1927 Moon 660 Roadster (with updated pics)

Here's the pics of the Moon finally. I believe only Bernie (oldcar) in Austrlia may get excited about this one. i purchased it several years ago, but I am just now getting it started. All the wood is gone except for about 50 percent for patterns. Sheetmetal is actually real nice with only surface rust. Heavy surface rust. Frame and front and rear suspension looks quite solid.

All opinions welcome.

Dave

Dave, that brownish metal brings back memories of rust dust. All kidding aside, it looks mostly there. How much of the hardware is missing? Is there good club support for the Moon? I don't recall ever having seen one in the flesh. Plenty of fun ahead. Be sure to keep everything posted.

Dave, looks to be a nice project for you. Do I see hydraulic brakes on the rear? Do you know the model you have? The metal actually looks great, even has some paint on some of them. Keep us posted for sure.

Looks like a great project for a very brave man, looking forward to progress updates.

Hello JustDave I see that you posted that all opinions are welcome. Personally I think that you have the makings of a great project and it is irrelevant how long you have had it or how long you intend to work on it as long as you are getting enjoyment out of it. My current project is a 1917 Series 18 Studebaker roadster and when I started some on it years ago I had much less than what you are starting with. For what it is worth a number of people had it before me and gave up. I persisted with it because I like the shape and era of the vehicle. I cannot believe the luck I have had in finding missing parts including reuniting parts of the original car which had been separated many years ago. I regularly check E-Bay America for little items that are not available here in Australia and have nothing but praise for the e-bayers I have dealt with in obtaining a whole host of small missing bits. The project is a couple of years away from completion but it will be completed because I enjoy working on it and making every part as near as possible to when it was manufactured. Perhaps it is taking longer than necessary because this is how I want to do it and if I'm not happy with something I will do it again until I am. I have spent money on it but it has not been excessive. I think that as long as you are doing it for yourself and not looking to sell it off for what ever reason the time taken should not bother you or any one else. All the best with your project.

[hello everyone

thanks for all the imput,i havent gotten to far yet,i had the cowl sand blasted,what a mistake that was,they warped it rear bad,it needed lower patches anyway they just caused me alot of extra work,ive never been a fan of sand blasting sheet metal so i guess it was my own fault,but in my own defense they came highly recommended as being the best,oh well onward and upward, im trying to get the chassic apart in the next couple of weeks once the frame is cleaned and primed and the sheetmetal is cleaned and primed i can start on the woodwork,that should be exciting i havent done any wood work in 30 years,i still have all my body tools and mechanic tools but the wood working tools i still have to purchae,i guess a good table saw and band saw should do most of it i hope , will keep everyone posted on the progress,all opinions welcome

talk to everyone soon dave

Just Dave,

It seems there are always setbacks when one engages in projects like yours. With dedication and persistence, problems do somehow get worked out. Don't be overwhelmed by the enormity of the task, divide it into sub tasks, and concentrate on them one at a time. Try to do something to advance it as often as possible. Keeping at it is what gets the job done, (but know when to knock off before things go wrong and get screwed up!). For inspiration, hang a picture of a restored Moon roadster over your work bench.

Please keep us informed, we'll be cheering you on.

Just me, but I would skip touching the chassis right now. I would instead, clean and repair the main body sheetmetal so the wood can be done first.

I've seen so many abandoned projects with a shiney painted/rebuilt chassis, and then they get overwhelmed with the wood rebuild.

To do the wood in the body, it won't matter if the chassis is not clean and painted. it will get scratched anyways.

Once the main body is together and looks like roadster, the chassis work will look like a piece of cake, and the project won't stall.

If you have most of the car, I think it's a very worthwhile car to tackle. I was looking at the Moon/Wordpress site at all the pics they have. They all look great, no matter what year or body style.

thanks guys

i know itll be a big project i knew it when i started it,i figured id get the chassic apart and cleaned and primed first so i can build a mobile stand under it to move it around,the sheetmetal im not sure what to do, im thinking about soaking it in clr and see how that does,i know the wood work will be a major task but have no other choice but tackle it and get it done,once the wood work and the body is primed and assembled like fj said it should go pretty easy,the sheetmetal and mechanical doesnt scare me the woodwork is something else but i have 2 other cars waiting so i better start learning,the car i will say is about 90 95 % complete,small parts missing like 1 hubcap 1 cowl light little stuff,i know the distributor housing is broken and so on,i believe everything takes just and effort,i try and do little things from time to time

to get a little ahead down the road,another question i have is there something i can soak the gauge cluster in that wont damage things or destroy the gauge faces also some one asked about the brakes i believe ther lockheed 4 wheel hydraulic, the moon is a model 660 i believe it was the cheapest model in 1927 the bigger one was the diana i believe all opinions appreciated dave

