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Another Hupmobile Model 20


MochetVelo

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G, day to all especially Phil.

I think we used new HT b/n with the nuts on the tooth side We would have used new heavy gauge spring washers and some grade of Loctite . As you go, offer up the centre into each housing with your spacer block ,shims or whatever to be sure the bolt heads are not fouling the bearing housing. Take a skim off the heads if they are. This position is going to be determined by the diameter of the pinion head. For a start set up with the heels of the pinion and crownwheel level. Try the backlash in three places and work on not less than six thou at the tightest spot. Only use a minimum of bolts until you reach a satisfactory mark, looking through the oil filler with your torch. You can use some metalthread screws to find your shim pac thickness but don't use them in the final assembly. You may have to go and have a play in the sand box a few times before you get it right, but you will get there. A lot of Hup bevel gears here are FORD replacements. readily available.I grafted a bevel set from a Willys 77 into our model D but it was not easy.Just keep HUPPING along in 2014. Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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Hi Phil,

I just noticed from one of your photos that you were using a ring compressor when putting your block back on down over the pistons... as I will be putting my blocks back on shortly, can I ask how you did this? Does your ring compressor open up so that you can slip it past the piston once the rings are in?

Regards,

Andrew.

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Speaking of differentials, here is the Model T's. It;s quite like the Hupmobile. Note that the thrust is handled by simple washers, and no ball-bearings as on the Hupp. Originally, Ford made these thrust washers of babbit, and they disintegrated, causing problems. Note these washers are the superior bronze type.

Phil

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  • 4 weeks later...

After several attempts, I'm ready to assemble the differential. Could anyone advise how to set the thrust (end play) and the engagement with the driveshaft pinion gear? In the Ford T, the driveshaft is removed from the car and fitted to the ring gear on the bench. Is the Hupp done similarly? I used tapered bearings for the thrust in the differential. I'm thinking I can set these by turning the bolts until the ring gear binds, and then back off some. Is that correct? Any aid appreciated!

Phil

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G,day Phill. Set the LHS axle housing in a clamp or a vice on your workbench with the open side up. Back the three bearing extraction screws right off and with the new Timken cup fitted in the housing offer up the carrier assembly into the housing so that the crown wheel has maximum backlash. Now fit the torque tube containing its shaft and pinion assembled to the one half of the axle housing in your vice. Next adjust the pinion in or out with spacer washers between the torque tube assembly until the heel ends of the pinion are level with the heel ends of the crown wheel. The thickness of the temporary washers will determine the shim pack you need here. Note there is a small projection on the torque tube to accurately locate the tube to the axle housing. Bring the crown wheel on its carrier up to the pinion using the three bearing extraction screws which you replaced with long allen head for convienience .Allow about ten thou by feel of backlash. Lift out the CW assembly and with a depth gauge measure the protrusion of the pusher screws Make up a spacer of Brass or Steel to this thickness. And now reinstall. With the RHS prepared in the same way assemble with 3 or 4 B/N . Leave the torque tube off just now. Bring up your new allen screws on this housing and turning the C/W assembly through the vacated torque tube hole give a nice steady drag. Loosten the B/N on the flange and with a feeler gauge measure the distance the joint springs apart. 003 to 005 will do. As before make a spacer to the value of the protrusion of the allen screws.

It is not a wise plan to use the three allen head screws on the bearing cup although some do. Shim packs can be used to trim the spacer adjustment Do not use paper gaskets rely on 515. Double nut or wire the torque tube. If the shim pac exceeds the locating spigot the cup of the taper pinion bearing can be shimmed behind the bearing cup Swearing is tolerated but pref when no one is around. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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A couple lubrication questions:

- What lube should be used in the drive shaft U-joint? I note that my car has none at all, and the manual specifies grease.

- Moving down the drive shaft, I assume the ball bearing behind the pinion gear gets its lube from the differential. Is there any seal or other barrier to prevent the lube from traveling up the torque tube toward the U-joint, or does gravity keep it toward the rear?

Phil

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G,day Huppers. Phil, we use gear lube GL OO, which is a slimy pourable grease commonly used in track rollers of dozers, in our the uni joint. Because we have the white metal plain bearing in back of the gearbox and no oil seal there, oil from the engine goes back to the gearbox and further back to the universal joint from there it oozes onto the road. We made up a ring of aluminium and screwed it to the end of the uni joint housing with a ring of felt compressed therein but as the position of the bell is not constant , it travels fore and aft with spring movement , our modification was a failure. Behind the pinion I have only seen a Timken taper bearing used, although early assembly may have been angular contact ball, as were the early CW carrier bearings. An oil slinger in form of a flat disc fitted between the pinion and bearing will retard the pumping action of the crown wheel up the tube, although those models with the later Hyatt flex roller bearing in addition to the pinion roller bearing may welcome the extra oil . Leaving this flex bearing out, it runs directly on the drive shaft, seems to cause no problem. On the front behind the uni joint the cup and cone ball race can be changed to a Timken taper roller type , the early type adjusted with shim pack for preload, the later torque tube has the bell screwed for preload adjustment and is easier to work with. Some restorers have replaced the plain bearing at rear of the gearbox with INA needle roller bearings and an oil seal. Happy Hupping Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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G,day Huppers. Phil, Your home made jig will work perfectly. You have the later type torque tube with screwed on ball. I would not use the paper gasket as in time it will chafe out. Loctite 515 ,although expensive will seal the joint. The old Cessnock Motor Works were I was an apprentice in the 1950s had a Weaver axle jig, a magic piece of equipment. When General Motors Holden ordered the shop modernised in the early 1960s it went to the tip with other wonderful pieces. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I'm going to chime in about the Type OO grease.

