Any information on this Heath-Henderson engine would be great

I'm posting this for an elderly friend, (I am vehicle illiterate)

he needs help identifying this...

I was told it is a Heath-Henderson 4 cylinder b-4 pre 1930's.

Does it have any value?

Only a guess but I assume this is a Henderson motorcycle engine modified to power a light aircraft. One for the aviation expoerts.

Only a guess but I assume this is a Henderson motorcycle engine modified to power a light aircraft. One for the aviation expoerts.

Any idea where I can get some information about this?

I would second the aircraft answer as it appears that a propeller was mounted in front. Would have probably been installed in a homebuilt late twenties early thirties. Heath was a popular set of plans to build a homebuilt airplane. Don't have a clue how much it is worth but please don't junk it.

Do google sears on "heath henderson four cylinder engine".This`s what I get.And I`m quite sure the value is quite high on this engine.But don`t know how much.

Leif in Sweden Heath Henderson Powered Ice Sled - Wheels Through Time

It's based on a Henderson model K or De Luxe engine and would date from 1920 to 1928.

It's based on a Henderson model K or De Luxe engine and would date from 1920 to 1928.

Thank you, any idea if there is a market for it? if so where would it be?

Thank you, any idea if there is a market for it? if so where would it be?

I couldn't tell you a value, as a guess well into four figures. There certainly is a market for it -I'd think there would be a lot of people after it. I'd put it on ebay, or perhaps in a motorcycle auction, like Bonhams or RM's.

There was what was advertised as a Henderson that had an aircraft conversion, sold last year by Auctions America.

http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=LH11&ID=r1352&Order=alphabetical&feature=grouping=

This one maybe not the best example, as it isn't actually a Henderson engine (it's an Ace), and this particular auction had a few of the lots that sold for extremely big money on the day. But, it may give you an idea to your engines value, and I wouldn't be giving your engine away for nothing.

I couldn't tell you a value, as a guess well into four figures. There certainly is a market for it -I'd think there would be a lot of people after it. I'd put it on ebay, or perhaps in a motorcycle auction, like Bonhams or RM's.

There was what was advertised as a Henderson that had an aircraft conversion, sold last year by Auctions America.

Auctions America - Collector Car Auctions

This one maybe not the best example, as it isn't actually a Henderson engine (it's an Ace), and this particular auction had a few of the lots that sold for extremely big money on the day. But, it may give you an idea to your engines value, and I wouldn't be giving your engine away for nothing.

So what would i label this is as? Henderson Model K with aircraft conversion dating 1920-28? I appreciate all the help just really want to make sure he doesn't get ripped off

So what would i label this is as? Henderson Model K with aircraft conversion dating 1920-28? I appreciate all the help just really want to make sure he doesn't get ripped off<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

That would work, I'd also put "motorcycle" in the title as well.

The value of this is not as an aircraft collectible as there are quite a few of them around and most museums that collect that sort of thing rely on donations. The value is in parts for running Hendersons that many of us bike guys ride every day including several deluxes that made it from Newburg New York to San Francisco fault free in the Cannonball last September .That said the crankcases are now only good to weld back together with a donor transmission and it has and will be done in the future before new cases become available. More people are realizing what great bikes Henderson 4's are and were. I knew ( all now unfortunately deceased) many first time owners of these bikes who always claimed they were the best of all the fours. If I had that engine the first thing I would do is remove one cylinder and look down the bore to see if it is Ricardo . If it is you hit a home run as these are highly sought after. I have Ricardo cylinders in my 1927 rig pictured here. It has lots of power. If you want to avoid Ebay fees and headaches ( and who doesn't?) advertise it for free on The KJ Exchange. All the hard core Henderson guys frequent that site.

Barry - awesome bike and excellent photo! What a beast.

Chuck

The value of this is not as an aircraft collectible as there are quite a few of them around and most museums that collect that sort of thing rely on donations. The value is in parts for running Hendersons that many of us bike guys ride every day including several deluxes that made it from Newburg New York to San Francisco fault free in the Cannonball last September .That said the crankcases are now only good to weld back together with a donor transmission and it has and will be done in the future before new cases become available. More people are realizing what great bikes Henderson 4's are and were. I knew ( all now unfortunately deceased) many first time owners of these bikes who always claimed they were the best of all the fours. If I had that engine the first thing I would do is remove one cylinder and look down the bore to see if it is Ricardo . If it is you hit a home run as these are highly sought after. I have Ricardo cylinders in my 1927 rig pictured here. It has lots of power. If you want to avoid Ebay fees and headaches ( and who doesn't?) advertise it for free on The KJ Exchange. All the hard core Henderson guys frequent that site.

