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413 in a windsor deluxe traveler?


AdW13

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We are chevy people but picked up a 51 windsor deluxe traveler yesterday. It is all original but the l-head motor is frozen up. The guy had a 413 out of a motorhome with tranny for 350 bucks and said it would work with mods. Looking at stuff now, this may not be a very good setup without new heads....so what would you do? I say try to get the lhead to turn over...and if that fails put the 413 in as is and drive around town like that a year or so then get a stroker kit....seems to me even a low compression big block would feel ok for driving around town.

Id also like any suggested links for forums or parts for these....looks like I will be learning about these old girls. This one will be a nice stable mate for my 51 chevy business coupe.

Thanks,

Angie

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A 413 is not a low compression motor. The motor home engines have a high torque low RPM camshaft.

A 413 engine tranny combo would take a lot of work to install.You would have to modify things like the parking brake, drive shaft, exhaust, etc.

These in line engines reliable, are fairly simple to repair, and replacements are not hard to find.

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Thanks. My hubby and I both must have misunderstood what we read last night...we will look at the option of a bolt in replacement. We are aware that many things will need changed. We didnt want to pass on the motor cuz he said he would sell it to us with tranny for 350 so we would have a motor....he didnt have any six bangers. We will look everything over and decide what way to go. Hopefully others will weigh in, too. Stock is cool...but will it feel slow? We can do most mods...and if we cant do something properly we take it to a hotrod shop. We have a 57 chevy truck with camaro subframe and 454.....and also a 73 camaro that has aftermarket rear suspension....so we kinda understand the process....plus we used to race so we can fabricate.

Once we get it looked over the solution may jump out at us. Kinda bad to change something that is that old.

Thanks again. I went and read more about the lhead motor....and directed hubby to it.

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I have had several of those flathead sixes and almost always, can get them running with minimal work and expense.

Even if it is worn out, they are one of the simplest and easiest engines to rebuild. All parts are available and they are not expensive, $75 for a set of six NOS pistons, how good do you want it?

If the rod is not sticking thru the block, or the block frozen and cracked, I wouldn't think of an engine swap. If someone told you a 413 is a simple bolt in swap he is a liar. You would have to replace the engine, trans, driveshaft and rear axle for a start. Radiator, motor mounts, then there is interference with the steering. Exhaust, wiring, conversion to 12 volt electrical system. It can be done but a lot of work.

If you are wondering how a flathead, six cylinder engine can power such a big car read this article . It is a real eye opener .

A DeSoto is practically identical to a Chrysler Windsor except for the grille and trim. This one happens to be the 8 passenger sedan (limo) version, about 2 feet longer and 1000 pounds heavier than your car.

1951 DeSoto Suburban cars - long term report / car review with trailer towing

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Thanks. That was a great read.

No, the guy didnt saythe 413 would bolt in. We knew it would be motor, tranny, rearend and components. we will definitely be trying to get stock motor going first. .....or get another 6...but he said the motor would be good in the car...low miles and lots of power.....we asked for a 6 but he didnt have one. He offered this motor and tranny and components for 350 and he normally gets 350 forthe motor he said....so we figured we better get it.

Id love to keep it stock. Cant wait to learn more. Thanks

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Well better go back to the guy who says a 413 will fit easy and ask him how to do it. You learn something new every day. I would love to know how to do this job, back when I was doing engine swaps I would have thought it was hard.

Joking aside, I would be trying to get the original engine running. I have brought several of those old flathead sixed back to life, usually I can have them eating out of my hand in a couple of hours. If it runs and has good oil pressure and good compression I wouldn't think of changing it. If the engine was worn I would rebuild it before I did an engine swap.

The engine may look small for such a big car but they are foolers. The long stroke engine has high torque in the low and mid range where you need it. They are no race car but have plenty of power for all normal driving.

If I wanted a classy car with lots of room and comfort, I would want one like yours. If I wanted a fast car I would buy something else.

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Yeah, we knew no swap is easy. I think he wanted to be sure we kept it mopar...cuz I mentioned we have a 454...lol he said the motor is froze but we will try some seafoam or marvel mystery oil on it. maybe whatever he tried may have even loosened it up. I am an optimist.

Yeah...we have fast a camar and understand the classy part....but thinking of a big block in one with class down tge road sounds ok too.

I have a 51 chevy business coupe that I am keeping completely stock. I love old cars...even if some drive like tractors.

Thanks for your feedback.