Type O is commonly known as John Deere corn head grease.

It's a flowable grease which has much less tendency to leak out of the gear boxes on combine corn heads.

Type OO is even more "liquid" and is very much like 600 weight oil.

I use Type O in my Dodge transmission which is still a crash box but not QUITE as bad.

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I think I have the differential set up correctly. You may recall that I used Timken taper bearings. These are narrower than the original thrust bearings, so shims are needed to remove side play (thrust). Of course, things are always more complex than we imagine. First, the Timken outer race fits the Hupp casting well... except the Hupp has a slight taper starting about half way down the casting. The original race was a press fit, but the Timken requires adjustment with shim stock. Therefore, I got the Hupp casting machined so I had parallel sides. Next, I discovered the Timken bearing is not flat at the bottom; the shim touching it has to have a larger I.D. so as not to rub. Finally, the bottom shim has to have the outer edge relieved because the differential casting had a slight lip. Next, I discovered the original ring gear has a .015" curve. Here is a photo showing how it reads with a dial indicator gauge. Each dot represents .005" extra height; the teeth with no marks read "zero" on the gauge.

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This required me to "average" the backlash setting between the ring (crown) gear and pinion. I used about 4 shims under the bearing to raise the ring gear enough to get the setting close to .010". Next, I set the thrust by removing the drive shaft and its pinion gear. After securing the differential halves with 3 bolts, I screwed down the three set screws in the diff. housing (now Allen screws) until the ring gear had a slight drag. I then added shims to match the screw depth. After several tries, we used a screwdriver to check that there was no play in the setting. All looks well. My next step is to re-assemble the differential with a little "Right Stuff" sealant.

The next photo shows how I gauged the backlash. I set the gauge on the pinion rather than the ring gear, which seemed to work OK.

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Another thing I discovered: wait until you get all these settings before you install the grease seals. The frequent removal and replacement of the axle unit messed up my new inner seals.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Phil

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Pulled my front wheels and found the right wheel bearings were replaced. The left wheel bearings look original (on right in photos). The replacements seem to fit, but shims were used. As you can see from the photos, the new ones are shorter. The "new" bearings are Timken 05075 (small) and Bower 15590 (large). The "original" bearings are stamped "1550" (small) and "M1" (large). Has anyone a suggestion for a closer match?

Phil

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I don't believe tapered roller bearings were ever used as original equipment on Hupp Model 20's. I'd guess you have an old attempt to replace the original ball bearings, in the "older" set on the right....BUT WAIT.....

In fact, I just looked in the Model 20 parts list, and they list both "ball" and "roller" bearings for the front hub. In addition, they list the "cone" also, so there were indeed tapered roller bearings available. Well, shut my mouth, I corrected my own post...

All the part numbers listed are Hupp sequential numbers (hub, ball, 953B; hub, roller, 953 and so forth) so wouldn't help find replacements.

When I converted my spindles to roller from ball, just took measurements and found the bearings that would fit with minor work, any bearing shop will have books with dimensions, or you can get online, so bearing numbers aren't needed..

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I had ball bearings and converted to modern tapered roller, do remember there was slight machining to either spindle or hub, or both, to got a good press fit.

If the old bearings are decent, grease and adjust properly, they'll last a long time at 35 miles per hour...

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  • 1 month later...

My rear wheels wouldn't fit over the brake shoes, so I got the brake drums turned down slightly. This seems to have done the job. The machinist was quite conservative, and I think there is enough metal left for safety.

My rear wheels now go on fairly easily without the keys, but are very tight with the keys in place. How tight a fit should the rear hubs fit onto the axles? I thought I'd ask before I start hammering.

Phil

Edited by MochetVelo (see edit history)
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Guest Edgar Bowen

Hi Phil, regarding your question about how tight rear wheel hubs should fit on the axle, the answer is very tight if they are tapered axles. They are not hammered on but drawn on with the nut being tightened up. However don't do that without having a puller to get them off again, one that screws onto the hub cap thread with a bolt through the middle that screws against the end of the axle.

If your axles are straight ended and the hub is held on by a pin through the axle. The tightness will be a light tap on fit with a wood mallet. In either case make sure there is a small gap between the top of the key and the hub. In other words the tightness must be on the sides of the key and I wouldn't have it too tight either.

Edgar

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm replacing the camshaft assembly on the Hupp. I see the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear have alignment marks. Trouble is, I can't see if I aligned the two gears correctly after the assembly is in place. Any suggestions on how to do this?

