Continental from 1925 Moon

I have a Continental flathead 6 from an (approx.) 1925 Moon sedan. The motor has sat outside for the last 80 years, is seized, and has a badly cracked block so its pretty much trash. I was going to sandblast it, paint and use it for garage decoration so if anyone is really desperate for internal parts I could open it up and see if anything is worth salvaging. I would think there "could" be a good crank, camshaft, useable valves maybe connecting rods if someone is in a real bind. PM me if interested. Located in South Central Manitoba Canada.

Hello,

Does this motor have a thermostat housing? There is a picture of one in the Graham Paige section of this forum

(23 posts down). I beleive these were proprietary to Continental in the 20's. Looking for one for a 1925 Paige.

Thanks,

Dennis

What's the title of the post you are referring to? I'll try to get some pics before the snow flies here.... could be tomorrow.

If it's the one from Huptoy, I don't think I'm going to be able to help you. So far what I'm seeing is a long 3 port manifold that bolts to the top of the head... is this a different setup, or should the thermostat housing be ahead of that?

Yes,

That's the post. I'm not sure if that is exactly what should be on my car. That picture was for an earlier

Cotinental. It would be a 3 port with one smaller,two the same size.

I would like to see the picture when available.

Thanks,

Dennis

This is a long narrow manifold... it looks more like a thermo-syphon system... possibly with no thermostat at all. After seeing the pics I'll go back and have a 2nd look today, and take a closer look at the front of the motor. Maybe it's on the other side of the pump.

Was trying to google a pic of your motor and found this manual. You might want to check it out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Graham-Paige-Model-614-Handbook-circa-1929-/141108483628?pt=UK_CarParts_Vehicles_Manuals_Litterature_ET&hash=item20dab8962c

.... and apparently some Graham Paige's used Lycoming engines as well....

http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2009/11/01/hmn_feature10.html

Ok, the bad news first... my thermostat housing is cracked. In the process of figuring out what I was looking for I have come across some variations of the early Continentals so maybe I can help with a bit of info. When I started digging for info on the early Moons I had a guy send me some pics of a dismantled 27 coupe that had a motor slightly different than my own. Here's a comparison of the 27 Moon to some 21 and 28 Graham Paige shots I found online. There's also a guy parting out a 29 GP(latest info has it a 30) on that forum that you've probably already seen. (Just noticed that the first pic is a straight 8 and really shouldn't be in here)

Edited November 5, 2017 by whtbaron (see edit history)

Ok, now for a little rust and a history lesson. It looks like some of the GP motors have the generator/starter on the right hand side, some on the left. The 27 Moon above has a water pump located midblock, my 25 Moon has it right on the bellhousing at the back (above the starter). Both have the starter on the right. It looks like my generator was driven off the timing chain (or gears) with a shaft through it. At the back of the generator was a right angle drive that drove the distributor/magneto(all missing on my motor) with a shaft going to the back of the motor to the water pump. There are 2 inlet housings where a thermostat might have been (I'm still not 100% sure they had one). One housing is on the bellhousing for the pump inlet, the other is on the side of the block where the water enters the block (most likely position I'd think). Unfortunately both are cracked. You'll note the 27 motor has a small outlet back to the rad on the top of the head, my 25 has a long narrow manifold. Check out the styling on those wild intake/exhaust manifolds! Unfortunately I didn't get all the pics before the snow started to fly. Hope this helps.

Edited November 11, 2013 by whtbaron (see edit history)

Anybody got a badly fried generator/distributor assembly that they'd sell cheap to complete my decorative display?

Still searching online and the only pics I can find with a manifold like mine are on a 1922 Moon. Pics of a 1924 Continental show the waterpump in the center of the block like my 27 pics. My motor may be even older than I thought. The car was a 4 door touring but all I have left are the frame, fenders and the rad cover.

whtbaron,

Thanks for looking and the pictures. Can't help with the generator/dist drive. I'll let you know if I find anything. Please do the same.

