HPOF vs HPOF "Original"

Hi all-

Can anyone explain the difference between HPOF certification and HPOF "Original"? I know the "Original" award comes after receiving the first HPOF, but what would make a car eligible for the first HPOF but not the second "Original"?

I've read the judging guidelines and would like some clarification, if possible.

Thanks,

Chris

You have to obtain the HPOF certification before you are eligible to compete for the "AACA Original" award. It also takes a greater degree of originality to qualify for the "Original" tab that is attached behind the HPOF Oval.

While this is not technically correct, I would say the HPOF Oval is essentially like a First Junior in the HPOF class and the "Original" tab is essentially like a Senior in the HPOF Class.

A car could have enough original components to qualify for the HPOF certification yet receive enough deductions at a second meet to not meet the "AACA Original" criteria.

If this happened, the owner could get a highlighted copy of the sheet and determine where he lost points. In some cases, it might be possible to substitute original components from a parts car to replace any non original components to increase the chance of obtaining the "AACA Original" award at a subsequent meet. Obviously some things cannot be undone, so it may be a lost cause.

Something incongruous about "substitute original components from a parts car to replace any non original components to increase the chance of obtaining the "AACA Original" award". Apparently "they are only original once" isn't exactly true. I guess if the replacement part is too nice you could "unrestore" it to make it "more original". The mind boggles.

There are some fantastic "original" cars out there that have had the "unrestore" treatment.....it's an art that some have learned.....

Restorer32,

I understand and agree with you, but that is basically how I understand the current thinking on HPOF from the last CJE on the subject that I took. If you have a damaged part, it is considered OK to bolt on another original unrestored part to replace the damaged component. In my own situation, I was somewhat dismayed that the original hose clamps had been replaced with aftermarket hose clamps before I bought the car. Although one school of thought is that they don't mark you off for such maintenance items, I was able to find original hose clamps on a junkyard car and my HPOF car now has correct original style GM hose clamps of the right age.

You can't restore it but you can maintain it. If your maintenance uses original factory unrestored parts that is far better than using an incorrect aftermarket part. Some things you can't do but there are some minor things that you can do to make the car a better unrestored example.

Thank you for the input.

Why was the change made? The old process was in place for 25 years and (from the outside) seemed to work well.

I agree there are some great freshly unrestored cars out there. Hopefully, the judges will be able to recognize them. Although, there have been some cars certified that were simply older restorations and had no factory original fabrics left. Perhaps this new process is a way to catch some of these cars so they don't slip through.

You would have to ask someone from the HPOF committee for why changes were made. I think that changing HPOF to 25 years and older like other AACA Classes was an improvement in my opinion. I think that the HPOF committee is doing a pretty good job of evaluating the cars but I have no experience with how it was done previously.

Mankind is competitive by nature. Part of the reason for HPOF was to deemphasize the competitive aspects of restoring and showing old cars that so many decry but here we are competing to have our cars certified as "Original". The more things change the more they stay the same.

Amen.Now I better get out to the garage and make my HPOF cars more original before Hershey.

Let's not take the fun out of it and blow it way out of context. It may be competitive for some but not for most.

If an owner of a mostly original car is taught that something on his car is not original (such as the hose clamps that Matt discussed, or something of larger magnitude such as an obviously re-plated bumper or grilleshell, or a reupholstered seat or door panel), then what is the harm in him finding an un-restored part to replace it? You can make fun that he is "restoring its originality", but in fact that's what he's doing. The purpose of HPOF is to make record of benchmark cars so that restorers can see how cars were finished and put together originally. If a restored part is replaced with one that has never been restored, there is no intent of pulling the wool over anyone's eyes, just the effort to display a correct historical artifact.

Of course West is correct but doesn't a car with "restored originality" defeat the purpose of having unrestored cars as reference points as to how cars really were in the day? If we aren't willing to trust the period correctness of a fully restored car why would we trust the period correctness of a car with "restored originality"? We all know there are cars being derestored back to someone's idea of "originality". A historical artifact is a historical artifact and in the best of all worlds any changes from its "as found" condition should be documented. You'll have to forgive me. My training as an archaeologist is showing here but an under restored car presents just as distorted a picture of how cars actually were built as does an over restored car. End of the day though it's all about fun. I have a mostly original Model A that has had a bit of its originality restored and I hope it never gets restored and in many ways is more fun (and certainly less expensive) than if it were restored to show condition.

Been watching this thread for the past couple of days. Some interesting perspectives on HPOF and HPOF Original. My input pertains to paint. How much repaint would an HPOF Judge allow on a car to not qualify as HPOF or better yet HPOF Original. over the past couple of years I have seen full repaints on both catagories qualify. I don't agree,

but that's just me. I am an advocate of original cars and really enjoy them. Currently have 2 HPOF Original cars. (neither has been repainted)

I know of cars that were denied HPOF certification due to a repaint. I have heard people debate that one both ways. My latest purchase is a surprisingly original 1954 Buick Special. The more I look at things, the more original I discover it to be. It has had a repaint, so I intend to put it in DPC. My 1984 Buick Riviera is an AACA Original, and has some major imperfections in the paint, but I intend to leave it alone. It is all original.

