HPOF question

seems a mouse made a home in my headliner and left me with a hole near the sun visor. my question is to secure HPOF award should i cover the unsightly hole with tape or leave the damage visable. i am under the understanding that replacing the headline would count against me towards an HPOF award.

what's your thought on this?

Leaving the hole open or neatly covering it would not be a deduction. Replacing the headliner would be a deduction, but one deduction would not keep you from receiving a HPOF certification. It would depend on how many other deductions you have and a replaced headliner would add to that total.

Preservation should mean just that, to "preserve" the car in an original state.

I believe that if a part is damaged or breaks on an HPOF car for what ever reason, you are allowed to repair it as long as it is repaired to look original.

If I were you, I would send an email to the AACA judges to see what options you have. You may want to include photos of the damaged area. lgawel@aaca.org (Lynn Gawel) is listed under HQ AACA contacts for Vehicle Awards and would be a good start to get in touch with the right person.

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Vila

1933 Chevrolet

1962 Triumph TR4

1984 BMW 633 CSi

Actually,

I would not bother Lynn with that question. The person to ask would be the chairman of the HPOF Committee. The website lists Roger Irland as Chairman - HPOF this year. I don't have his contact information. Lars Anderson was previously the Chairman of the HPOF Committee. His email address is larco257@aol.com.

I will be happy to give you the benefit of what I learned taking the HPOF CJE Class from Lars in the past.

You could receive a deduction for the condition of the headliner if it has a hole in it. If you replace the headliner you face a significantly larger deduction. If it is possible to neatly repair the hole in the original headliner with identical appearing material, that would be considered maintenance, which is allowed.

To summarize, you are better with the hole than with a new replacement headliner. If you can repair it neatly, that might eliminate a deduction, but the deduction that you will receive for the hole is a minor deduction, which by itself will certainly not interfere with an HPOF certification.

Thomas, for what its worth, my 1947 Dodge D25 daily-driver had several holes in the headliner and sun visor cover that a previous owner repaired with like fabric (photo 2), and this scruffy heap successfully achieved HPOF status at Hershey 2010.

Matt, my understanding of HPOF is different than yours. I took the judges training at Hershey 2010, and while I have not judged since, my understanding was that the presence of original finishes, materials and components is paramount, but their condition, deteriorated or otherwise, is irrelevant.

As an example, my Dodge would probably lose maximum points in any evaluation of cosmetic condition — see photos. If it were possible to achieve a negative score, this car would do it. What I did lose points for, however, was a repaint (in 1975) and plastic (not metal) valve stem covers. There may have been more items, but these are the ones I know.

Someone mention my name?.....Given that we don't take points off in HPOF evaluation, it's either original or it's not. We should be looking at the whole picture much like we talk about in class judging that we only take the full point deduction if the item is not authentic, missing or in a condition that it's unable to perform it's function. Patching a hole doesn't make the headliner non-original, and if it can be done very carefully, it should not warrant a check mark. At some point, a badly deteriorated headliner would fail as it no longer tells the story of its' original material and construction.

RogerPHX,

Welcome to the Discussion Forum. This question has come up a few times in the past. It seems that over the past few years, some inconsistent information has come up from time to times in CJE's on HPOF. From my personal observation, the question of what level of "maintenance" is allowed without reaching the point of the dreaded "check mark" seems to be difficult for the average owner to decipher. The "unable to perform it's function" seems to be a shadowy area to understand as it applies to HPOF.

In my own case, the question is do you leave a dented fender with original paint, or do you have it repaired and blend the paint carefully. I have chosen to leave the dented fender as it is.

Let me begin by saying, I was a big fan of HPOF at its' inception, and when the year cut-off of 35 years was instituted my Plymouth was there!

As the class has evolved, I am considering removing my Plymouth from HPOF. First, as in this discussion, I feel that too many later model "clunkers" are recently achieving HPOF status, most likely due to mixed information given to evaluators. Yes, if items have passed their point of servicability, what does it offer the restorer per originality? Any back-row used car or operable junk yard dog 25 years old could be considered for HPOF. When I see a daily driven clunker that is 25+ years old on the highway, I jokingly say to myself, "Oh, that's HPOF".