Dennis

Post pics of your motor... does it look the same as any of the ones I have posted? Is the waterpump mid-block or at the back?

whtbaron: Assuming that was actually a 1925, just eyeballing two replacement parts catalogs that cover Moon show Cont'ls 6Y, 7C, 7R, 7U, 7Z and 8R...looking at more catalogs may indicate others...I do not know the differences in the engines, if any...

Does that have any visible cast/stamped numbers/letters???

Just got a fresh layer of ice and snow on it last nite so I'll have to do a little cleaning to find them. Where am I looking? Top of head, left or right side of block? As you can see in the pics, there is a spot for a date on one tag, but if it was ever painted on, it's long gone.

Ok, ice and snow were not being cooperative (#1 highway was closed west of Winnipeg this morning) but I think I found the number you are looking for on the front of the head ahead of the firing order. I couldn't find any numbers on the block. As you can see from the pics, there isn't much left of the car (might make a cool speedster some day though) but maybe the light mounts and fender shapes are a clue. It had a solid disc wheel. Front bumper is probably the only valuable part left. Got to love that oil fill cap, though. There's a threaded port on the top of the head near the back beside the water outlet between #4 and #5 spark plugs. It's full of frozen junk so I can't tell if that was where the distributor went, or if it was a separate water fill? Tag on the starter is half gone... Dayton or Dayco? I think the number you requested is 6YA 001A. The tag lists the motor number as 8146Y-5467X so I guess it makes sense that it's a 6Y, which would make it a 3 1/8 bore x 4 1/4 stroke.

Edited November 17, 2013 by whtbaron (see edit history)

After searching pics on the internet, I still seem to come back to a 1924 6-50 as having the same style bumper (wider in the center and seems to be a little unusual in these Moons) and a 1925 Series A as having the same style headlights, although mine had a rear mount spare, so I don't think I'm too far off on the year.

Edited November 17, 2013 by whtbaron (see edit history)

WHTB: My apologies for not blowing up your original pic of the tag...I believe you're correct in it's being the sad remains of a 6Y...you can see the 6Y was formed as part of the tag and all the other numbers are stamped...

Both 30 McCord and 38 Victor gasket catalogs show the 6Y, 7U and 10U sharing the gaskets listed, the OE numbers listed being 6YA-number etc, all being 31/8x41/4...

Both those catalogs list, under some of the engines, the vehicles they were used in (well, some, as these catalogs are never complete and often contradictory)...because I feel bad about missing the pic, here's what the 30 McCord lists:

Anderson---Light 6 model 41---22-25--6Y and 7U...in these cases the catalog doesn't state if both engines were options, were installed depending on which was available at the moment or if one succeeded the other...

Auburn---model 43---23-25----6Y, 7U

Barley---Light 6-50---23-24---same

Columbia---Light 6---22-24---same

Davis---71/ 72. 90---22-25---same

Elcar---50, Light 6---24-25---7U only

Hanson---30---1922-23---6Y only

Hertz---Hertz (the rental Hertz) built this as the first rental car 26-27; neither of these two catalogs list it, and while I do have two listings in other catalogs, one sez 7Z and the other 8U, so I'd guess Hertz put in whatever was in surplus at the time...It's also possible the engine was not in the Hertz but in its predecessor, the Ambassador, originally a luxury car (controlled by Hertz) ,but a smaller car was built 24-25?? just before the name was changed...that would closer match the years of the above cars, too...

Moon---40---22-25---6Y, 7U

Roamer---50-55---25-26---7U only

Columbia truck--Distribution 1Ton---no yrs stated---7U only.

Oddly enough, none of the vehicles listed used the 10U...

I don't feel bad enough to run any catalogs to see what else the 6Y supposedly went into; too many Cont'ls...some Auburn owner will probably be interested...

Per a 36 King Products catalog the 6Y shares

Piston assembly with 7U to # 41897, H6, H7, W4, P17 4 Cyl's with Osc.Type Pin...(the P- indicates a free-standing power unit)...

6Y had its own valves to #10500; after that it shared valves with 6W, 7U, 7Z and 10U...

Rods and mains were shared with 6W, 7U and 7Z, with a note that the rod insert shown was to replace the poured bearing. (No, I don't know what those other engines went in, and I don't care).