[hello everyone

not much to report today,found 3 of the hubcaps for the wood wheels amoungst the boxes of parts,am going to soak them in some vinegar and see if i can get years of tarnish off before straightning and polishing,these are aluminum so shouldnt be a big job,removed the headlights and taillights,sprayed some more rust penetrant in the cylinders,will try to get the head off this week to see what im in for,not trying to jump around on different projects working conditions are a little tough right now, all opinions welcome dave

Hello everyone

after a week of oiling, tapping, oiling & tapping I was finally able to get a putty knife between the block and head. Once up enough, I sprayed the old faithful 50- 50 mix of kerosene and automatic trans fluid between the block and head. Then I sprayed the mixture consistently around the head bolt studs. More tapping. I noticed a raised boss on each side of the head about 4 inches back from front and from rear.

I then took a small 2x4 and tapped the bosses,got the head up about 3/4 of and inch then tapped it back down, greased the studs again and started the process with the 2x4 again. Finally and inch then and inch and a half and finally about

8 o'clock last night I got the head off. Head looks remarkably clean in the chambers.

The cylinders in the block on number 2 and number 4 cylinder have about 2 inches of crap in them. Found no signs of a head gasket. I don't know if it deteriorated or someone had the head off and set it back on without the gasket. I am going to clean the cylinders with a scotch brite pad and then vacuum them out. I will put the 50/50 mixture in the cylinders and around the valves and cover it up for the time being. Its time to get the sheetmetal cleaned and primed up so I can start the wood work. See attached photos of the cylinders, here in so calif its hard to find a machine shop with a hot tank but I don't believe there's any other way of getting the block clean,got home from work tonite cleaned and vacuumed the cylinders and filled them with 50/50 mixture

[ATTACH=CONFIG]196816[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]196817[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]196818[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]196819[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]196820[/ATTACH]

Remember all opinions welcome

and thanks for looking Dave

Am I the only one who can't open the attachments?

Am I the only one who can't open the attachments?

No. They don't work for me, either.

hay guys and gals

sorry about the pics they where up right after I posted them will try later to get them up thanks dave

Sorry about the last pics my computer skills aren't great aren't very good either

landman and keiser sorry about the pics being a no show as you can see the cylinders are pretty rusty,am going to finish filling the cyls with the 50/50 mixture and let them soak until they leak down,question im going to try and sandblast the sheetmetal myself

anyone have any ideas on what to use,sand,walnut sheels etc am going to try and not ruin the sheetmetal dave

Certainly no apology necessary. Keep up the good work.

Just a suggestion, If you start at the bottom. remove the oil pan, then the crankshaft, you may find that most of the rust is on top of the pistons. With a little lubrication and some careful tapping, do not hammer directly on the top of the piston, use a block of wood as a drift and the pistons should come out. If you intend to eventually drive the car it should all come apart anyway. If you are thinking that by getting the engine to turn that you can replace the head and start it up GOOD LUCK.

If you are thinking of sand blasting the sheet metal yourself unless you know exactly what you are doing you stand a fair chance of stretching the metal out of shape.

When you finally get around to putting the engine together, Olsons are your best chance of buying a full set of gaskets./www.olsonsgaskets.com

thanks for the heads up on the sand blasting bernie,i kind of got a sour taste for sand blasters after the cowl was done,im going to give it a try on the better parts with less rust and more paint,as far as the motor goes i believe your right about the rust mainly being in the upper part of the motor,ill wait to see if the oil leaks down in the cylinders before trying to get the motor free,also ive thought about what fj said about doing the wood work before disassembling the chassic,id just like to clean the chassic and get some primer on it and then check it for alignment,id hate to do the woodwork and the body fit and find out the frame itself is misaligned,the wood work is still aways off this weekend im going to mc master carr and get the media and start cleaning the sheelmetal and getting it primed,anybody recommend anything better than ppg dp 40 for the primer,again all opinions are welcome

thanks for looking and listening to me ramble dave

This is what I have done to remove stuck pistons.

