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I Must be doing something wrong


38Buick 80C

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Ok so got a pertronix ignitor system for the 38 RM back at Hershey last year. Finally installed it and I have no spark. So I did something wrong. I have one on my Charger and it work great and was easy.

So first off I got an 1183N6 which is a Delco early 8 cyl 6v Neg ground...supposedly

Installed everything per instructions...supposedly

Wires to the coil red to pos black to neg...definitely

No spark..determined by timing light on a plug wire to see if the light lights up. Put it on the coil wire too and would get one quick light up of the timing light then nothing.

Checked the wires to the coil again...all there all tight.

So what have I done wrong.

Yes I get photos posted soon

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Every single one of these that has ever come into my garage (Pertronix electronic ignition systems on old cars) has given problems and not worked properly. I have removed every one that has ever been through here--with owner's permission of course--no more problems. I have had nothing but bad experiences with them, they never work properly, they cause more problems than they solve, and I will never, ever install one on an old car that I own or that someone else owns. Period! End of argument. Stay away from them. What is wrong with the original distributors and their points and spark systems? They work fine as long as you replace them after 10,000 to 12,000 miles,which for most antique cars is a long, long time.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

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And now for the flip side to that coin. I have Pertronics units in all 6 of my collector cars. The oldest 15 years the newest 2 years. They've all worked perfectly from the word "go" and continue to be trouble and maintenence free. In fact when I do an engine rebuild it has a Pertronix unit in it for the initial start up. I will never screw around with points again..................Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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Yes rotor under the cap. I promise photos soon.

Like I said I have one in my 69 Charger was easy to installed worked great and has worked great for 15 years. So that's why i got one for the Buick, points are fine I agree, but I had a good experience with the Pertronix and no headaches for 15 years so why not. Anyway going to take photos now.

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Assuming the wire I see peeking out under the red wire on the coil is +6V from the ign switch everything looks correct. When I said "rotor" I mean the dist roror not the units rotor. Just sayin. Next I'd check for voltage to the coil then double check for correct #unit.........Bob

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I've also had excellent experience with a 12V Pertronix unit installed for 12 years in our recently sold '66 Mustang...

I'm wondering if the voltage drop via the ballast resister to the coil is too great for this 6V Pertronix unit. After all, the module is being powered from the '+' side of the coil.

I believe this is being fed from the ignition switch through the ballast resister (or resister wire)...

I'm out of my league: Did Buick even use a ballast resister or resister wire on late 30s ignition systems???

Either way, try 'hotwiring' a direct feed from the '+' side of the coil to the positive battery terminal. This way you 'll know that you have a full 6 volts powering the Pertronix unit.

Use an alligator clip on at least one end so if the engine starts, you can easily stop it...!

My gut has a strong suspicion about this 6V Pertronix unit needing a full 6 volts to work at all...

Paul

Edited by pfloro (see edit history)
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Guest wildcat465

Yep, Pertronix needs full voltage to the unit for it to work effectively. Brian, you need full battery voltage where the red wire hits the coil.

I installed one on a Buick about 15 years ago, using the factory power wire, ran crappy. Ran a new wire directly to ignition switch, has run very well since.

Have not put one on any of my cars though, probably because I am too cheap.

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I find this an interesting discussion. I have had mixed results with Pertronix. Some worked and some went up in smoke in short order.

I have been driving for 54 years and have had vintage cars for 50 of those years. I have never had problems with point system ignitions - but then I maintained them well.

Why did I try the Pertronix? I just wanted to see if it made any real difference. In my case it didnt.

For a vintage car I am ine the "original points" camp. One thing about points is that if smmething should go wrong, you could probably fix it on the spot (if you know what you are doing). When the Pertronix died I was SOL.

As mentioned, for most vintage cars, 10,000 miles is a long time.

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Several friends have gone to the Pertronics-type units and seem happy - a few have had mixed results.

For myself, I have kept all of our cars as originally equipped. They ran well for tens-, and hundreds of thousands of miles when properly maintained. I do a lot of touring, and know that if I ever have a problem on the road, I can probably adjust, or replace, or find a replacement part. I also carry normal spares in an emergency kit which include belts, hoses, clamps, points, condensor, rotor, cap, wires, plugs, etc. for each car. Yes, I could probably carry a spare electronic unit if I wanted to. And yes, I hear the argument that electronic units such as Pertronics increase fuel mileage and gve a hotter spark, and improve performance. Maybe so, but then so would a Cadillac engine in a Crosley.

I firmly believe that normal maintenance yields normal and dependable performance. I appreciate originality.

I am absolutely not trying to advise anyone else how to deal with their own car. If you feel that modern electronics is something beneficial for you and your car, by all means - do it, but maybe think about carry a spare for something which cannot be repaired or adjusted when you are miles from any other support.

