StillOutThere Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Because new people read this forum all the time, I'd like to re-ask an age old question: What if anything is known about the experimental car shown in Hudson's shops in 1934 in the attached photo? Are there any other photos? Is there a quality, unblurred print of this photo that I have not seen? Anything known about the drive train or wheelbase of this car?Really the only comment I would have is that we know Hudson under Frank Spring was giving serious consideration (as was the whole industry) to applying aerodynamic principles to their cars. In fact I have some comments in an article from Spring about applying aero to the '34 models. Was this car an advanced study project?One of these days someone will know. Perhaps one of these days that very construct will come out of an old garage built like a vault! Well, we can hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Because new people read this forum all the time, I'd like to re-ask an age old question: What if anything is known about the experimental car shown in Hudson's shops in 1934 in the attached photo? Are there any other photos? Is there a quality, unblurred print of this photo that I have not seen? Anything known about the drive train or wheelbase of this car?Really the only comment I would have is that we know Hudson under Frank Spring was giving serious consideration (as was the whole industry) to applying aerodynamic principles to their cars. In fact I have some comments in an article from Spring about applying aero to the '34 models. Was this car an advanced study project?One of these days someone will know. Perhaps one of these days that very construct will come out of an old garage built like a vault! Well, we can hope.Hy StillOutThereI found the following:Arthur H. Kibiger was the chief-assistant of Frank Spring, who founded the Hudson styling departement in 1932.The car in the patent drawing is rear engine drive. A. H. Kibiger, who was later in the sixties AMC design chief, and in the 50's working at Kaiser-Willys joined Hudson in 1934.Maybe he brought this concept in. The patent of this car was refused (I suppose), but the time is about right. My name is Mike and I dissolved another enigma over at the Packard forum. And I found a Packard HEMI engine design too, with staggered valves like the Chevy big block, from the early 50's, that nobody ever had seen. Mike Edited January 2, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hubler Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Kibiger's drawing looks a lot like the 1933 Pierce Arrow Silver Arrow, and has some cross design with the 1934 Studebaker Land Cruiser as well, which were both in the same company of cars at that time I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 The Kibiger car has a rear engine and rear wheel drive, like the early Briggs (Ford) Zephyr, some prototype variants of the Chrysler Airflow, or the Hoffman X8. Maybe it was a counterpart from Hudson. Has anybody a curricullum vitae of Arthur H. Kibiger? I doesn't know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hubler Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 This is one of the Kibiger Hudson concepts that I was aware of. http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990445269073/1969-03_MT_WWII_Hudson_Concept_Cars_1-3.pdf The car concept you show may be a "project 5" car? http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/step-down-hudsons/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Very interesting article about Hudson in WW2 and Frank Spring and Arthur Kibiger. About seven years after taking of the photographic enigma. Maybe the prototype of 1934 was still in the experimental departement or on the famous roof of the R&D building. The author of the article Michael Lamm is the founder of Special Interest Autos, maybe the best car magazine.I'm interested to know, where Arthur Kibiger earlier was working and on what, before he came to Hudson? Or does anybody have more interesting articles about Hudson Research & Development? Edited January 2, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Last night I was reading some articles of Bernie Siegfried in the White Triangle. At part 1 I found the following:He talks about a prototype rear engined car on the roof of the experimental building.Now we have 2 primary sources: 1. The picture from the engineering building2. The patent drawingand one secondary source, the report from Mr. Bernie Siegfried.Enigma solved I suppose.The car on the picture is a 1934 Hudson rear-engine prototype. Mike Edited January 16, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillOutThere Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 And then there is this plaster model, believed to be a Frank Spring design dating back to the era. There is no exacting documentation with it however. Looks very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Hy StillOutThere,your model looks like an 8-seater limo, maybe with a V12 front engine. See my other post about the Vee-engine. The design of this model maybe was designed in the second half of the 1930's. See the Graham shark nose below, started by Amos Northup 1935.Have a nice evening!Mike Edited February 3, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Hy StillOutThere,some new information from the HUDSON twilight