Also, the cam assembly gasket thickness determines the backlash of these two gears. How much backlash should I aim for?

I think this is a new fiber gear, as it's assembled with Allen bolts.

Phil

Photo shows alignment punch. I marked it with white.

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Hi Phil,

Mine is marked on the teeth opposite to where the camshaft gear and crankshaft gear align. Because you have marked a "valley", the opposite spot should be the tip o a tooth I think. These marks can then be set in relation to the centre punch marks on the camshaft housing where the magneto gear cover bolts on. My marks were actually out by 2 teeth and we had to check the valve timing looked right at various settings before deciding what the final position must be. In terms of gasket thickness / backlash, I just used some normal gasket paper and it seems to work ok but there is some detailed discussion on this point somewhere on this forum which I will try and find.

You must be getting close!!

Cheers,

Andrew.

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I've been studying it, and the two gears are visible if viewed from the rear. I'm going to paint the aligning teeth yellow so I can see them from this position. I'll post a photo if it works. The old gasket was .066", compressed from .118". I'm trying a cork .121" gasket with some sticky sealant.

Phil

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I made a white mark next to the crankshaft timing gear alignment mark. As long as I didn't turn the crankshaft, it should be OK. I then made a similar mark on the back of the fiber gear. After assembly, the two marks were just visible when viewed from the rear. I hope the marks are correct. I guess I can check with piston TDC and valve travel. After tightening the bolts on the camshaft unit, there was no detectable backlash on the fiber gear, and the flywheel turns easily, so I hope it will work. I also didn't get any gasket sealant on the other side of the cork gasket, so I'm hoping it doesn't leak.

Phil

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G,day Huppers. Phil, cork tends to be compressible, a feature that you do not want here. Perhaps a shim plate cut from 1/16 th aluminium sheet and fine tuned with paper gaskets might save time later as I have found that each time in the future that the cap screws are tightened the backlash will be reduced and as there needs be minimum to start with , say 2 to 4 thou there is not much margin for gasket compression. Although I have not seen one I suspect that your fibre gear has a steel hub to fit the camshaft? The one piece Phosper bronze gear on each of our cars is quite noisy at certain speeds when under load ,at least that is where we think the noise comes from. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

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Phil The camshaft side plate is very different from mine - To change the camshaft gear on my car the camshaft bearings have to be melted out and then redone once the new gear is inserted. It looks like form your photos that you can change the gear without doing any of this -That would be nice ! -Karl

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Guest Edgar Bowen

Phil, the camshaft has to be melted out if you want to change the timing gear and the home hobbyist can do it. It's a real fun job and I mean it, giving an immense feeling of satisfaction when complete. This is how it is done take my word for it.

You will need the following tools: 1 portable propane gas cylinder with cooking top, or camping propane cooker; 1 cast iron ladle with a long handle; one cast iron animal glue pot or similar container to melt the babbit metal in; 1 infra red pyrometer to measure the heat of the side plate (costs around $120 and essential); hand held propane blow torch; old engine cylinder head in which to put threaded rods to support the side plate which needs to be about 6 inches above the cylinder head so it can be heated from underneath; oxy-acetylene welder to heat the side plate evenly to a temperature of around 190 degrees celsius; diesel grade babbit(white metal); nickel anti-seize extreme temperature lubricant spray can; 2 steel jigs to hold the camshaft in place and six aluminium jigs to contain the molten metal. Making the latter is time consuming and that is where the expense lies. The critical issue is in lubricating the camshaft journals. Where most operators fail including tradesmen, is ending up with a seized journal next to the timing gear. This is because of the mass of cast iron in the side plate at the timing gear end. When the side plate cools down, there is more shrinkage here than around the other three journals. The secret and simple remedy is to wrap two layers of newspaper around this offending journal held in place by the lubricant!

If you or anyone else would like to have a go I will send details on how to make the jigs using cardboard patterns. If you do the job yourself the financial outlay including white metal and pyrometer but not the heating devices and other tools will be say $400. If you need a new camshaft because the old lobes are badly worn, they are obtainable in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Cost wise, if you get a tradesman to do the job, 'how long is a piece of string?' My knowledge and experience cost nothing.

All the best

Edgar

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Edgar I did get a tradesman to do it -However your instructions saved the day. He initially tried sooting the journals before pouring but couldn't get adequate clearance so he did it again with your instructions and achieved a perfect result. He has a specialist business restoring veteran and vintage engines form all round the world and has been doing this successfully for many years but was very impressed with your newspaper trick -Karl

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Edgar Bowen
In my Hupp 20, the exhaust pipe is attached to the manifold with a brass nut, but there is no gasket or fitting to seal the joint. How airtight should this connection be?

Phil

Hi Phil, there is no gasket but I use exhaust cement to make sure gasses don't leak out at the joint which should be a tight fit. Be aware when using non original parts that some brass nuts have a different thread from that on the exhaust manifold.

Edgar

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  • 1 month later...

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