As for the Bamford Dodge above, I remember the car at Hershey. I was all over it, it's awesome, and should be commended for being driven from Edmonton. I hope it's still going strong. Although I thought it better suited for DPC.

On the other side of the coin, are many vehicles displayed in HPOF that should be considered in class judging. I recall parking next to a beautiful Ford product recently in Hershey considered for HPOF. If I'd had a dollar for everyone who commented he was wasting his time in HPOF, my registration would have been covered. It was a definite shoe-in for 1st Jr/Sr. Also that cute little imported SUV at Hershey, too good for HPOF. But I guess it's the owner's choice.

With entrants in HPOF at extreme ends of the spectrum, it seems the HPOF definition has become increasingly clouded.

...As for the Bamford Dodge above, I remember the car at Hershey. I was all over it, it's awesome, and should be commended for being driven from Edmonton. I hope it's still going strong. Although I thought it better suited for DPC...

Thanks for your kind words. The Dodge is still going strong, and is now my daily driver. I lapsed the insurance on my modern in February and transferred it to the Dodge. A year ago last weekend we drove it to Tuktoyaktuk in Canada's high arctic over the frozen MacKenzie River and Beaufort Sea. This old heap earns its keep — photos below are bringing home a new 16' garage door and carrying a big load of giveaway to the SallyAnn.

One could think of it as a different sort of HPOF... Historical Preservation of Historical Functionality. I treat it like the well used car it is. When this sort of car was 10 years old few people would question driving it in winter, parking it outside, doing hundreds of miles on gravel, screwing that car top carrier to the roof or filling the back seat with giveaway clothes. For me, its all part of the vintage motoring experience.

And not to belabour the point, but I just reviewed the HPOF judging form at page 61 of http://www.aaca.org/images/meet_brochures/2013_Judging_Guidelines.pdf and saw no mention of condition of components, only if they were original.

Matthew; There are two ways to approach your question. One is that our cars were first and foremost bought new to be used as transportation. Thus, they needed normal maintenance, and were subject to some wear and tear. The conscientious original owner would have taken care of the occasional scrape or ding, so if you're able to repair your fender and carefully blend in new paint, that shouldn't warrant a check mark. The other approach is to think along the lines of the conservator of fine, rare old master paintings. They can do amazing things to bring back the original work without disturbing the artists' original expression. If we can do that with our cars, we will be able to preserve all that they can teach us. Cheers, Roger Irland HPOF Chair

Would radial tires disqualify an otherwise original 1971 Ford with about 20,000 miles from HPOF?

no

Radial tires on car that didn't have the option from the factory would cost two checkmarks. If that is the only area of non-compliance, it would not prevent you from getting your HPOF certification. Roger Irland HPOF Chair

Thanks

Edited April 18, 2013 by 31 HUPMOBILE (see edit history)

But keep in mind, vehicles that didn't come with radials as an option aren't built to have them. There have been several discussions on these forums of the hazards of putting radial tires on non-radial wheels. And putting radial wheels/rims and radial tires on vehicles that weren't built to have them.

when will these myths die? I have driven well over 250k miles on mid 60s to early 70s cars using radial tires on the stock rims .

My wife purchased this car from her dad several years ago, and he purchased the car new at the dealership I worked in. He had replaced the tires with radials because the tire store had them in stock and recomended them. He was afraid the original tires were dry rotted and not safe. The reason for the question about radials on HPOF cars is I cannot spend out about a thousand dollars for the correct tires now. This will be the first time we have registered a car in an AACA show. We would like to show the car at the Auburn show because it is reasonably close to home. We have had the car in small local shows in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and she has many trophys. This car also was the 1971 car at the Ford Centennial, and was parked in front of the world headquarters during the celebration. She also has a poster from the Detroit Free Press with the car along with the other 100 vehicals. The 1971 Maverick Grabber only has about 21,000 miles and other than tires and maintenance items is original. My wife is very proud of her Maverick and hopes it will show well.

Question for Roger? Does a full repaint disqualify an otherwise original car from HPOF or HPOF Original status?

Mickey

when will these myths die? I have driven well over 250k miles on mid 60s to early 70s cars using radial tires on the stock rims .

