Would someone identify this engine please? ( G. B&S. Co Detroit)

I realize these pictures are not the clearest but can someone help me out with this please? I also realize the carburetor is not correct but does anyone have knowledge of this engine make, the B&S, correct carburetor, etc.?

Thanks in advance!!

(BTW, the last picture is of the oil gauges that were mounted on the dash that are fed by the oil pump on the L/F of the engine.)

Looks like a Hupmobile to me!

Hi All

I have no idea what the engine is but if someone has an oil sight gauge the same as the pair in the pics that they can spare, this is the one I am looking for, can anyone help

Regards Dave

Very close to a Hupmobile, but the Hupp has an oil box (gravity feed) on the R/H side . This one has an oil pump driven from the cam.

Interesting.

I agree with Mr. Butler that it does ressemble a Hup however doesn't the Hup's engine have the flywheel hanging off the front too? This one is in the back and has the fan blades cast into it?

Yes , a Hupp would have the flywheel .

Might be a Golden ,Belknap & Swartz engine. It you "google" it , they made engines for "obscure" makes of autos from 1910 to 1924.

Ken

Is what you have for sale? Mike

I dunno Mike. The owner abandoned the vehicle for over a decade and the building the car was stored in was damaged during a storm and has been setting outside for a couple years now. I'm not sure what the vehicle actually is though, ...and not sure the owner does either.

Friction drive trans, chain drive, 33" tall tires, and RHD. Any guesses?

Brent,

What is the bore and stroke, wheelbase? I would think the radiator shape would help with identification. Does the radiator have a radiator maker's tag? The engine could perhaps be misleading, could be a replacement engine, if it is indeed Hupp size then it would seem to be a little small for that chassis?

Brent,

What is the bore and stroke, wheelbase? I would think the radiator shape would help with identification. Does the radiator have a radiator maker's tag? The engine could perhaps be misleading, could be a replacement engine, if it is indeed Hupp size then it would seem to be a little small for that chassis?

The radiator did not have a tag that I could see, and as you can see it does not have the auto manufacturer's name stamped/embossed on it either.

I also do not know about the Bore & Stroke but I would date the engine as being somewhere in the 1910-12 range wouldn't you think? The 1910 date comes from the info I found on the G B&S Company began production in 1910. While the 'cast in pairs' technology on engines was certainly carried through the mid-teens, the open valves and the exposed flywheel was a product of the 1910-12 era I would think before being phased out in favor of closed chambers. The thermo-syphon (lack of a water pump) and the fan cast into the flywheel makes me think it is earlier in production, --however the use of an integral oil pump suggests it would have been an advanced engine for its time ...but again by it having the open valves and the low tension mag suggests that if it is early enough, that may have been typical technology during the time it was manufactured. As far as a later retrofit, the mounts for this engine are riveted into the frame as if to suggest that it was originally manufactured this way.

Looking at the rest of the vehicle, I would think that friction drive would be limited to a select few manufacturers during that era, ...and the use of chain drive rear axle assembly should help date it somewhat too. Also factor in the Right-Hand Drive steering and controls. When did RHD dissappear on most vehicles?

Hi Brent,

If this vehicle is going to be parted out I could use the chain drive axle from it? If you still have it and want to sell the axle let me know I need one like this for a project , although it might not make sence to part this out its a pretty complete car, just let me know Thank you Bob K

Hi All

If anyone can help, still looking for Oil Sight Gauge the same as in the bottom pic

Thanks Regards Dave

This shure looks like a 1905 Dolson !

Sizare Naudin, a small french car

Hi There

A chap in OZ has a 2cyl Sizare Naudin, the radiator would have similar features

The oil sight gauges are from a USA car

I am still looking for one of these oil sight gauges if anyone has one they are not using

Regards Dave

Sizare Naudin, a small french car

Looks different, to me. The radiator is completely different.

Lets bring this thread up out of the dungeon for another go of it.  Any thoughts now?