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Chryslers don't drive like tractors and neither should your Chevy. I know guys who have similar Chevs. They went over the front end, replaced worn parts, and filled the shock absorbers. Then got an alignment done. This completely transformed the steering and removed all desire for a different front suspension.

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These Chryslers handle fairly well and are very nice Highway cars. The six cylinder cars are lighter on the front wheels which make cornering and tire wear better than the V8 cars. Chrysler cars also used independent front ends since the early 1930's.

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These Chryslers handle fairly well and are very nice Highway cars. The six cylinder cars are lighter on the front wheels which make cornering and tire wear better than the V8 cars. Chrysler cars also used independent front ends since the early 1930's.

Cool. I cant wait to feel it. I imagine it was way more car than my bus. Coupe...the windsor was almost twice as much in 51....i am thinking this old girl will drive like a caddy once we rebuild frontend...i havent really looked at the frontend much. I really look forward to looking it over when we pick it up wednesday. They look to be built very solid.

We have decided to try to keep it stock...we will b searching for a block I am sure....so any suggestions on where to find them and any links to research them would be greatly appreciated. I love to learn.

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They handle well in the sense of being easy to drive, not beating a sports car around the track. Ride is kind of floaty. They had the best shock absorbers of the time, Chrysler Oriflow tubular shocks which were self adjusting for smooth or rough roads. For reasons best known to Chrysler engineers, they fastened the top of the shock to the top control arm and the bottom to the bottom control arm.

You can buy a kit to weld brackets onto the frame, and convert to a modern type shock absorber. This tends to stabilize the front end and remove some of the floaty feeling.

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I don't know why you want a new block. The one you have is the best one they made, no kidding. Unless the rod is sticking thru the side, or there is a big crack from freezing, you have nothing to worry about.

More details on this. If the rad was filled with plain water, and it froze, it could crack the block. Even if they drained the rad if they did not drain the block it could crack. Examine the left side, or driver's side of the block. You will see a drain plug or drain cock. If the block was frozen you could also see a crack. I have seen them split from end to end if the rad was not drained. If the rad was drained but they forgot to drain the block, there will more likely be a short crack behind the starter.

A small crack is not the end of the world, they can be fixed and will not ruin the block.

Now about the engine. Chrysler made 2 flathead six engines, a smaller one for Plymouth and Dodge, a larger one for Chrysler and DeSoto. Smaller measures 23" long at the head, bigger measures 25". They are very similar looking, the main tipoff is size.

So you already have the "big block" motor.

They were made in various sizes all with 3 7/16 bore and different stroke crankshafts. 51 - 54 Chrysler used the biggest one they made, a 265 cu in with 4 3/4 stroke. This is the longest stroke crank that will fit. They had to use special con rod bolts with no heads, to clear the block and cam.

In addition to being the biggest displacement your engine has full flow oil filtration just like the newest cars. This is a real feature, cheaper cars like your Chev had partial flow, bypass filters or no filter at all.

You will see a cast aluminum tower on the side of the engine, this is the filter. It has a replaceable cartridge you can still buy at any auto parts store. They are used on various diesel engines and tractor engines to this day.

It is a well built engine with full pressure oiling to all bearings unlike certain cheap cars of the time. You can run down the hiway all day at 60 - 65 with no problem. They will not snap your neck off but have ample power for all normal traffic situations.

One thing you should be aware of. They are a very well behaved engine that will continue running in an advanced state of wear with no knocks or bangs, and no sign of distress. They just get slower and slower, and harder to start.

If it was mine I would get the engine running while making minimal changes to it. Then assess the condition of the engine, basically oil pressure and a compression test. If it has good oil pressure and good compression I would tune it up and drive it. If compression was low but oil pressure good I would consider a ring and valve job, provided it has less than 60,000 miles. If compression and oil pressure were low and it had 80,000 miles I would consider a full rebuild.

This is not as bad as you might think. As I said, they are a tough engine, simple and easy to work on, and all the parts are available cheap.

It should be possible to do a complete rebuild for $1000 to $1500 if you do it yourself. I know someone who had a similar engine rebuilt and the job cost $3500 including removing and replacing the engine, and a complete rebore and rebuild by an auto machine shop. The engine was running but had 2 broken pistons when it went into the shop. The owner was driving it occasionally, the only problem was low compression, almost no compression in 2 cylinders, low on power and hard to start.

The mechanic who tore down the engine said "Wow it's a good thing you brought the car in for a rebuild when you did, look at those pistons" "Ya, no wonder it would only go 45 mph" " How, on the back of a tow truck?" ha ha ha.