With sympathy, Bud

LOL...no apologies necessary Bud! And thanks for the info. I guess I could pull it apart and see if anything is worth posting in the buy/sell section, but it's probably froze back in the bush until next spring anyway. I'm still working on the shop so I'm not really in need of decorations just yet. At least this way if it's posted online and somebody is doing a google search for parts, this post should come up.

If my calculations are correct, that makes it a 196 cubic inch Continental Engine. I really don't know enough about the Moon cars to know the differences between a Model 40 and a Model 50, but you are right, those Continental Motors went into just about everything being built back then, apparently with some variations between manufacturers.

Was looking for an explanation for that large threaded port on the Moon's head, and the only similar ones I could find were on a Durant. Looks like a rather cumbersome plumbing fixture with an electrical component on top. Most likely explanation I have is that it was an early electric sensor for a heat gauge, but I would have thought the early ones would have used capillary tubes. Only other explanation I can think of is that it is a block heater that either gets plugged in or run off the battery. Most rural areas up here wouldn't have had electricity to plug it into during the early 20's.

This is what I "think" I'm looking for in terms of a generator/distributor assembly. Note that the Durant had another variation on the rear mounted water pump. It directs water right into the rear of the block without the short rad hose back to the middle of the block like my Moon had. One version shows the port ahead of the 3rd frost plug, the other behind it. They also show a side entry for the oil fill. The Moon has a large cap off the front of the timing chain cover. Apparently my motor could have used those frost plugs.

Edited November 24, 2013 by whtbaron (see edit history)

Ok, there's a lot of pictures of different motors in this post that are similar to mine and not mine. I've already had a couple enquiries about parts I don't have, so just to clarify, my motor (unfortunately) is the one in posts # 10 and 17. Sorry for the confusion.

I can't believe it was 4 yrs ago that this thread was started, but it looks like it's time to drag it out of retirement again. For about a year Jan and I have been discussing the possibility of using some parts off my motor for his. Last winter it went under the snow before I could get to it, so when the snow started coming down on Tues I thought I better get it in the shop where I could work on it. While Jan has been patiently waiting for me to see if the parts are any good, I have been very impatiently trying to get my electrician to get my floor heat hooked up. After our last discussion it's supposed to be happening on Monday. 

Jan recently found out that the casting for the water outlet is a lot more fragile than it looked, so that was the first part I went after. Learning from his experience, I went very slowly loosening one nut at a time a partial turn at a time. The good news is that I got it off in one piece and it looks pretty good, but the bad news is that it is pitted quite badly where the hose was.  It's about 11 1/2 inches long at the base, with the furthest bolt holes being about 8 1/4" on center. Apparently it was easy to remove because I had help on the inside... 

Unfortunately while moving the motor into the shop, I shook about 80 yrs worth of squirrel and mouse nests loose in the bottom which proceeded to fall through the bottom of the oil pan. This pic is the 2nd pile on the floor after I reached in a dragged out what I could by hand. Yes, that's the bottom of the oil pan on my makeshift engine dolly. The long bolts out the back of the flywheel were for a wooden pulley. Apparently after this motor was removed from the Moon it was used to power a saw mill or grain elevator.  I was beginning to have a bad feeling about the parts inside the motor at this point...

                            

Pistons are the next item on the shopping list, so it was time to break out my new Gearwrench 1/2"  6 point sockets and my favorite homemade breaker bar. I like them. Yes, I could have used an impact, but sometimes I like the feel of doing things manually and I was afraid that those exposed threads on the 90 yr old head studs would snap off. I'm happy to report that I didn't break any. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by whtbaron (see edit history)

At this point I think I learned how Boyd Coddington felt when they unveiled Miss Belvedere. The motor had been stored outside with no spark plugs in the front 3 holes so not too surprisingly, the front piston was cracked from frozen water, as was #3. What surprised me was that there was no piston or connecting rod in #2. Apparently when this motor was put into farm duty as a stationary, they removed #2 piston and ran it as a 5 cylinder. (Edit... that may be incorrect. I now believe what I'm looking at is the wrist pin at the bottom of the bore, and the entire top of the piston has broken up and gone AWOL) . I've opened up some nasty motors in my time, but I must say this is the first time I've seen maggots in one. Note how #4 is the only cylinder that still has carbon in it instead of rust, despite one valve being open. I'm guessing if we can salvage one good piston, that will likely be it. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by whtbaron (see edit history)

After blowing out the creepy crud, the back 2 cylinders are looking a little better, but getting the pistons out without breaking them is going to be a challenge. It's looking better since I started the WD-40/ Fluid Film soak. Hopefully we can still find some good parts in there, but I'm a lot less optimistic about the crank and camshaft now. 