zone.This photo is from an old Budd Company photo album, about the Hoffman X8 (a Roscoe C. Hoffman prototype maybe built for the Fisher Boys).Maybe a Frank Spring design.After Fred and Charles retired, the old urge to go into independent auto manufacture re-entered the thinking of the four remaining Fisher brothers. They talked among themselves about acquiring control of the Hudson Motor Car Co. With the Hudson acquisition in mind, the Fishers commissioned Roscoe C. (Rod) Hoffman, a consulting engineer in Detroit, to design and build several rear-engined prototypes for possible eventual production as Hudsons. World War II interrupted these plans. (Source:www:coachbuilt.com, Fisher Body Company)Please see the following link:http://citroenvie.com/what-did-citroen-know-about-the-1935-hoffman-x-8/Chris Edited February 3, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillOutThere Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 flier24, you have signed "Mike" and also "Chris". What ever. Thank you for posting. I've updated Myron Vernis, owner of the Hoffman to the comments. More information is always better ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Hy StillOutThereSorry for the names, my name is Chris. You know Mr. Vernis?By the way, I found a patent drawing from Josef Ledwinka. Maybe it is the Hoffman X8 on the drawing, please look at the outlines of the mirrored doors and the chassis.Chris Edited February 6, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillOutThere Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Chris, Mr. Vernis will be reviewing this thread, with your posts, soon. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hy StillOutTherenews from the HUDSON twilight zone!Charles T. Fisher, who presumably commissioned Roscoe C. (Rod) Hoffman to build the X8 prototype.And his former estate in Detroit.The Charles T. Fisher mansion.See this link: http://www.hourdetroit.com/core/pagetools.php?pageid=6591&url=/Hour-Detroit/December-2011/Once-Upon-Detroit-Renovating-the-Charles-T-Fisher-Mansion/&mode=print Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Hy StillOutThere!Please contact Mr. Vernis about the following information:There is a BUDD Company historical file in the Hagley Museum and Library in Wilmington, Delaware.It contains among other things a box with documents about car bodies from 1929 until 1954.Maybe there is more information about the X8.Link: http://findingaids.hagley.org/xtf/view?docId=ead/2411.xmlChris Edited February 14, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) See an interesting link from Budd Company, maybe shortly after the X8 project, in the fall of 1936 Gordon Buehrig left Auburn-Cord and got the job at Budd.See the movie!Many similarities to the X8.http://theoldmotor.com/?p=128950Chris Edited February 17, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Some photos taken from the short movie strip:I'm thinking we were back at the start again! Probably the 1934 prototype Hudson from the experimental garage is constructed from Budd Company too.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillOutThere Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Flier24, I am encouraged and excited by your ongoing research and interest. We await comments from the Hoffman owner which might add structure and direction to these discoveries.May I ask your personal interest or background regarding Hudson-related?Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Thank you very much! StillOutThere.I always thought that Hudson and Packard were the best cars. If HUDSON and Packard had survived, there had been reliable and more modern american cars 20 years erlier. Independent rear axles, 16-valve technology, front wheel drive, ABS (Chrysler 1971!), air-bags (GM 1973!). But this was a road not taken, Bernie Siegfried wrote in his letters, the reason was no young enthusiasm and problems with refinancing.But the real reason is, I'm thinking, HUDSON and Packard loose almost all defence contracts, because an ex-GM man was sitting in Washington.I got knowledge of the X8, when I have read the Special Interest Article from Michael Lamm.I'm always interested what was (or is) going on in the experimental departements of the car companies. Most notably the race experimental departement (1950s - 1970s).Best documented is Chevrolet with the book of Paul VanValkenburg.For the other companies , we have to search deeper and longer, and need sometimes a little luck!Chris Edited February 18, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The model pictured in post #17 is identified as Gordon Buehrig's design for the "Wowser" while he was employed by Budd for a short time after ACD. Photos are found on page 113 of the book Rolling Sculpture, A Designer and His Work by Gordon M. Buehrig with William S. Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Headlights faired into the hood sides1933 Briggs Manufacturing mock-up for Plymouth by Holden Koto, who worked there from 1933 - 1939. (Source: SIA #32 page 42, Living with Style by Michael Lamm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flier24 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Does anybody have a front rendering of this Plymouth mock-up? Edited February 20, 2015 by flier24 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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