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Thanks for the info. I will be looking into the shock mount brackets down the road.

As for the motor...the guy @ the junkyard said it is frozen up and if he could have gotten it running it would have been...but we did figure we would try to get it going. I know about the cheap cars...my 51 Chevy has babbit bearings and an oil slinger...not pressurized..but I am keeping it stock, too. Knowing the car had been sitting forever we thought we may have to beat the pistons out...we wouldn't replace block unless necessary...but a source for them would also be helpful. Is there a website you guys use? Oi did see that the Chrysler block was the 25 inch one...I will be learning much more after we get her home today. We have couple tricks for unsticking a motor...marvel mystery oil, seafoam, or coca cola in the cylinders..do you guys have any other suggestions to unstick it?

The big block was just in case we can't get the 6 running. We may keep it for another project.

Thanks again,

Angie

Edited by AdW13 (see edit history)
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You can try squirting some oil down the spark plug holes and turning the engine by hand.

If the engine is truly stuck better take the head off and find out why. This is not a very big deal, a new head gasket is about $35. You may find one piston stuck, or a few valves, on the other hand maybe the engine is shot. No way to know for sure without taking the head off.

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I just mean they don't corner very flat with the I beam suspension....I think even new they wouldn't handle like something with newer style upper and lower control arm front ends....but heck they are fun to drive.

They don't have I beam suspension. They have independent front suspension like the newest cars, except much more strongly built but not as sophisticated.

When you get a good look underneath compare the front end to a Mustang II or Camaro. They compare the way a locomotive compares to a plastic fork. But for some weird reason, people who have never worked on them think the Mustang II is better.

If the front end is in good shape they drive easy and ride well. Read the 51 DeSoto story again. 60+ years of driving takes its toll. They are not hard to fix and parts are available. If everything is in top shape and an alignment done you will not want to change the front end. They may not be perfect but they are a lot better than uninformed people give them credit for.

If you really want a Camaro, buy a Camaro. Don't waste your time turning a nice old car into a fake Camaro.

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Guest Stephen weaver

Could you please list the link to the Chrysler l block parts? I'm the other in this car. I enjoyed your explanation of freeing the motor, how can you tell which pistons are traveling the same way to put the block of wood on. I can't find much on line about parts. This car is missing some under the hood. Thanks!

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Guest Stephen weaver

I already have the camaro that goes around corners and is fast! This Chrysler is all about the big cruser ride.

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You misunderstood me....I have no desire to make this a camaro. I am uninformed but trying to learn. I am no fan of mustang ii. I never said I wanted to change the front suspension. I was wondering how they handled stock. I see it is very beefy suspension...but bulk doesn't always equal the best...I am sure I will like the ride...and I know I love driving the camaro, too. My bus. Coupe probably don't handle like a tractor either...I guess I was being facetious. Sorry you misunderstood me.

Edited by AdW13 (see edit history)
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You can get most parts from your local NAPA store or other good parts store.

If there is a dusty old parts store in your town with an old gray haired or bald headed guy behind the counter so much the better. The shiny new store on the main drag with the kid with purple hair and a snot ring behind the counter, not so likely to be of help. You want the kind of place where farmers go.

The same engine was built by the millions and used in cars, trucks, farm machinery, industrial engines and marine engines. Last used in military Power Wagons up to 1968 and marine and industrial engines up to 1972. So engine parts not hard to find.

One of the best sources is Vintage Power Wagons. They have lots of NOS and new and used parts, most of the engine parts are the same as the cars. Last time I looked at their site they had NOS pistons for $75 a set of 6.

Andy Bernbaum is a Chrysler parts specialist

Roberts Motor Parts is another.

If you want speed equipment like finned aluminum head, reground cam Edgy Edgerton of Edgy Speed in California is a good one to know.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Could you please list the link to the Chrysler l block parts? I'm the other in this car. I enjoyed your explanation of freeing the motor, how can you tell which pistons are traveling the same way to put the block of wood on. I can't find much on line about parts. This car is missing some under the hood. Thanks!

Like I said, I would oil up the cylinders, make sure there was oil in the crankcase and try to turn the engine by hand. Using a wrench on the crankshaft or, by turning the fan blades by hand. Or see if the starter will turn it over.

If it is really stuck then you have to take the head off. Usually what you find is one or 2 cylinders that happened to have the valves open, have a little rust inside and the valves are stuck. Then it is a matter of cleaning, oiling and if necessary taking things apart.