OK, so the issue of new paint was brought up. A good friend of mine, who's car has been HPOF certified, tried for Original last season. On the showfield, the team captain wanted to speak with the owner about his car being repainted. For that reason he was denied the Original certification. I agree. The team captain continued on to inform him that because of the new paint, he was to relinquish the HPOF badge and move into class judging or DPC. Ultimately, the vehicle DID NOT receive Repeat HPOF. The owner admits the car was repainted PRIOR to receiving HPOF certification, but is otherwise original in all aspects. Then was told "the rules have changed". HPOF certification is a moving target, but I thought it was said certifications prior to subsequent rule changes were grandfathered.

OK, so the issue of new paint was brought up. A good friend of mine, who's car has been HPOF certified, tried for Original last season. On the showfield, the team captain wanted to speak with the owner about his car being repainted. For that reason he was denied the Original certification. I agree. The team captain continued on to inform him that because of the new paint, he was to relinquish the HPOF badge and move into class judging or DPC. Ultimately, the vehicle DID NOT receive Repeat HPOF. The owner admits the car was repainted PRIOR to receiving HPOF certification, but is otherwise original in all aspects. Then was told "the rules have changed". HPOF certification is a moving target, but I thought it was said certifications prior to subsequent rule changes were grandfathered.

While we are on the "paint" subject I also noticed that most of the "over restored" cars (like class 36B) at the G/N all had new BC/CC paint jobs. Not too many had the original type paint of Acrylic Laquer like they suppose to be. I guess the judges leave

this slide also. Larry

I would have responded to this thread sooner, but I've been out of the country. While we have upgraded HPOF to make it more meaningful, we are not about to take away any current awards. Just as in class judging, we may come across a car that might be better placed in a different class. It is always the owners' decision to turn in an award and change classes, even if it's our mistake. I will be the first to say I was skeptical about changing our evaluation, but now that I've worked with the new form, I think we've made a great step forward. It will take time to get it all right and we will be tweaking the process as necessary. I think that what we're doing is very important to AACA, and also important that the results have strong credibility all through the hobby. Roger Irland HPOF Chair

It is my understanding, that maintenance items may be replaced without affecting originality. Hoses, hose clamps, belts, and similar items, are, as I understand it, considered maintenance items. If I'm not correct, someone please advise all here. If a maintenance item was previously, but incorrectly replaced, can't it now be replaced with the correct maintenance item? What are some other examples of maintenance items which can be replaced without affecting originality?

I think the HPOF Original award is a good idea. We all know HPOF stands for Historical Preservation of Original features. NOT historical preservation of ALL original features. The way I see it is the original award just takes it a step farther. Sort of like a Sr. award of HPOF. Like anything else, it could become a tight rope walk. My opinion is that no vehicle that has been repainted should be considered for the "original" award.

My opinion is that no vehicle that has been repainted should be considered for the "original" award.

All well and good if you are talking about cars from the 50s and 60s, but as a blanket rule I would have to disagree and suggest that it might be best to include some sort of time consideration. For instance, back in the early 80s I had an incredibly original 1911 REO. I thought it was in original paint as everything suggested this. Certainly everything else about the car was untouched... what would be called a true "barn find" today, although that expression is more recent. Some time after I acquired the car, by an amazing coincidence, I met the man who owned it before WWII and he told me he'd painted it in 1939. So... it had been repainted when it was 28 years old and I owned it 46 years later. Just how many brass, or even pre-1930 cars are there that have never been repainted? Can most people, omniscient AACA judges included, tell if a 1921 RR was repainted in 1924? With early, expensive cars it was common to have them painted every year or two ... Personally, I have no interest in judging of any sort but at least the AACA has finally come to recognize that well preserved original cars have real merit of their own... its late, but better late than never.

I was told by a member who annually takes his car to Hershey for his HPOF award that is is OK to have, say a repainted automobile, as long as the engine compartment, trunk area, interior, etc. are original. Or, if the interior was replaced, that's OK, as long as the paint is original. He talks in "thirds", meaning that if about only 1/3rd of your car has been restored, you still qualify for the HPOF award.

I suspect that a newly painted car would draw more attention than one that had been repainted 20 years ago, but that is just a guess.

So, is the above logic correct?

Very interesting thread - now, could someone post the exact rules for HPOF or at least tell us where to read them so we don't go in circles on this? Does it state anywhere about paint, interior, engine bay, etc.?

In the Official Judging Guidelines which you can pick up at any judging school, buy for $5 or look it up for free on AACA.org, you'll find the form that we use to evaluate HPOF cars. It's in appendix 3 amongst all the other judging forms. We have made changes since that book was printed, mainly in adding the Original award, but it will still give you a very good idea of all the areas of compliance we look at and how they are scored. Note that there is a lower score required for older cars. In some ways our job should be easier than class judging as it's either original or it's not. I find it still requires a measure of judgement to evaluate these cars fairly, a challenge I've always enjoyed. That's also why the team is selected from experienced and proven judges. Cheers, Roger Irland HPOF chair

Here's a link to the online Judges Guidelines. Scroll to page 61 for HPOF and HPOF "Original" info.

http://www.aaca.org/images/meet_brochures/2013_Judging_Guidelines.pdf

TG