This is extremely helpful I will have him remove a cylinder and check, either way i'll look into selling at The KJ Exchange.

When you get a cylinder off shine a light up the bore . Here are the Ricardo cylinders on my bike. You can clearly see the step in the dome area of the combustion chamber. No step, not Ricardo. Also of value to Hen people is the T4x carb if the venturi has not swollen and destroyed the brass body. New venturis are available. but the body may be hard to reclaim.

I would disagree that the value of this engine is for use as a motorcycle engine. The whole back part of the crankcase has been sawed off and the flywheel removed. A special cover only used ti the aircraft conversion has been installed. This is not a home conversion of a motorcycle engine, it is a Henderson engine that was specially modified by Heath for aircraft use and has never been in a motorcycle. The crankshaft has been modified and special bearings are used that increase the oil pressure. Horsepower is increased from 23 to 27. The heath super parasol homebuilt aircraft that Heath modified these engines for were never all that common and I would suggest that this engine would be better off in a museum than used for parts for a motorcycle. As an aircraft engine it is mostly complete. It would be fairly expensive to modify back to something that could be used in a motorcycle. I am sure that the motorcycles are really neat machines and would be a lot of fun but I would keep this engine as it was built, for an airplane.

Interesting . I assume you have documentation showing that Schwinn actually sold complete engines WHEN NEW sans motorcycle to Heath so they could be modified. I would like to see proof of that.

In a perfect world we would all be well off enough to be philanthropists and donate our stuff to museums were it would gather dust . Heaths I have seen don't sell for much but as I said if the cylinders are Ricardo and the carb good they will be worth at least double and maybe more than the value of the engine as a stagnant artifact. Just my opinion. May I suggest if you feel so strongly about it why not buy it and donate it to a museum yourself and help the elderly man out? I would be interested in buying it myself for spares for my bike if no one else wants it .

Interesting . I assume you have documentation showing that Schwinn actually sold complete engines WHEN NEW sans motorcycle to Heath so they could be modified. I would like to see proof of that.

In a perfect world we would all be well off enough to be philanthropists and donate our stuff to museums were it would gather dust . Heaths I have seen don't sell for much but as I said if the cylinders are Ricardo and the carb good they will be worth at least double and maybe more than the value of the engine as a stagnant artifact. Just my opinion. May I suggest if you feel so strongly about it why not buy it and donate it to a museum yourself and help the elderly man out? I would be interested in buying it myself for spares for my bike if no one else wants it .

Putting it in a museum in all would be great but the whole purpose of this was to get some money for his kids before he passes so it just doesn't get junked when he sells the house

I don't have strong evidence That Schwinn provided Heath with brand new engines but heath sold converted engines. In order to convert the engines he cut off the back of the Henderson engine, removed the flywheel and installed a new cover piece with a special thrust bearing for the propeller. The bearings were changed to a closed oiling system and the crankshaft was machined to accept an extension. Heath also made the exhaust trumpets. He advertised these engines in "Modern Mechanix and Inventions" from 1929 to 1933. It would be awfully expensive to junk a lot of motorcycles with the deluxe Henderson K motors that would be pretty new at this time when the whole idea was to get an inexpensive airplane that didn't use high priced aviation motors. I am not suggesting that the fellow should donate it to a museum unless that is what he wants to do. I am suggesting that it would belong in a museum and would better preserve history this way. Museums have been known to buy exhibits on occasion. Obviously Mr. Brown you think it would be better served as parts for your motorcycle. If you buy it, feel free to do with it what you wish. If I was to buy it, I would do the same and don't want to tell other people what they should or should not do with things that they purchase. I assume that the engine will follow the money. Mr. Brown, I assume you have some knowledge about what one of these things is worth and no one else has given Mabzynn an answer on this. I would guess that the value is somewhere in the middle four figures but don't really know. What would be your guess.