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Brian,

Check voltage again under load, but with a temporary "HOT" lead directly from the battery to the coil. If it stays at 6-volt, then you could add a momentary switch in line to hit onlywhen starting, since it seems to be your starter which is pulling down the voltage.

Best of luck,

Marty

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ok so the thing only installs one way. I took a photo but doesn't matter.

I put the point back in, starts right up.

SOOOO...

The whole reason I was putting in the electronic ignition in the first place is because I am stumbling under load which has been happening since the National meet. When it happened at the national meet the first time I thought it was vapor lock (I mean it was 104). Since the national meet I've replaced the inline fuel filter. I've had the carb rebuilt by a close friend that KNOWS these era Buicks and restores cars for BCA#178. There is only so many things that can it can be, fuel pump, carb, distributor (and vacuum advance), the fuel itself.

I suspect the answer lies either in the distributor or the carb. With the carb rebuilt and the issue still occurring I figured distributor hence the pertronix to "simply" things. Vacuum advance works well test several different ways and with a vacuum pump at different points in the line. I had the distributor rebuilt during the restoration and I may have to borrow one off my dad's 38 RM just to eliminate mine as a suspect as they say on all those crime shows. I'm kind back to the carb as the potential source of the issue and here is why. Upon start up tonight going back to point the exhaust is coming out very black and the car was idling a bit rough. I goofed around some after the car warmed up some and found if I held open the butterfly at the top of the carb it ran much better. So I'm thinking more air compensates for too much fuel and fuel mixture gets better so car runs better. The other thing that is happening just goofing in the garage is I can make the car back fire through the carb or stumble with a quick pull of the throttle rod (like putting the petal to the floor).

A few other misc notes

1. I have an electric fuel pump and a mechanical . The electric has a bypass like with the check valve. The mechanical has no bypass. The electric fuel pump is on a switch and it seems to make no difference when on or off toward remedying the stumble under load.

2. Fuel is regular 87 10% ethanol nothing special but I do have the ethanol formula Stabil in it.

3. The electric fuel pump does work and fills the bowl before I start the car.

So suggestions?

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Brian and anyone who uses these: Throw it in the garbage. Marty Roth and Don Micheletti made the best arguments: If there is a problem with the distributor points, you can almost always fix it on the side of the road. If there is a problem with the Pertronix, you can't fix it on the side of the road--call the tow truck and hire a modern mechanic. You can't even diagnose it--look at all of the suggestions and guesses on this thread.

Not a Buick, but I have a 1963 Chrysler New Yorker that I have owned for 21 years. I put new points, condensor, & rotor in it in 1993--20 years ago, and its 413 is still running perfectly--I took it out yesterday and put 80 miles on it. 20 years beats 15 years mentioned above!

I rest my case. Next case....

Pete Phillips

Edited by Pete Phillips (see edit history)
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Brian, I would try, in this order:

* Insulating your spark plug wires. Get that 3/8 inch plastic wire loam from Walmart and put it over each plug wire. It's cheap and can be eliminated if you ultimately get new wires.

* Too rich, can you put in a smaller jet,

* Are you able to check the timing chain? Maybe it's off one tooth?

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Ok so got a pertronix ignitor system for the 38 RM back at Hershey last year. Finally installed it and I have no spark. So I did something wrong. I have one on my Charger and it work great and was easy.

So first off I got an 1183N6 which is a Delco early 8 cyl 6v Neg ground...supposedly

Installed everything per instructions...supposedly

Wires to the coil red to pos black to neg...definitely

No spark..determined by timing light on a plug wire to see if the light lights up. Put it on the coil wire too and would get one quick light up of the timing light then nothing.

Checked the wires to the coil again...all there all tight.

So what have I done wrong

Yes I get photos posted soon

Something else to ponder, do you have pos.or neg. earth electrics ?

I understand that the Pertronix unit is polarity sensitive and as cars of your era were often pos. earth, do you have it hooked up correctly ?

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Brian, I have noted a couple of times that there is a cork pad under the breaker point plate,I figure you already checked the vacuum advance. I have usually found the pad dry and black or missing from "work done by others". That lack of lubrication and dragging of the plate can cause hesitation. If it was in my garage this morning I would remove the plate and check. If the pad is still there I would liberally soak in with some 40wt oil and gently work it in with my fingers. Once it feels nice and pliable set it back in place. If it is missing just cut a circular pad from this thinnest cork or absorbent gasket paper you can find and soak that as well.

As a test, reassemble with the old points. If this cures the stumbling, depending on the size of your garage, always keep the Petronix set up a minimum of 10 to 20 feet from your car. It should be fine.