I don't recall anything about a block of wood. I assume you mean putting a block of wood on top of a piston and hitting it with a hammer? I have never done this, it was never necessary on any engine I worked on.

cylinders #1 and #6 rise and fall together. Likewise #2 and #5. #3 and #4. Each pair is separated by 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation from the other 2 pairs.

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Thanks for the info. I have checked out a few of those sites...but not the power wagon one. The others want more than that for pistons. I think hubby (STEPHEN weaver) was thinking of a private message that 28chrysler sent talking about putting a chunk of wood on the piston and a strap of metal across tightening bolts to use them to force the pistons to move. He also recommended a fifty fifty mixture of atf and acetone...which sounds like it would penetrate a lot of gunk.

As for parts stores....we very rarely go to the shiny ones...we do frequent a Napa in a little town that caters to farmers...but overall they are more spendy and we tend to buy stuff online if we can wait for it to be shipped. We live in the country...between Spokane Washington and Canada....so it is a pretty rural.

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I like to support local stores if possible, I live in Cobourg Ontario pop 17000. By the time you pay for shipping the difference in cost is minimal. But if there is a big diff, like $50 I will buy online. And some things are just not available locally.

A small town parts store is good. If you go in and ask for a head gasket for a 1950 Chrysler flathead six they may just have one hanging on the wall. If not they will be able to get one in a day or 2.

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Guest Stephen weaver

Are all of the 4 3/4 cranks the same? We will still get the original motor to run, but we found a 25 in industrial motor with a stick shift, has a running motor. Can we just swap motors to get it back on the road? Will our automatic stuff replace the flywheel? It runs... It also has a generator and fuel pump we need. 300.00. Bucks. What do you think? Thanks

Edited by Stephen weaver (see edit history)
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2013-08-30-102439.jpgFuel pump he meant...it also runs but has a different carb. Someone said there may be issues since it came off a big dodge truck with a five speed...and maybe the stick motors don't work with the fluid drive...is that so? We decided to get it because it has the other parts we need no...and the generator and fuel pump could almost add up to the three hundred bucks...it would be nice to be able to bolt in and feel the car while we get the original one going or rebuilt.....if it bolts right in.

Here are some pics of the traveler today. It cleaned up OK. I didn't want to do much scrubbing on it until the fabric softens up a bit.

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$300 bucks for a running motor... some people have all the luck. I can't guarantee the engine will fit your trans but I don't know any reason it won't.

You will have to use the carburetor off the car engine. It has 2 electrical switches to control the transmission. You may also find the exhaust manifold is different (it may have an outlet that points upward like a tractor) but your car manifolds will fit.

I would buy it even if I didn't need it. 265 engines aren't that common or easy to find. Like I say, some people have all the luck.

I'm totally impressed and envious of how solid the body is, looks like there isn't a single hole in the floor.

The interior is something new to me, all the ones I have seen were striped broadcloth. Is it because of it being the Traveller model or was the interior redone?

Now start looking for some stock wheels or at least put some hubcaps on those ugly trailer wheels.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Cool. Thanks for the confirmation on the motor....he wanted to be sure it wIuld work out before selling it...I told hubby, just tell him we want it no matter what...cuz even if it didn't work it had all the stuff ours is missing. It looks dirty but no major oil spots...tranny they pulled off was clean...he said it ran strong and he was keeping it for himself....and I think I could have got it for 250 but knowing the trouble he went through to get it out where we could see it...I figured the three hundred he wanted would be OK. Hubby told him to tell him when he gets others...he has tons of big old trucks and cars come through there...and he prices stuff to sale...I saw some company that wanted 750 for a core motor...jeez.

We are working on the wheels part. neither of us can stand em either...but i just got tires for my 51 Chevy....any suggestions what wheels to look for? We are going to Oregon next month and plan to go to an all mopar junkyard.

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The Chrysler and DeSoto Traveler models all had the style interior material as in the car in this post, I believe. Some, like the Suburbans had wood, too.

I thought I saw that. I was surprised how well it looked...but it will look much better soon...I love detail work.

Got a pic of your first car? I'd love to see it. We almost bought a basket of parts that were supposed to combine to build a 1925 dodge brothers coupe. The guy was our neighbor and he was building a sedan and selling his coupe for 1500 bucks....we have kicked ourselves over and over for not getting it.

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Guest Stephen weaver

When we looked it up, it was called alligator skin. There's not one dent in the car. The pics show one piece of chrome is off the door, its in the car. It has two dents. I love this car already. The 1 1/2 ton trucks have duel exhaust and two two barrels. We will be going to a few big yards around Portland or.