Going a different direction, lets assume I restored the car and want to register it for a show or tour, ....what name do I list on the application then??    (The old car with dementia that cannot remember what its name is!!)

The axles look similar to Weston-Mott axles on Buicks prior to 1910 +-.

I can't believe anyone would abandon this car, whatever it is. It is a very early car that has gone through a restoration in the recent past. Those tires look good. It must be relatively rare as no one here has identified it. Somebody needs to move that car inside and clean it up. It obviously is abandoned. Just my opinion.

Any chance we are looking at a movie prop made from some early parts?  

Just now, gossp said:

Any chance we are looking at a movie prop made from some early parts?  

I guess it is possible.  It sure seems like someone went to a huge amount of work just for a movie prop though. 

If so, why do you suppose they went to the trouble to use an open valve engine and a friction drive transmission and or chain drive rear end??  When you look closely at the frame, it seems like every bracket was cast or stamped to do the purpose in which it is doing.  Almost every bracket is riveted to the frame too.  Definitely a puzzler!

Just now, AHa said:

I can't believe anyone would abandon this car, whatever it is. It is a very early car that has gone through a restoration in the recent past. Those tires look good. It must be relatively rare as no one here has identified it. Somebody needs to move that car inside and clean it up. It obviously is abandoned. Just my opinion.

I totally understand and concur with your thoughts however while I cannot go into specific details, suffice it to say that sometimes things happen to an owner -and the heirs cannot agree with one another and so something sits 'abandoned' until it falls into such a state.  The vehicle is in my possession now out of the weather, however I am unsure of the future.

Ironically since this topic has resurfaced I will offer a little update.  The biggest issue I have encoutered is for the 'legal system' to recognize this as an automobile, you need some way to positively identify it.  Additionally as I understand it, you need some form of serial number or identifying data plate to specifically identify this vehicle as far as the courts or DMV, and an insurer is concerned.  Otherwise in their eyes it is nothing more than an assembled vehicle subject to current year model laws.  Adding to the confusion for the DMV, I feel confident in agreeing it was an "assembled vehicle" -as we all know that many other pre-teen vehicles were, however that does not help the titling dilemma.  So the bottom-line is, I would restore it and tour with it if I even knew a manufacturer to list it as, but without a identifiable vehicle title to show ownership, -and a legal way to insure the vehicle, I am not sure I want to sink $40k-$50k into the restoration just to call it garage art.

1 hour ago, BRENT in 10-uh-C said:

 

I guess it is possible.  It sure seems like someone went to a huge amount of work just for a movie prop though. 

 

If so, why do you suppose they went to the trouble to use an open valve engine and a friction drive transmission and or chain drive rear end??  When you look closely at the frame, it seems like every bracket was cast or stamped to do the purpose in which it is doing.  Almost every bracket is riveted to the frame too.  Definitely a puzzler!

The pieces (aside from the engine, radiator, and hood) look like lambert to me. (Roughly 1908) I don’t think Cartercar and it isn’t Metz. The radiator is not any friction drive car I know of and radiator hose situation isnt brass era (because they were virtually all straight in the brass era) This is a made up car.

My guess is the engine was a period replacement with the theatrical looking radiator and hood coming later. 

1904-1917 Lambert friction drive car perhaps

Just now, gossp said:

 

The pieces (aside from the engine, radiator, and hood) look like lambert to me. (Roughly 1908) I don’t think Cartercar and it isn’t Metz. The radiator is not any friction drive car I know of and radiator hose situation isnt brass era (because they were virtually all straight in the brass era) This is a made up car.

 

My guess is the engine was a period replacement with the theatrical looking radiator and hood coming later. 

Well, you both are possibly correct however I believe someone told me that all friction-drive Lamberts were dual chain drive.  As for the radiator hose situation, I believe if you look at a 1909 Hupmobile, you will see a strong similarity, and I have something else that may confirm it is correct. 

