manifold in his 1926 Packard. Attempts

by local welders were not successful.

Welding cast iron is an art, and Midwest magnafluxed his manifold

to identify all possible cracks; secured it in a fixture to ensure that

it did not warp; heated it in an oven to cherry red, and then

flowed cast iron into the repair areas. That was followed by a

lengthy cool-down process. After the repair, they machined the flange areas.

He then had the manifold porcelainized at Prairie Auto Porcelain in

Faribault, Minnesota. All this he documented in an article for our region's newsletter,

passing on the information for the next hobbyist.

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