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I thought I saw that. I was surprised how well it looked...but it will look much better soon...I love detail work.

Got a pic of your first car? I'd love to see it. We almost bought a basket of parts that were supposed to combine to build a 1925 dodge brothers coupe. The guy was our neighbor and he was building a sedan and selling his coupe for 1500 bucks....we have kicked ourselves over and over for not getting it.

The primer red one is my first one that is lurking in the garage waiting for me to finish it. The blue/black one I have had for a few years.....

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When we looked it up, it was called alligator skin. There's not one dent in the car. The pics show one piece of chrome is off the door, its in the car. It has two dents. I love this car already. The 1 1/2 ton trucks have duel exhaust and two two barrels. We will be going to a few big yards around Portland or.

OMG that is the Holy Grail of flathead Chrysler sixes, the twin carb dual exhaust FACTORY hop up. I have no idea what that engine is even worth. I know a number of nostalgia type flathead fans have been looking for one, but nobody has ever found one.

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Cool. Thanks for the confirmation on the motor....he wanted to be sure it wIuld work out before selling it...I told hubby, just tell him we want it no matter what...cuz even if it didn't work it had all the stuff ours is missing. It looks dirty but no major oil spots...tranny they pulled off was clean...he said it ran strong and he was keeping it for himself....and I think I could have got it for 250 but knowing the trouble he went through to get it out where we could see it...I figured the three hundred he wanted would be OK. Hubby told him to tell him when he gets others...he has tons of big old trucks and cars come through there...and he prices stuff to sale...I saw some company that wanted 750 for a core motor...jeez.

We are working on the wheels part. neither of us can stand em either...but i just got tires for my 51 Chevy....any suggestions what wheels to look for? We are going to Oregon next month and plan to go to an all mopar junkyard.

Is that junkyard in Sandy, Oregon?

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He didn't mean we found that setup....but we wish we did....I think he was amazed they had such options....that would be bad...we get lucky enough to find a very rare car for dirt cheap, then a motor for cheap that runs and is all there...then that. I bet you wanted to punch us...lol just kidding. sorry. How many trucks had em? We live in rural farm country...and them old farmers always loved horsepower and had nice trucks...maybe we will run across one.

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I think interior is original....it eveneven was on dash. I figure if I make kick panels I can use the material I cut off for the dash....unless I findfind the alligator skin material somewhere online. There are even little areas on the door end that are formed and look so cool.

I did find a hole about ten mm in size on passenger side firewall...and the rear seat floorpan feels a bit softer the rest. It is very solid and straight. It was last licensed in 63...the SAM date the last owner transfered title...he didn't get much out of it...we think the eighteen thousand miles may be original....cuz everything is so tight...and the pedals still pretty new...the title list a different number than the serial number on the car...hoping it is just some other number like my chevy

Which had motor number instead of vin on title. We still arent sure why it would have a 46-48 motor, either. It was sold to the guy we got it from through a reputable auction place...as part of an estate.

Yep, keiser13. Have u been there? If so is it worth going to? We also plan to visit one with all makes in boring.

Edited by AdW13 (see edit history)
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Dodge trucks use a variety of motors. Light trucks, 1/2 ton 3/4 ton and 1 ton used the Dodge car engine, the 23" long block. Heavier trucks could be ordered with the larger DeSoto/Chrysler engine in 237, 251 and 265 cu in sizes. The 251 was most common. 265 much less common. 265 with dual carbs and dual exhaust, have heard of them but never seen one. Used in 1 1/2 ton and larger trucks only, as an option. Although, the 251 was used up to 1968 in 1 1/2 ton trucks and 72 in Power Wagons.

There was an even larger flathead six, 30" or 33" long. It came in displacements up to 413 cu in and was used in heavy trucks until the V8 came along.

I live in farm country and know what you mean about old trucks and machinery being left in fields and fence rows. If you spot an old "Pilot House" grain truck from the late forties or early fifties and can get a peek under the hood you never know what you might find.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Thanks. We will be on the lookout. They did that with cars, too. And some were Packards and cadilacs. We enjoy driving around looking at them. In Sprague, wa...near us there are a bunch....hundreds... Of various BIG trucks in one place. We looked at the Chevy trucks and looked right past the dodges. We will go back and look.

We see a lot left out to rust in the field when we are driving around the reservation, too.

I bet the traveler has been in a tiny little garage that disintegrated around it all this time. It had a city address in Spokane....but an older part of town...poor car. She won't be in the city much anymore...lol

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