You are having to much fun.

LOL... I am actually.... and now I have the floor heat on in the shop to make it nicer to work!  It's a classic love story really. Iron gets separated from oxygen early in the steel smelting process, and spends the rest of it's life trying to be reunited with it's first partner. After a lifetime of trying to fix things in an unheated shop with a gravel floor, this is officially the first of the "old car project" parts to make it in the doors.... I am a little stoked! Now I need to get the Whippet chassis in there before it freezes to the ground for another winter... We're still soaking... 

Edited November 4, 2017 by whtbaron (see edit history)

Got curious this afternoon and decided to tip the Moon engine on it's side and have a look underneath. First we had to blow out another shovel full of Rockies remains...

 

.

 

There really is 6 connecting rods in there so  the top of#2 piston is almost completely gone, and it does appear to be a 4" stroke. The crank has been emerged in squirrel remains for some time so it's looking pretty rusty and sad....

Strong mice, must be canadian.

 

Strong rust too.... 2 weeks later and I'm still soaking. I've tried heating the outside of the cylinder walls twice, putting the acetylene torch down the coolant ports and melting snow on the piston... no budge. I had to take the rod cap off with the air chisel and I've beat up the rod with the hammer anyway, so I might have to cut the rod below the piston. I'm a little reluctant to do that because then all I have is the remaining rod/wrist pin to hammer on. I wonder if soaking coke down the walls around the piston would dissolve the rust enough to free it up?

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by whtbaron (see edit history)

Try used diesel motor oil.  Not new but used it has acid in it.  Throw a little transmission fluid in it and then open a beer can and drink the beer.

 

If it doesn't hop out on it's own pretty soon I'm thinking more extreme measures might be called for. I hate to do it but since the block is toast anyway, I might take a cutoff blade around the top of the cylinder and see if I can relieve the metal that is hung up against the rings. 

Coming into this string of posts late but Jan just alerted me to it with the comment that it is a Moon engine. I looked up the engine # 814-6Y-5467 and found that number in between two other Moons that we know about and it is a Moon 6-40 engine from a late 1922 or very early 1923. The closest engine number that I have is a 1922 and my guess is it is a 1922 just like the one pictured here.. 

 

That looks like it alright, but yours is a lot prettier! Over a year later and that piston is still soaking. Unfortunately I chipped the one good one so it's probably not of much use to anyone now. The water manifold looked good when I took it off, but developed a crack down the center in storage. They really are a light and fragile casting. 

 

Coming in late to this topic and I know that fellow club member Jan A. has been in contact with you but just to post a little more detail about your engine number "814-6Y-5467". This engine is a late 1922 6Y engine for a 6-40 Moon. The 6Y engine was used for the 1922-23 6-40 Moons. Late in the production of 1923 6-40's Moon upgraded the 6-Y from Continental to the 7U engine for its 1924 Series U and for the 1925 Newport models (which were 6-40 models renamed). There are many differences between the 6Y and 7U engine but they both used the 6Y-300 block that is interchangeable between the two.

 

Interestingly, our club only has one other "814-6Y" number recorded from a chassis that doesn't have a body. Most engine numbers for 6-40's were stamped as 6Y-?????. But some 6-40's have been recorded with a leading number in front of the 6Y (only on the engine plate but not on the firewall dataplate that also records the engine number).  Some have the 814, 582, 854 or 902 in front of the 6Y but we have not figured our why yet. Does anyone have some thoughts on that?

 

Pictured below is a 6Y engine for a 1923 6-40 Moon