Bernie

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Think about what is going on. The car runs with the points and does not with the Pertronix. Obviously the problem is not with the wires, it is not with the plugs, the timing chain doesnt just jump around ( it woulldnt go back to running with just a change back to the points) -- it is with the Pertronix. Listen to what the car is telling you - I just doesnt like the Pertronix.

I do understand your frustration with the stumbling and the Pertronics was an attempt to fix that.

As far as the stumbling, the black says it is running rich. If I were you, I'd get that right first. You say that things get better if you hold the choke open? Is that set right? Is the choke fully open when the engine is warm?

As I was trying to get my choke to work right the car ran rich as heck and smoked. A friend asked if I was burning tires. It did take a while, but I finally got it right. That was 25 years ago and it still is OK.

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... depending on the size of your garage, always keep the Petronix set up a minimum of 10 to 20 feet from your car. It should be fine.

Bernie

or further!

I recently changed points/consdensor (Standard Blue-Streak) and plugs in my Blue/White 55 Century after 28,000 miles. That set replaced the Pertronix that was in for 5,000 miles.

Following is my usual rant about Pertronix:

There is nothing special about installing electronic ignition in a stock distributor. Maybe if you adapted an HEI to your engine you might get the advantage of the larger distributor cap, thicker wires and the ability to install plugs with a wider gap. Any ignition system, electronic or points is just a switch, with electronic only having the advantage of working at high rpm (6,000+).

Also I have had some disasters with the Pertronix unit. It worked (same as stock with no increase in mpg, power or driveability) for 5,000 miles and then my rotor burned. Burned as in it literally caught fire inside the distributor and burned the tip off. The next year a friend had the exact same thing happen. Not heeding those incidents, I put the same unit in another engine with you guessed it... It seems that the carbon rod between the center and tip of a 55 rotor is what burns.

Calls to Pertronix were useless, since they offered no technical support. The original instructions for wiring to the car called for bypassing the resistor on the firewall. This is supposed to result in a hotter spark if used with their 'FlameThrower' coil. Internet research showed new installation instructions: use a stock coil and don't bypass the firewall resistor. I have not tried this and you should not either just to pay for an expensive switch.

Stock points/condensor will last 30,000 miles and will serve you well, just like they did when these old cars were contemporary. I would rather change them when I want to, not in the hot parking lot of a truck stop in Little Rock, AR. I still have the Pertronix and might sell it to someone I don't like, but would not sell or give to a friend.

Willie

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SO MOVING ON (from the pertronix debate)....

Don, no the choke is NOT fully open when the engine is warm. So how did you get it adjusted?

Bernie, I am going to take the distributor off a 38 RM that runs great (so theoretically it has a correctly working distributor) and put it on my car, thus eliminating the distributor as a source of the issue...theoretically. But I'll check what you note on the current distributor)

John D,

I've had the spark plug cover off as I thought the wire might be grounding to the cover, but this seems to make no difference.

Yes I suppose I can get a smaller jet, I'd have to find one.

I did the timing chain myself and was very careful, i don't think it is wrong.

Mr Earl,

I can swap out the coil from another car, but let me work systemically and do one thing at a time, but sure I'll try it.

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SO MOVING ON (from the pertronix debate)....

John D,

I've had the spark plug cover off as I thought the wire might be grounding to the cover, but this seems to make no difference.

The wires can cross fire to a metal ground or among themselves. Run your engine at night, outside where there is no ambient light. Let it go for a few minutes while your eyes adjust to the darkness. If you see even one flash of light amongst the wires then you will want to correct the bad wires before investing time trying to adjust other systems.

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i will say that there was nothing wrong with the point system when these cars were new, or could easily found on used car lots, and there's nothing wrong with using points today. i like the point system so much, i'm going to be using dual points inside my pontiac 287 strato-streak distributor. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

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Brian,

The procedure is in the manual, but that calls for a lot of special tools. So that is of no help.

Setting the choke is kind of a hit or miss situation. You have to get at the bi-metallic spring that is down inside the tube that runs between the carb and exhaust manifold. At the bottom of the bi metallic spring - at least it looks like one except that the coils are flat - there is a set screw. You have to loosen the screw and rotate the shaft that is linked to the butterfly via the flex shaft in a direction that will open your choke butterfly a bit more - at least in your case.

Now, getting at the spring is a bit of work.

Here is what I did. Actually, I just did it on my Special last week. In process of restoration.

You do not have to take the carb off the engine. I am lazy, so I just loosened the nuts on the carb until they are almost off. There are 2 bolts that hold the choke mechanism to the carb. Remove those. You should have enough giggle room to get the choke mechanism out. Then, if you are lucky, the screw I mentioned will loosen so you can make the adjustment. How much to rotate the shaft is the trial and error thing. Make a small change at first.