1 Soak 50/50 acetone/ATF for a few days.

2 Put a block of hard wood on top of the piston.

3 Using a thick chunk of metal that bridges the head bolts.

4 Tighten down with the nuts and washers then tap with a hammer, re tighten, let it sit, tap, repeat

thanks for the heads up on the stuck motor,ive been soaking now for about 2 weeks faithfully,im waiting for the 50/50 mixture to leak by the rings so far no luck,but ive been busy doing other things,a friend and i are building a new gas tank the old one looked like it had been over some rough roads,have the fuel sender soaking in vinegar and baking soda but no luck freeing it up yet,also am soaking the hubcaps to try and get them clean enough to straighten and polish,have 3 will try and find another,also i ordered a fifty pound bag of black beauty blasting media,tried blasting saturday on a fiew parts i dont know if it was operator error or just a poor sandblaster,i have one of those cheap type suction blasters,have plenty of air just couldnt get a constant flow from the blaster,will keep trying at the present time im removing the wood for patterns what there is of it i may end up taking it to get it blasted will post pics soon of my progress,opinions and suggestions always welcome, thanks again dave

If you are in southern California and are against using a sandblaster, I suggest you take your sheet metal and frame to Strip Clean in Santa Ana, CA. Google it. They did some great work on my Rambler sheet metal a few years ago. There's nothing like working with clean rust free metal. Joe

If you are in southern California and are against using a sandblaster, I suggest you take your sheet metal and frame to Strip Clean in Santa Ana, CA. Google it. They did some great work on my Rambler sheet metal a few years ago. There's nothing like working with clean rust free metal. Joe

On your fuel sending unit,try a product like Evapo-Rust.

This stuff will not remove good metal but did take the paint off the gauge face on a rusted gas gauge/float assembly.

If your float assembly has pot metal gears they could have changed shape or split to a point that they will not function.

thanks for the heads up on the stripper.after ready strip left calif i thought all strippers left california,will call them and see if they can help me,also thanks for the heads up on the fuel sender,it is seperate from the dash fuel gaugs,the pot metal may have lost its shape so that may be the reason its frozen,everything on this car has been stuck,i guess this is one car that shouldnt have been restored but now its became a challenge and i like challenges,am going to try soaking the parts while i go on to other things,if i can get the sheetmetal stripped then ill get the chassic primed and start the woodwork

good luck to me wood work of any kind has always been a challenge,all opinions welcome and appreciated dave

There are people that can sandblast the sheet metal without causing distortions. As you've found, however, there are plenty of people that think they can but can't. I've done a good bit of this, both for my old car and for two newer cars, and the biggest single factor is the angle at which the media (be it whatever, sand, shells, etc) hits the surface. A glancing blow does little to stretch the metal. A straight on angle, while fantastic at getting hard to remove rust out of pits, is like a million little body hammers stretching the metal. The person that helped me said to think of trying to peel the rust and paint off by holding the blast nozzle at an angle of less than 45 degrees. Another way of saying it is that it should be a scrubbing action, not a peening process. After completely ruining one panel I was able to finish the others without issue.

I'm very excited to see this project progress. For the woodwork, you might try and find some old-school woodworkers in your area and ask them to help out. If they are anything like me, they would love to help you get set up and show you some tricks. You should be able to find a wood working forum just like the AACA forum and make a post to find someone local to you that can help.

Good luck!!

not much to report on the moon,have a guy in claremont that specializes in old cars going to see if he can sandblast some of the sheetmetal without destroying it,the wife left to take care of her sick brother in tennessee so ive been sending her all my extra money,he passed away last saturday so i guess she will be coming back this week,he was diagnosed with liver and bowel cancer and only lasted about a month,he was retired militard but they dont seem to want to do much to help,oh well we have to take care of family.the cylinders in the moon have been soaking but havent budged,tried taking a wood block and lightly tapping the pistons but no luck ,the engine isnt a priority at this time so just let it soak,in the mean time ive been doing little projects,ive got the head lamps and taillight apart and working on them,question the bezels on the headlamps are chrome so should the taillight bezel be chrome also,all help and opinions appreciated thanks dave

Dave, this is Jeff Buckley from the Moon Car Club. I don't believe that we have talked before but please check out our website www.mooncarclub.com . We have several club members with 6-60 Moons and we have had members that have restored 6-60's. Please contact me at Mooncarclub@gmail.com so we can talk about your project. Jeff Buckley

hello everyone

got some time to work on the moon,removed frt fenders bumpers aprons etc,now its down to the chassic,will get the engine and suspension out soon,am going to have the frame sandblasted and get some dp40 sealer on it then build a rolling stand and get started on the wood work,was surprised to see snubber frt shocks on it in the front nothing in the rear,the frame seems to be quite solid checked for any buckles but found nothing,when i bring the frame to the shop i will put it on the machine and do a laser measure on it just to make sure everything is ok,the hydraulic brake system is very primitive hope i can find necessary parts to repair, also the engine has had a mixture of atf & kerosene for months but still stuck tight,i think i may try the reverse electrolisis for a week or so in the future to see if i can get it free, will post some pics this evening showing progress all opinions welcom

thanks dave

hello all

well I finally had time to get all the sheetmetal apart,2 questions first im going to soak the sheetmetal in molasses and water can I use the powdered molasses or does it half to be the liquid,second question what do I use between the new wood and the sheetmetal,is there a tape or fabric to use,am going to build the wood frame out of pine first then after its fitted ill redo it in ash, all help appreciated dave

Hi JustDave. most bodies had a layer of thin felt on the wood to prevent or at least reduce squeaks from the sheet metal rubbing against the wood structure.