Ted, by the time I posted that about radials being on cars that didn't come with them I had forgotten that he was talking about a 1971 Ford because I hit the button to look at the newest posts so it skipped over that one. I looked at the car in his AVATAR photo and thought that was the car he was talking about. There have been several discussions on here about putting radial tires on those earlier vehicles and it has been explained why it is not a good idea. MCHinson (Matt) can probably find those threads quickly.

This thread has had a bunch of different questions in it. It is getting potentially confusing. Hopefully Roger will see Mickey's question because I know that others want to see the "official" answer to that question.

Ted,

This is the link that I found through a quick search regarding potential problems with Radial Tires mounted on wheels that were not designed for them.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=c81177253a52b296f324af540b3d8eea&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.aaca.org%2Ff121%2Frules-tires-326746.html&v=1&libid=1366982533997&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sema.org%2Ffiles%2Fattachments%2FWTC-2011-05-Bias-vs-Radial-Tire-Wheel-Fitment.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.aaca.org%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D179269&title=rules%20for%20tires&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sema.org%2Ffiles%2Fattachment...el-Fitment.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13669825800974

......He was afraid the original tires were dry rotted and not safe.

Good reason to replace them!

The reason for the question about radials on HPOF cars is I cannot spend out about a thousand dollars for the correct tires now. This will be the first time we have registered a car in an AACA show. We would like to show the car at the Auburn show because it is reasonably close to home. We have had the car in small local shows in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, and she has many trophys. This car also was the 1971 car at the Ford Centennial, and was parked in front of the world headquarters during the celebration. She also has a poster from the Detroit Free Press with the car along with the other 100 vehicals. The 1971 Maverick Grabber only has about 21,000 miles and other than tires and maintenance items is original. My wife is very proud of her Maverick and hopes it will show well.

Hup, have your wife show this car and be proud. Whether it has the correct tires or not will not subdue the fun of competing in an AACA National Meet! Let her and the spectators enjoy seeing that Maverick on the showfield! By the way, having some literature about the car's history shown will bring in more interested spectators too that may be curious.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne

We plan on being in Auburn for the show. I will have my wife bring some history of the car also.

By the way my middle name is also Wayne.

.....

Ted,

This is the link that I found through a quick search regarding potential problems with Radial Tires mounted on wheels that were not designed for them.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=c81177253a52b296f324af540b3d8eea&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.aaca.org%2Ff121%2Frules-tires-326746.html&v=1&libid=1366982533997&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sema.org%2Ffiles%2Fattachments%2FWTC-2011-05-Bias-vs-Radial-Tire-Wheel-Fitment.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.aaca.org%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D179269&title=rules%20for%20tires&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sema.org%2Ffiles%2Fattachment...el-Fitment.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13669825800974

Matt, thank you for finding that. You are the best "searcher".

I own a 1977 AMC Hornet that was delivered with 14 inch bias ply tires. The original owner had 14 inch Michelin radials installed. My mother was the 2nd. owner. The radials were a dealer installed option that was factory approved. I know. I did the research. If the wheels were NOT capable of handling radials then, the factory would not have approved radials. My thoughts are that cars built in the 70tys era will be okay with radials. I installed Michelin radials on a 1971 Volkswagen Super Beetle, a 1967 VW Microbus, a 1966 VW Bug. a 1955 VW Bug, and a 1963 Karmann Ghia and NEVER had any problems with tires, or wheels.

As for HPOF with radials my 1963 Karmann Ghia is a HPOF certified vehicle, and it has radials. This car was a non-export model that was purchased in Germany by the original owners, and it came with Michelin radials. I have the documentation in German to back this up. When I received my HPOF certification at Hershey in 2003 the HPOF team did not ask about the tires. Leads me to believe that tires may not be that important on HPOF and DPC vehicles. No one ever asked about the radials on the 1977 Hornet when it appeared in DPC. Just my observations and opinion, as usual.

Keep in mind that radials were developed in Europe in 1957. It took many years for the USA to catch up with our friends in Europe.

I probably should add that I use radial tire tubes on the 1955 Bug and 1963 Karmann Ghia because these wheels do not have the wheel safety lip cast into them. The safety lip as I call it helps to seal the tire bead to the wheel. This lip keeps the tire from twisting off the wheel when subjected to hard cornering.