Nickelroadster, I really don't give a hoot what happens to this engine and my response was merely to inform as to it's potential value. I have seen Heath engines as recently as 2 years ago a hard sell at $2000. If your information is correct and Heath built them from 29 to 33 my guess is they were using ,used probably ex Police bikes as a source of donor engines since this was probably Schwinn's biggest Henderson market . In 1929 the new IOE model came out, much improved over the sidevalve Deluxe which was used for the Heath engines. As far as your description of the mods the 1920's Deluxe came from the factory with a full pressure fed crank so what a "closed oil system" signifies is a mystery. Please elaborate on what are "special bearings" . Sounds to me like you have no first hand experience with these engines . Could it be you are merely regurgitating some ad hype you read on the net from an old brochure ? There are plenty of these engines in museums already so it would be no loss to the world wherever it goes. The Heath episode was a 'lash up" at best and not worthy of the historical significance you are trying to ascribe to it.

Someone just posted 3 Heath engines on the KJ site!

Mr. Brown. Obviously we have a difference of opinion, a disagreement. This doesn't mean that we should be disagreeable. Sounds to me like you don't take kindly to someone not having the same opinion as you. We should not forget why we are posting here in the first place which is to try and help someone come up with a value for his engine and give some information on it. I believe that we have given him some information but not really much on the value. It may be that something of this nature has a broad range of what it would sell for. If it is only two thousand dollars, I may take you up on your suggestion to buy it and donate it

You are correct in the engine having full pressure lubrication but at a fairly low pressure. The differing conditions of an aviation engine (long periods at one rpm and different attitudes) made it necessary to make different rod and main bearings that would hold around 75 lbs of pressure. I have never heard the term "closed bearings" used but it is the term that heath used to describe the modifications to the bearings. You say that thee are plenty of these engines in museums already. What is plenty and in which museums? How can you decide what is historical and what is not worth attention. Some people think aviation history is just as important as that of cars and motorcycles. Certainly there are many items that were not considered important for our vehicles fifty years ago that we now think are important.

What is the KJ site you are referring to? Also, a question for Mabzynn. You haven't shown the other side of the engine. Is there a magneto? If there is what is the brand?

You have been taken in by the ad hype concerning bearings. The oil pumps on Hendersons and Indian fours are adjustable for pressure. All properly line bored mains will hold over 150 pounds if so desired and I speak from first hand experience. Google aircraft museums and you will see lots of Heaths scattered about gathering dust. Go to the webpage "KJ EXCHANGE" and you will see 3 for sale right now. Buy and donate to your heart's content!

Museums are mausoleums. I'd rather see one more Henderson, on the road, than an engine, on a stand, roped off in some museum

Check out Leno's. I think he has three of them.

Jay does an excellent job with his videos. He told me when he bought his barrel bodied Duesenberg the guy threw in 30 motorcycles including THAT original paint Henderson!

Speaking of crimes of museums the very first Henderson ( 1912 belt drive) is in the Museum of Science and Industry Chicago where it is hidden away where nobody can see it.

Mr. Brown. Obviously we have a difference of opinion, a disagreement. This doesn't mean that we should be disagreeable. Sounds to me like you don't take kindly to someone not having the same opinion as you. We should not forget why we are posting here in the first place which is to try and help someone come up with a value for his engine and give some information on it. I believe that we have given him some information but not really much on the value. It may be that something of this nature has a broad range of what it would sell for. If it is only two thousand dollars, I may take you up on your suggestion to buy it and donate it

You are correct in the engine having full pressure lubrication but at a fairly low pressure. The differing conditions of an aviation engine (long periods at one rpm and different attitudes) made it necessary to make different rod and main bearings that would hold around 75 lbs of pressure. I have never heard the term "closed bearings" used but it is the term that heath used to describe the modifications to the bearings. You say that thee are plenty of these engines in museums already. What is plenty and in which museums? How can you decide what is historical and what is not worth attention. Some people think aviation history is just as important as that of cars and motorcycles. Certainly there are many items that were not considered important for our vehicles fifty years ago that we now think are important.

What is the KJ site you are referring to? Also, a question for Mabzynn. You haven't shown the other side of the engine. Is there a magneto? If there is what is the brand?

I'm honestly not sure, I'm having him take more pictures and having him check for Ricardo cylinder's this weekend as well. Unfortunately I'm located at Fort Benning while "he" and the engine are back in upstate new york.