Have you tried the 'scotch-brite' type sanding pads on the sheet metal? I like to use this type of sanding pad on the flat, larger sections of sheet metal, and save the sandblaster for the nooks, crannies, corners and seams. You can control the heat buildup with the rotary pads, and this will prevent distortion of the flat, or larger panels..

I've also used Muriatic acid [from swimming pool chemical section at Home Depot] Us this stuff outside ONLY, Brush it on the rusty metal, the rust will disappear. Use plenty of water, and then a slury of baking soda/water brushed on to finish neutralizing the acid.. then oil the metal, or paint it.. it will rust again OVERNIGHT.

For the engine, TAKE THE PAN OFF !! remove the connecting rod caps, You should be able to move the crankshaft some. Then, use a long wooden stick, one end cut in a curve to match the wrist pin boss on the piston, put the curved end alongside the rod, up inside the piston, and GENTLY tap on the piston up, then from the top of the piston back down..

I've used a propane torch many times from below to heat a piston, with the ATF/mix on top of the piston. The heat/cooling cycle will get the ATF to soak in much faster.

With the crankshaft loose from the connecting rods and pistons, any persuasion on one piston will not be transmited through the crankshaft to the other pistons and rods.. You don't wnat to use the top of ONE piston to move all SIX pistons !! And you might find that the crankshaft does not move easily either. I't trying to turn the timing chain, oil pump, camshaft, valves in the rusted valve guides etc.. Separate everything, then work on one piston/rod at a time.. you will have success much quicker.

GLong

hello glong,thanks for the heads up on the felt,i never considered the squeaks just about condensation between the metal and wood,as far as the motor goes I think ill drop it in the barrel of molasses and see what happens,nothing ventured nothing gained,will keep everyone interested in the progress as I go along informed,for now im just working the wood and sheetmetal,a good tip from f.j. was don't try and do everything at once the wood should be done dirst so as not to stall the resto, thanks to everyone for there assistance and advise will keep everyone posted on the progress dave

I could be wrong but I think if you drop the motor into a molasses solution it will eat away anything that is not steel ie. ally pistons, white metal bearings, cam bearings, brass bushes etc.

I have even seen pictures of a couple of Flathead Ford engine blocks which were dunked for a long time and must have been poor castings, severly pitted by molasses.

thanks davidau

but I don't think ill have any other alternative,its been soaking in the cylinders(50-50 kerosene and atf) and it hasn't dripped thru yet,i believe ill take off what I can and drop the motor in at least 2 weeks and just try and determine if the rust is dissolving,the motor has sat since the late 40s with no spark plugs,it took a couple of weeks just to get the head off,i cleaned around the head studs and soaked the studs everynight then took a block of wood and tapped the head up and down and resoaked it then up and down until finally moved,patience is not one of my virtues so sometimes I have to just walk away before I break something,i guess one small step at a time will get it done,just hoping I can save the block even if it means sleeving all cylinders,thanks everyone for the help dave

Hi can you email me I'am also restoring a 1927 moon roadster. Atrepanier@live.com

Here is a thought on freeing stuck pistons. In the past I have used straight Iodine. May sound strange, but I got the strongest concentration possible and filled the cylinder. Four days later I was able to loosen the piston. I have done this 3 times with success. Don't ask me why it works, I really don't know.

Dan

I read somewhere years ago about someone who poured boiling water into a block several times and it expanded the block just enough to let the penetrant in. Might be worth a try.

Howard Dennis

hello everyone

I appreciate all the advice but the mixture of kerosene and atf has been in the cylinders about a year now and hasn't leaked down,the car sat in central calif from about 1948 until 2000 without any plugs or any cover on the motor,i believe when I get the wood work straightened out ill put the motor in reverse electrolysis for a week or 2 and see what happens,ive managed to get the cowl straightened out and some of the sheetmetal cleaned up,as soon as the sheetmetal is done and primed im going to start the woodwork,in calif the ash is hard to find,my buddy in Illinois had a trailer full but was told he couldn't bring it in from out of statebecause of a beetle problem, thanks dave