You have to be careful getting the choke back on. Make sure the gasket is OK. You have to align the operating tang on the choke mechanism with the slot on the carb throttle shaft to get it back on. It really isnt to difficult. just take your time.

Once you have everything together give the car a good run to get the engine up to a good operating temp and see if the choke butterfly is fully open - it should be. If not, give the process another try until the butterfly is fully open.

Since the choke mechanism and bi-metallic spring are old and may not be able to function exactly right, I always opt to have the butterfly open fully at operating temp and live with the fact that it may not do a really good job choking when cold. Since warm operation is more important that is, in my opinion, more important

The advantage of not taking the carb completely off is that you dont have to disconnect the fuel line, vacuum line or throttle rod or cable. Saves a lot of time.

I did mine in less than 1/2 hour.

Good luck. The fact that the carb has been recently rebuilt gives you a better chance that things are not all rusted together.

And, by all means, make just ONE change at a time.

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I can/do fully understand one wanting to stay ORIGINAL.. I wish you well, and I also understand there is GOOD reason points and condensers are not used in today's world. The newer electronics are WONDERFUL...., and BETTER. Cars start faster, run smother, better fuel mileage, and less service, and repair time/cost. IMHO. Others may have a different view, that fine with me.....

Sure all things fail at some point, but like many of you, my car has 165,000 miles on it and NEVER have I had to deal with points, and condensers. Not once. My 46 Roadmaster has electronics, as does my Limited and works great, i have no desire to go back.

Each to his/her own, I am not trying to change a single mind, just my observation.

Dale in Indy, aka Smitteeone

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A lot of times we overlook the complexity of our old cars. I once read a 1938 automotive trade magazine that speculated about how under-equipped a garage would be if they had closed in 1928 and reopened in '38. It was a good article.

The comment about calling for special tools got me rummaging through some pictures; like the one of my carb tools. I always seem to have pretty good "luck" with those old carbs:

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SO MOVING ON (from the pertronix debate)....

Mr Earl,

I can swap out the coil from another car, but let me work systemically and do one thing at a time, but sure I'll try it.

The only reason I brought it up twice is that that is how many times I replaced one on my 54 Special to discover that the newly bought one was also bad. I had been 'round and 'round with a new coil, new fuel pump, fuel filter, new wires, points and condenser, clothes pins on the fuel lines, every thing!! My "family mechanic" kept telling me "sounds like a bad coil to me". I finally swapped one from another car I knew was good and it never cut off when hot again.

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Smithbrother, you are absolutely right. Modern cars are a whole lot better and reliable than they were years ago (for the most part) - especially ignition. Plugs last 100, 000 + miles, they dont even HAVE distributors. Things are now computer controlled and tiny engines are putting out more horsepower with better mileage than the monsters of years ago. No carbs to fool with or get messed up. Engines go forever.

One other very significant factor - all that electronic stuff is a whole lot cheaper to manufacture. (Not maintain if it should break)

Would I be willing to go back - now way! Every time I drive in pouring rain or cold or in incredible heat I think - "what would this have been like in my 1918 Buick?. Or even the 38's?"

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Brian,

Concerning your choke mis-adjustment and consequential rich mixture....

Somewhere along the way, probably while still in service for Mayor LaGuardia in the NYC garage, my '37 Roadmaster 80C's automatic choke was disabled, and they installed a cable to manually operate the choke. I'm certainly not saying that this is THE right approach, but since it appears to have been that way since forever (based on the style of the knob and cable), and since it works flawlessly....why mess with success?

You might try temporarily disconnecting the automatic choke, and attach a cable to control the adjustment. If this solves the "Running Rich" mixture problem, either play with the auto-, or live with a cable and enjoy the scenery, like I do. I enjoy tinkering with my Buicks, but I LOVE driving them. !!

Marty

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Brian, I do not believe anyone has mentioned checking how much play may be in your distributor shaft. If you have enough side to side wobble, it can change the gap enough to make an engine miss. Many times I've see them worn enough to change the points from closed to more than full open just by moving it side to side. If so, it will need to have new bushings installed and fit. I do agree that the choke needs to be addressed also, and you have good advice on that already. Several older Vehicles that I have, or had in the past, back when electronic ignition was a new thing on common American built cars and trucks in the early to mid 70's , I have converted to points ignition as the electronic units of the day were not always that reliable. I have to agree, today, they have the bugs worked out quite well for the most part. I never installed a pertronix in anything. I never saw any really good reason to. Dandy Dave!

Edited by Dandy Dave (see edit history)
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