Also, the family was able to give me some chassis photos from the deceased that I think are definitely old.  If they are a re-created photograph, someone went way beyond photoshopping.  As I understand it, this vehicle was restored sometime in the mid to late 1950s.  I have not viewed the pictures in several years now but as I remember them, the picture is taken in a garage or small factory with the car laid up on it side and this has highwheeler wheels on it.  The radiator and engine is the same as is the chassis to what I have, ...and I think it shows it definitely not a made-up car from swap meet pieces.  My honest opinion is this was an attempt by a small start-up auto manufacturer as one of their first cars and they just purchased parts to assemble a prototype.  Again, I cannot prove this however when you look at many of the details, it just has the look of being in the 1908-ish era with the chain drive, RH drive, open valve etc.. 

The other thing that makes me wanna believe this timeframe is this.  One very unique item on this chassis is the engine is VERY similar to the 1909 Hupmobile Model 20 engine ...with the exception of the crankshaft, the flywheel, and the cast aluminum crankcase most notibly where the Hup transmission would mount.  The flywheel is on the opposite end, and the crank is a different length and configuration.  So is this the biggest clue?  Hup began in 1908 and likely did not have the funding for engine tooling, so did G B & S build this engine and then sell the rights to Hupmobile for use in their Model 20?  It is highly unlikely that someone like Hup would have cast a different crankcase and made a different crankshaft for their Model 20 engine just to sell to a competitor for their use, -and it is unlikely that G B & S would have copied Hup's design that closely to market for themselves without getting into piracy issues.  Notice in my pictures posted above the cast bronze covers that has the G B & S.  letters embossed on it.  So as you can tell, this one has been a mystery, and I have shown it to more than a handful of brass guys in person and they all are just as stumped as I on ID-ing it.  I have even thought about registering it as a Sine-Nomine and putting a brass S-N on the radiator.  At least with a title, I could feel good about beginning a restoration!

Well I decided to dig out some photographs and have a look again.  I apologize for me posting a picture of an old picture but I believe they are good enough where we can tell by the surroundings that these pictures are indeed old.  There are a few differences between the chassis in the picture vs. the one I have, and the wheels are different too.  I can only imagine these are old promo pictures where someone was using these to raise capitol for their new car manufacturing venture and they were taking these pictures around showing to potential investors.  If you look in the pictures, you will see they actually tipped the chassis on its side setting (balanced) on the floor.  Look at how the chain is drooping. Notice the radiator shape and the hoses. Again, I have no idea when these pictures were taken but based on the steering wheel location, the single chain drive, friction drive transmission and the high hard-rubber wheels, -I tend to think it fits within the era of 1908 or so.

(Kinda glad I dug these pix out as I am all excited again.)

 

Google ,a 1907 Lambert model f. Lambert cars were manufactured by the buckeye manufacturing company in Anderson Indiana,  hope this helps

I can't identify the automobile but G.B.&S. is Golden, Belknap & Swartz of Detroit. 

Most of the ads I have found are 1914 thru the early 20's and are for tractor or truck

motors though some did find their way into a few automobiles such as the Gem, Bell, Hackett

& Hatfield to name a few and apparently used in marine applications as well.

Lambert is interesting but they list it with a Rutenber motor

Interesting mystery!

Best regards,

Terry

If you know the previous owners name, you might find some information in the transportation dept, that is, if he ever had a title.It is possible this is the motor makers attempt at going into the car business. The date seems more reasonable. An earlier car would have brass inlet and outlet pipes. Trucks used gas lights way after cars were converted to electric, which would explain the forks for gas lights. I don't believe this is a made up car; it looks factory to me. Hope someone can help identify it.

would be interested in purchasing the car . 615-293-4569

Cartercar had a friction drive like this back then.  Beautiful little car.

I believe this car to be made by GJG in White Plains, NY. The Radiator is a very close match.